Falcon and The Winter Soldier: These Turkish Delights Have Violent Ends (Spoilers)

[DaveSumm]

Eh, it was OK. Not as strong as episode 5 I don’t think. There was some cool ideas in the opening action sequences but the direction didn’t quite do it justice, although I think we were spoilt by the Russo’s in Civil War which is still the benchmark for action direction. 

Marvel had always had a knack for making origins feel organic, but it was a little clunky here. The US Agent reveal really doesn’t work without comic knowledge, why black? Why a uniform at all? Who’s he working for exactly? To do what? Isn’t US Agent a shit name? That was really just a scene to say “look, it’s that guy from the comics” (from this day forth I shall call myself ... RADIOACTIVE MAN).

Sharon being the power broker fell completely flat, firstly because it was obvious, and secondly because by then she’d done enough bad stuff* that it doesn’t even matter. And the phone call at the end was a bit too moustache twirly.

WandaVision: 7.75 / 10

Falcon and the Winter Soldier: 7 / 10
 

*Just remembered what I was thinking of here: stun gas? No, face melting gas for no reason!

[mormont]

5 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I was afraid Sam was going to introduce Isaiah to old man Steve.  I loved that he is being honored in the Smithsonian as well... however... isn’t it odd that they didn’t contact Isaiah about the new exhibit?

Isaiah is off the grid: the government don't know where he is or that he's alive, even. Sam promised to respect that last episode. So it looks like he kept that promise.

3 hours ago, sifth said:

Man they really gave Bucky nothing to do in this final. I get that they wanted Sam’s reveal as the new Cap to be the focus, but at the same time they reduced Bucky’s importance to struggling to get people out of a van. 

... not really? Bucky's contribution to the multiple fights was significant, he gets to fight Karli plus other supers and do so well they have to endanger the hostages to stop him (by contrast, John gets pummelled, again), he gets to resolve his subplots (not too happy about that one, actually - the old guy should have absolutely tore him a new one, not so much for the brainwashed murder but for the self-serving deception of befriending him), he even gets to be happy and accept his metal arm, so much so he's using it to show off to the kids. He doesn't get to be Cap or give the big speech but that was never his thing anyway. He got to do plenty.

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

Walker's very clearly "not a good guy," even if you don't have the out-of-show knowledge that JLD's character is traditionally a villain

[nitpick] Traditionally she's good. Her heel turn is relatively recent in the comics. [/nitpick]

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

Not much else to add other than if you can just shoot the super-soldiers why were they such a big deal? I get that it's a comic book thing but like if Walker just had a gun like a normal soldier he wouldn't even have needed the serum. It makes me wonder why is Zemo so afraid of these people. 

John did have a gun, he even used it in episode 2.

The trick with super soldiers and guns is getting the drop on them, and since this is a cinematic universe that's not straightforward unless you're a named character.

Anyways, I agree with some of the criticisms but I can forgive the nitpicky stuff for the good stuff the episode does. When Sam rescued the two helicopter crew, that's when I went all in on the episode. It works, even if not everything in it works. 

I said before that I don't feel entitled to judge definitively the Sam/Isaiah philosophical position on whether a black man should be Captain America, and that remains true, so I similarly don't feel entitled to judge how that pans out. I'll just observe that I think the presentation is a little more nuanced than it's being given credit for: I think the placement in the 'last episode' summary of the line where Sams says that if he was in Isaiah's place, he'd feel the same, is still the critical thing in understanding what the writers were going for. They want to acknowledge Isaiah's viewpoint as valid but argue that Sam can at least have the ambition to move beyond it. But in the end this is a complicated American racial perspective thing in which I'm an outsider, so.

I do think they do some good work positioning Sam (who was, until this series, a fairly underdeveloped character in the MCU) as the new Cap. He needed that. So in that, I think the series is a success.

[polishgenius]

1 hour ago, Poobah said:

so if the plot was gonna work they'd have to have them do a bit of moustache twirling so we'd understand that it was ok for them to all get killed in the finale.

