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Falcon and The Winter Soldier: These Turkish Delights Have Violent Ends (Spoilers)


Corvinus85

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6 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

The time machine itself was destroyed, Tony is dead, and Banner is too honorable to unleash time travel on the world. Now Rocket OTOH...

Plus, as we will soon learn in the Loki series, there is this organization called the Timekeepers who presumably don't want people messing with time travel.

Someone else should be able to figure it out though. Just as Stoll's character eventually figured out pym particles. and I'm assuming Tony "invented" nano-tech without any help from Shuri. 

It would be funny if they casually reveal that the Wakandans have known how to time travel since like the 80's. 

I'm curious what Ant-Man 3 has to say about the quantum realm and all that. 

2 hours ago, Karlbear said:

Well, that I  think is explained with the 'everyone is back and okay', so while they might return comically they wouldn't be hurt when they return. 

The mechanics are the least interesting part to me, though. It's much more of a 'you disappear for 5 years along with 50% of the world - and then come back. What do they react like? What has happened in a close to apocalypse? What do politics or the economy or infrastructure look like? 

Define "ok"? Like imagine two planets consolidating after the snap the way countries on apparently earth did. Are the stones smart enough to not return people to an abandoned planet where they would die days or weeks later? 

What if the planet was destroyed? They just get deposited on the closest habitable planet? 

What if you were not "okay" before? There had to be someone who was bleeding to death and then turned to dust. 

I would love a "Nora from the Leftover's job" show where she goes around investigating these kinda things. 

And of course like her husband remarried and her kids seem afraid of her since she got back. etc... 

 

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1 hour ago, RumHam said:

What if you were not "okay" before? There had to be someone who was bleeding to death and then turned to dust.

We saw a hint of that in Monica's flashback during WandaVision . As she's trying to get her bearings the hospital staff is panicking because a bunch of old patients just materialized.

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12 minutes ago, Lord of Rhinos said:

We saw a hint of that in Monica's flashback during WandaVision . As she's trying to get her bearings the hospital staff is panicking because a bunch of old patients just materialized.

Right but are they cured? That's my question.

Though I was thinking more "the snapped individual was bleeding out" than "the snapped individual had cancer." 

are there patch notes?
 

Quote

 

"nerfed Chernobyl spiders."

"Issues relating to a mutant X gene have been corrected"

 

 

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5 hours ago, Karlbear said:

Hell, think about what kind of tech people were using back in 2016 that we're doing now in 2021. Maybe the people of 2023 could actually buy a graphics card!

In the 5 years of the blip they'd actually managed to ban/stomp out bitcoin, and with the reduced electricity demand from half the population vanishing the world finally made significant strides with transitioning to a renewable electricity grid. With the returnees convinced they need to have some sort of hustle to recover economically from the blip a bunch go hard on bitcoin resulting in an even greater impact on the electricity grid which no longer has the coal etc plants necessary for the peak load AND caused the graphics card prices to spike again. 

Now there's fertile ground for some drama :P 

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3 hours ago, Lord of Rhinos said:

It is as serious as post arguing about a fictional public's reaction to a fictional character should be.

Well if you're gonna go that route not only is this whole thread ridiculous but this entire forum.

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39 minutes ago, DMC said:

Well if you're gonna go that route not only is this whole thread ridiculous but this entire forum.

Wait am I not real? I thought so but no one wants to talk about it. 

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7 hours ago, RumHam said:

I would love a "Nora from the Leftover's job" show where she goes around investigating these kinda things. 

I’d be way more excited about Black Widow if it was set between Infinity War and Endgame. Plenty for her to be doing in the time period, and she seems to have become the leader of the Avengers (if that’s what they are at the time) in dishing out the responsibilities. Sadly, it doesn’t quite work with her character as she isn’t doing well after the five year gap, so it’s hard to see how they could close out her entire character when they have to leave her destined to get gradually worse. It’d have to be a downbeat ending.

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1 hour ago, Werthead said:

Hmm.

Is it wrong that I kinda did like him? He was almost giddy about becoming US Agent. it was pretty dorky. 

Killing a "terrorist" after watching your childhood friend be killed isn't thaaaat terrible. It's weird though because they really played it like he was turning evil when he was yelling at the committee and lying to lamarr's parents about who killed their son. There was something ominous about that post-credits scene of him hammering his knock off shield. 

And then he shows up in the finale and is good! weird. 

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11 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Is it wrong that I kinda did like him? He was almost giddy about becoming US Agent. it was pretty dorky. 

