Falcon and The Winter Soldier: These Turkish Delights Have Violent Ends (Spoilers)

[briantw]

57 minutes ago, mormont said:

The bank official, on recognising Sam but not being able to place him, immediately assumes Sam must be an athlete. Why? Because Sam is black, and in his head, famous black person = athlete. Racial stereotyping.

To be honest, I just completely forgot about the athlete thing.  It's been six weeks since I've seen the first episode and all I remembered was them being denied the loan.

[Lord of Rhinos]

When this series works it is because it has good production values, talented actors, moves quick, and raises interesting questions.

When it doesn't work it is because the writing isn't interested in exploring those ideas and it is so interested in moving fast that those ideas are never given proper characterization or motivation.

Major problems:

Why does Bucky need to make amends?  He wasn't responsible for what he did as the Winter Soldier. The show seems to want to exist in a Schrodinger's box of Bucky being both innocent and guilty of what the Winter Soldier did.

The show tackling issues it isn't equipped to handle.  The bank loan is the obvious example.  Sam Wilson is one of the most famous people on the planet.  He could make hundreds of thousands showing up for night club openings or sponsored twitter posts.  If someone like Hilary Clinton can get a book advance worth millions of dollars Sam Wilson can get the same. 

The show's weird take on Captain America.  The show wants to be about what it means to the public to be Captain America but at the same time never actually wants to establish what the public thinks of Captain America. I mean what did the public think about Captain American becoming a fugitive for years?  What did the public think about Steve Rogers being pardoned (way the heck did Cap and the other fugitives get pardoned but Sharon never was)? During the 5 years of the blip did Rogers function as Captain America or did he just lead support groups?  What does the world thinks happened to Rogers after Avengers Endgame?

Every thing to do with Sharon Carter.  Nothing about her story arc tracks with what happened in earlier films.  Nothing about her story arc in this series makes sense.  If she's the powerbroker why is she murdering night club managers and putting out hits on herself. Why is she leading Sam and Bucky to her employee that makes super soldier serum (i.e. the single employee that is making the most valuable product on the planet).

 

 

[DMC]

2 hours ago, Lord of Rhinos said:

Why does Bucky need to make amends?  He wasn't responsible for what he did as the Winter Soldier. The show seems to want to exist in a Schrodinger's box of Bucky being both innocent and guilty of what the Winter Soldier did.

I don't agree that it's a "Schrodinger's box."  I think the show does a good job making it clear - for the US government pardoning him, his subsequent therapist, Sam, and even himself - that while Bucky is not "responsible" IRT he didn't intend to do anything he did as Winter Soldier, he still remembers what he did and therefore will never get over it until he "makes amends" a la his 12-step-program-esque process.

OTOH, couldn't agree more with your other three points or major problems (the show tackling issues it couldn't really handle, never even really addressing what the public's perception is of Captain America, and Carter's dumbfounding role).

[polishgenius]

2 hours ago, Lord of Rhinos said:

What does the world thinks happened to Rogers after Avengers Endgame?

 

Much of your point is salient but they talked about this. They don't know and are confused and some of them think he's on the moon. But they know he's gone.

[Heartofice]

Oh this show was pretty disappointing. 

I think it had a lot of promise, but I think I mentioned it before, it tries to cram too much into a really short run time. It didn't do any of it's themes justice, it skimmed over pretty much every single characters issues or backstories, and it meant I didn't care about anyone.

Thats the problem, there is just too much going on, too many story threads, too many characters, and not enough focus on what is important. It also means that the stuff that should be important, comes out of nowhere or is thrown at you. 

I was just bored through most of it. The show didn't really have any sort of compelling plot to get me engaged. It was all over the place. Was i supposed to care or even understand what was going on with the Powerbroker / Sharon. Honestly I probably missed quite a bit because I couldn't stay focused.

This show was a real missed opportunity, it didn't do anything justice. It botched the race element by barely illustrating it outside of some 'moving' speeches, it botched pretty much every characters arc by not spending any time on it or even giving them actual arcs, I thought Sam's new costume was ridiculous looking, the entire plot with the Flag Smashers was so dull and they were horrible antagonists. 

On the plus side, there were a couple of cool fight scenes and Zemo was fun. Outside of that this was entirely forgettable. 
 