 

I do think they made Karli way too evil, but I'd disagree that the plot framed it as okay they all died. Hell, Captain America stood in front of the world and made a passionate defense of her cause after she tried to murder loads of people including him (that was the one part of his speech I didn't like - his defense of her cause is fine, but insisting they don't call her a terrorist was silly. She's clearly a terrorist). And Zemo murdering the others is not presented as in any way okay.



Anyway yeah I agree with the general sentiment that it was a good ep with a couple clumsy moments but overall worth the journey for the series to get to where it did.

[sifth]

49 minutes ago, mormont said:

Isaiah is off the grid: the government don't know where he is or that he's alive, even. Sam promised to respect that last episode. So it looks like he kept that promise.

... not really? Bucky's contribution to the multiple fights was significant, he gets to fight Karli plus other supers and do so well they have to endanger the hostages to stop him (by contrast, John gets pummelled, again), he gets to resolve his subplots (not too happy about that one, actually - the old guy should have absolutely tore him a new one, not so much for the brainwashed murder but for the self-serving deception of befriending him), he even gets to be happy and accept his metal arm, so much so he's using it to show off to the kids. He doesn't get to be Cap or give the big speech but that was never his thing anyway. He got to do plenty.

 

Yea, Bucky getting to punch a few people is not what I consider playing an important role in the story. The thing with his arm was handled in a montage of all things, which is the laziest way a plot should be resolved. Honestly the only thing montages are good for, is when they're used to show a character training, IMO.

And yea, his plot from episode one with the guy who's son he killed, was handled extremely lazily. They basically just went back to that plot, for the sake of tying up loose ends, with no idea how to do it.

[polishgenius]

Also on Walker being given too much of a redemption arc to be US Agent- isn't that kind of how the character is anyway? Like I'm not super familiar but from the descriptions I see isn't he more of, well, exactly what the show made him, genuinely trying to live up to Steve and generally wanting to be a good guy but also struggling with ambition, resentment and anger? He's  not the same Super-Patriot that is a villain, or like that Nuke fella they used in Jessica Jones. 

[Werthead]

Falcon and the Winter Soldier - sorry Captain America and the Winter Soldier Even Though That Was His Evil Name So Shouldn't It Be Captain America and the White Wolf Sorry I Digress - is getting a sequel on the big screen.

Captain America 4 is in development and will certainly follow up on Sam becoming the new Captain America.

[Kalbear]

3 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Also on Walker being given too much of a redemption arc to be US Agent- isn't that kind of how the character is anyway? Like I'm not super familiar but from the descriptions I see isn't he more of, well, exactly what the show made him, genuinely trying to live up to Steve and generally wanting to be a good guy but also struggling with ambition, resentment and anger? He's  not the same Super-Patriot that is a villain, or like that Nuke fella they used in Jessica Jones. 

He's much less nuanced in the comic, and he's a lot closer to Super-Patriot (in fact, he actually was Super-Patriot) He wasn't a war hero in the comic either - he was someone who wanted to be amazing but did nothing in combat, then got out and got superpowered. And then...did wrestling. 

He kind of wants to be a good guy, but he's not nearly as idealistic, and his goal is to fight for his country and punish the enemies of the country no matter what.

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

Isaiah is off the grid: the government don't know where he is or that he's alive, even. Sam promised to respect that last episode. So it looks like he kept that promise.

It's odd that Isaiah didn't hear about it though. Apparently the revelation of a whole cadre of supersoldiers that worked for the US government for 30 years and were experimented on and imprisoned wasn't all that newsworthy. 

[polishgenius]

4 minutes ago, Karlbear said:

He's much less nuanced in the comic, and he's a lot closer to Super-Patriot (in fact, he actually was Super-Patriot) 

He was a super-patriot. He wasn't the supervillain super-patriot who was a different character.

 

4 minutes ago, Karlbear said:

He wasn't a war hero in the comic either - he was someone who wanted to be amazing but did nothing in combat, then got out and got superpowered.

 

Fair enough.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, polishgenius said:

He was a super-patriot. He wasn't the supervillain super-patriot who was a different character.