Killing a "terrorist" after watching your childhood friend be killed isn't thaaaat terrible. It's weird though because they really played it like he was turning evil when he was yelling at the committee and lying to lamarr's parents about who killed their son. There was something ominous about that post-credits scene of him hammering his knock off shield. 

And then he shows up in the finale and is good! weird. 

He's never been likeable in any of the source material...pitiable, yes. Dickish, yes. But likeable? Nope.

But for the Director to say that they wanted to make him likeable by the end?  Needed two or three more episodes for that...plus there's the whole misreading the character in general...

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I definitely don't think that everyone likes John. But I'm willing to go into bat for the character and the writers here.

Show-John is a pretty good adaptation of comics-John, and is even arguably more sympathetic. Comics-John starts off as more of an asshole. But they both have the same arc: they initially think they are up to replacing Steve, the government gives them the job, and the story is their struggle to accept that the thing that made Steve special wasn't the super-serum alone. The thing that made Captain America an icon wasn't his powers or his shield or even the flag. It was Steve: his ability to inspire, his belief in people, his dedication and selflessness. And as hard as John tries, he doesn't have that. He just doesn't. He's a deeply flawed person and it isn't his fault, necessarily: he has the capacity to do many great things, but not to be Captain America.

We see John's background in the show. He's the high school quarterback, the decorated soldier, a hero. He's never failed at anything before. But he fails at being Captain America. 'They weren't even super soldiers!' That's a hilarious line but also a key moment for him. He and Lemar are outclassed in this game. And John (mistakenly) thinks that the serum will put him in that league, but it doesn't. It makes him more powerful, but then he messes up on the one thing Lemar praises him for - making the right decisions in the heat of the moment. And Lemar gets killed and John gets stripped of the shield.

Which brings us to the other key moment - his anger at the hearing, his insistence that he's only ever done what was asked of him and that he is who the government made him. Which is all true. The contrast between Isaiah and John couldn't be more stark in terms of their background and personalities, but they're both testament to how the military side of the government eats people up and spits them out. I mean, John did special ops. He was a government-trained killer! And he was woefully under-prepared for the switch to being Cap. The government basically handed him the shield and a big parade and said 'get on with it', as far as we're shown. What did they expect? And then because he embarrassed them with a show of anger and brutality, at least partly down to his being thrown in at the deep end, he gets ditched in about the worst way possible. Stripped of his rank and benefits.

(We can assume that Steve would have risen above these challenges, of course, but again, Steve is Steve.)

So yeah. John isn't Steve. But on the other hand, he didn't create Ultron. He didn't rampage through a city. He didn't hold a town prisoner and make them re-enact sitcoms for weeks. He failed at being Cap. He's a little too arrogant, but how many other MCU characters are a little too arrogant? It's commonplace. He's always trying to prove himself and messing up because of it, but folks, have you met Tony Stark? He's a little darker than most of the Avengers, but then again Hawkeye spent five years assassinating criminals as Ronin. Most of all, he's what people have been complaining the MCU needs more of - grey characters.

I thought the portrayal of John was one of the strengths of the show. Maybe 'like' was the wrong word to use there. I don't think I'd want to hang with John Walker. But I like how they wrote him.

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29 minutes ago, mormont said:

I thought the portrayal of John was one of the strengths of the show. Maybe 'like' was the wrong word to use there. I don't think I'd want to hang with John Walker. But I like how they wrote him.

Yea my thoughts exactly, I’m not sure if that’s what the director meant or not. But the episodes he didn’t feature heavily in were typically the weakest.

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Some more comments from the showrunner about the final title card: https://www.cbr.com/falcon-and-winter-soldier-finale-change/

Personally, I would prefer if Bucky kept the Winter Soldier title and just transformed it into something new (sort of like Black Widow did), but I find the discourse around the name to be indicative that they maybe didn't think it all the way through. Until I see a better argument, I'm just going to assume it's a marketing thing.

 

It's weird how a lot of the culture critics claiming that TFATWS is a critique of "US imperialism" (which if it is, it failed at miserably) are the same people who loudly proclaimed Killmonger to be the true hero of Black Panther due to his admonishment of isolationism. I realize that there's obviously a spectrum between the two, but it is striking how so few people seem to realize that these ideologies go hand-in-hand, and how quickly one leads to the other. I don't expect this to happen in the Marvel-verse, but if this was the real world, then within 5-10 years, huge swaths of people around the world would be accusing Wakanda of being a capitalist-imperialist empire, and we'd probably have a new cold war on our hands of some kind.

But really, with all the focus on military culture in the Captain America franchise, it would be very interesting, and even poignant, to see an anti-hero/sympathetic villain who is a flat-out isolationist--someone who doesn't want to conquer or control the world, but detach from it. 

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