[Which Tyler]

The Flagsmashers...
It's almost like the show was being written as they went, reacting to viewer comments; rather than written as a coherent show.
They started off way too sympathetic, and frankly right. They were a group of people providing medicines and food for refugees - and... that was about it. The only clue that they were even bad guys was that the actors were allowed their natural accents rather than putting on generic USA-ish versions the MCU's other overseas actors have to try.
Then they realised, so had a few random murders thrown in, for no reason at all, other than reduce audience sympathy. It didn't work, and they were still too sympathetic, so they had to go further still in establishing their evil credentials. Of course, they were still right though.

 

Sharon and the powerbroker seemed entirely superfluous, and merely stole time from the actual storyline - presumably she was thrown in here to set her up for future films (which will explain things anyway for non-show watchers).

 

The racism aspect was probably handled about right, given that there are complaints about being too subtle as well as being too obvious (too subtle? really?)

 

Shield physics and Marvel forgetting what's physically possible for an unenhanced human are things I hate, and have hated since Cap1. It's well established, but I will continue to hate it, mostly quietly.

 

Overall, very much lower Marvel fare; some (very) good promise in the themes let down by (presumably) servicing future story lines; and what I'm going to put down to a lack of talent (or at least, lack of depth of talent) in the writing room.

[Heartofice]

I think you could argue that the race thing was both too subtle and not subtle enough all at the same time. It felt like the show was dancing around it at times, too scared to say what people are actually talking about, whilst also then throwing in explosive speeches about race that seem to come out of nowhere. Then those speeches don’t feel coherent with the rest of the story, and the whole race thing feels tacked on.

As for the flag smashers, I long gave up caring what they were fighting for, what should have been an interesting and complex issue , was never really done justice because they mostly talked about the situation rather than showing it. It also didn’t help that having a bunch of annoying middle class kids be the main antagonist meant i was just hoping they’d all get a punch in the jaw the whole time

[Spockydog]

The suit looks awful. Why is there so much white? Especially around the head. Hmm?

[Liffguard]

I'm getting old I think. Give me scenes of characters just talking to each other and interacting with the world as people, and I'm hooked. Once the fireworks start, I get bored and zone out. All the best scenes were Sam and Bucky at home, Sam talking to Isaiah etc.

[Heartofice]

10 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

The suit looks awful. Why is there so much white? Especially around the head. Hmm?

It was the headwear that really bothered me. The goggles look kinda nerdy , the wierd way it just cuts off and there is nothing on top of his head. It’s a weird concept.

 

[DaveSumm]

2 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

It was the headwear that really bothered me. The goggles look kinda nerdy , the wierd way it just cuts off and there is nothing on top of his head. It’s a weird concept.

 

Yea I realised that’s what bugged me: why does enhanced Steve Rogers need head protection but regular Sam Wilson (who’s also much more likely to be travelling faster and at height due to the wings) need none? Just give him the whole helmet surely? And white is purely just to look like the comics I guess, which is fair enough. I’d have preferred blue, as it stands it look like an upgraded Falcon suit with a star in the middle.

On the flag smashers: it would’ve been great to open the show with a scene where a family are having dinner in their home or whatever, when suddenly the family who used to live there reappeared. In the moment, the newcomers have no idea it’s been 5 years just like Monica, and are all “dude, get the fuck out of my house”. But they’ll have roots there, neighbours, they’ll have rebuilt the community as best they can and have more affinity for this community than the newcomers ever did. Move forward a few weeks and we see these same people being forcefully removed back across a border or whatever, and we totally sympathise ... which is when the Flag Smashers attack the operation and they can flee back to where they came. Then the viewer understands what they’re fighting for, and we can see their point of view, and a glimpse of the life it was that they trying to defend. Then make this the scene where Falcon shows up, thinking he’s just battling terrorists, before he understands why they’re doing what they’re doing.

[Spockydog]

20 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

It was the headwear that really bothered me. The goggles look kinda nerdy , the wierd way it just cuts off and there is nothing on top of his head. It’s a weird concept.

 

Marvel exec 1: Hmmm. Are we sure America is ready for this?

Marvel exec 2: Ready for what?

Marvel exec 1: A black Captain America.

Marvel exec 2: Now that you mention it, not a fucking chance.

Marvel exec 1: Oh shit. We've already written a really boring, nonsensical script. What are we going to do?

Marvel exec 2: We'll put him in a suit that is so white, half of America won't even notice that he's black.

 

 

[sifth]

2 hours ago, Liffguard said:

I'm getting old I think. Give me scenes of characters just talking to each other and interacting with the world as people, and I'm hooked. Once the fireworks start, I get bored and zone out. All the best scenes were Sam and Bucky at home, Sam talking to Isaiah etc.

Tell me about it, the episode that had Sam and Bucky fix the boat was easily my favorite. The action packed ones like the one we got on Friday just bored me. I think I spent most of the episode reading emails, because I was so uninterested.

[Corvinus85]

2 hours ago, Spockydog said:

Marvel exec 1: Hmmm. Are we sure America is ready for this?

Marvel exec 2: Ready for what?

Marvel exec 1: A black Captain America.

Marvel exec 2: Now that you mention it, not a fucking chance.

Marvel exec 1: Oh shit. We've already written a really boring, nonsensical script. What are we going to do?

Marvel exec 2: We'll put him in a suit that is so white, half of America won't even notice that he's black.

 

 

The suit matches the comic book suit. So start the blame game there.

The headwear part does look goofy, and not very comfortable. I'm ok with the rest of it. 

[Spockydog]

12 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

The suit matches the comic book suit. So start the blame game there.

 

What about the tedious, nonsensical plot? Who do we blame for that? 

[sifth]

39 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

What about the tedious, nonsensical plot? Who do we blame for that? 

I'm still confused in regards to what the villains wanted. Something about a world without borders, because they were happier when half the population on Earth was dead. I apologize if I'm wrong, but I found the plot of this show so confusing I honestly can't remember it.

[Spockydog]

Yes, this was so poorly written. Probably the worst MCU thingy since Iron Man 2.

In terms of the writing, red flags went flying up for me when Sam, an Avenger, one of the most famous men on the planet and a saviour of the Universe, was absolutely skint and couldn't get a bank loan to buy a shitty boat. 

I mean, come the fuck on. 

 

 

[mormont]

9 hours ago, Lord of Rhinos said:

The bank loan is the obvious example.  Sam Wilson is one of the most famous people on the planet.  He could make hundreds of thousands showing up for night club openings or sponsored twitter posts.  If someone like Hilary Clinton can get a book advance worth millions of dollars Sam Wilson can get the same.

Yeah, but this is missing the point. Sam doesn’t need to do these things. Financially, he can afford the loan. He has government contracts that should cover the repayments. The banker is not genuinely turning Sam down because he’s broke. That is the point of the scene!

If your complaint with the scene is that it doesn’t make sense that Sam didn’t get the loan, then the scene worked. You just come at it from a place of privilege.

[Spockydog]

14 minutes ago, mormont said:

If your complaint with the scene is that it doesn’t make sense that Sam didn’t get the loan, then the scene worked. You just come at it from a place of privilege.

I understood what they were trying to say in that scene. But like much of the writing throughout the show, it was poorly handled and just didn't make any sense. 

If Sam was so desperate to help his sister, why didn't he? Why does he need to go cap in hand to the man, when he can just ring up Jimmy Fallon and get his hair ruffled for a million bucks?

 

[RumHam]

53 minutes ago, sifth said:

I'm still confused in regards to what the villains wanted. Something about a world without borders, because they were happier when half the population on Earth was dead. I apologize if I'm wrong, but I found the plot of this show so confusing I honestly can't remember it.

I never thought about it before but it's funny that they basically thought Thanos was right. Sort of. 

I guess the idea was that there were a lot of refugees who were unwanted by developed nations. Then the snap happened and the developed nations wanted people to keep things going so they accepted the remaining refugees and in general there was more international cooperation and less nationalism. Then the snapped people came back and everyone was like "yaaay lets go back to the way things were....oh wait there's a former refugee living in your house and working your job? I guess they'll have to go." 

Also you'd think there would be massive food shortages when everyone returned after five years but I don't remember them touching on that. 

4 hours ago, Spockydog said:

The suit looks awful. Why is there so much white? Especially around the head. Hmm?

I wondered for a second if Shuri was making a little joke there about the whiteness of America but then I saw that's just how it looks in the comics.