Well, there were several characters who called themselves Super-Patriot. John Walker was the second, and that was his wrestling name and stage name:
 

Quote

 

When propositioned by corrupt entrepreneur Curtiss Jackson, AKA Power Broker, the four friends received his exotic radiation treatments, which gives them all superhuman strength. Needing money to pay for these services, the foursome join the Unlimited Class Wrestling Federation when talent scout Ethan Thurm convinces them to hire him as their agent. Inspired by Walker’s ambition to become a patriotic Super Hero like Steve Rogers, AKA Captain America, Thurm persuades his four clients to become costumed patriotic crusaders: Walker as the Super-Patriot and Hoskins, Lennox, and Johnson as the Bold Urban Commandos or “Buckies.” Thurm finds financial sponsors to supply their costumes and gear.

To generate buzz and make more money, Thurm books Super-Patriot as either an opening act or special guest for touring rock groups. Initially reluctant, Walker eventually warms to this task as he gets better at working the crowds with patriotic speeches, during which he criticizes Captain America as an outmoded relic.

 

 

[john]

I do agree with @Karlbear that they did Isaiah somewhat dirty in this episode. I don’t mind him accepting Sam as CA but the museum thing was a bit off. Isaiah seemed to care about justice, not recognition. They could have done that scene with a more muted response from Isaiah, if he’d just shaken Sam’s hand and said “it’s a start” or something, that would’ve seemed more consistent.

[polishgenius]

5 minutes ago, Karlbear said:

Well, there were several characters who called themselves Super-Patriot. John Walker was the second, and that was his wrestling name and stage name:

Yes I know. My point was that some people were reacting as if they were expecting him to be a supervillain both when he was revealed and now when he had his turns in this episode, and that doesn't seem to be who the character is, and it feels like at least partly because people associate Super-Patriot with supervillainy even though this one seems to be dickbaggery-but-not-outright-villainy.

[GallowKnight]

The final episode was just like the rest of the show, painfully half-assed. If this was a Marvel movie it would be a low-tier Marvel movie.

Oh, and Sam's Captain America headgear looks really fucking dumb.

[Kalbear]

Just now, polishgenius said:

Yes I know. My point was that some people were reacting as if they were expecting him to be a supervillain both when he was revealed and now when he had his turns in this episode, and that doesn't seem to be who the character is, and it feels like at least partly because people associate Super-Patriot with supervillainy even though this one seems to be dickbaggery-but-not-outright-villainy.

John Walker was pretty dickbaggery in the comics. He did things like have his buddies attack Cap and try and frame Cap for various things, or make Walker seem like a bigger hero than he was. He also killed, like, a whole lot of people he didn't need to. He was intended as a rival and villain for Cap at the time - a dark version of the patriotism that Cap could occasionally represent. 

He later gets a bit better, but he's never particularly great. 

[mormont]

35 minutes ago, sifth said:

The thing with his arm was handled in a montage of all things, which is the laziest way a plot should be resolved.

No, it wasn't. It starts last episode, when Sam comments on his t-shirt while he's fixing the boat. It continues this episode, when he goes into battle with the one-sleeved jacket showing off his arm. The montage at the end is the closing shot of something that's been built up.

[Werthead]

I think that's a criticism that was reasonable. For the protagonist's split of the story, it was basically 75% Falcon and 25% Winter Soldier, which is okay but I think people were expecting a bit more of an even split.

I still think it's weird that they put Winter Soldier in the title when Bucky hates the name and is trying to move on. Maybe they couldn't use "White Wolf" because of the roleplaying publisher or something?

[Kalbear]

12 minutes ago, john said:

I do agree with @Karlbear that they did Isaiah somewhat dirty in this episode. I don’t mind him accepting Sam as CA but the museum thing was a bit off. Isaiah seemed to care about justice, not recognition. They could have done that scene with a more muted response from Isaiah, if he’d just shaken Sam’s hand and said “it’s a start” or something, that would’ve seemed more consistent.

Exactly. I don't even mind Isaiah changing his mind, and I don't mind the praise he gives Sam - but him being happy about a fucking statue? After his talk about never getting to talk to his wife for 30 years and  the life they robbed him of and the experiments they did on him, a statue is what he gets and is actually cool with? 

What would have shown Isaiah might have been wrong is actual justice of some level. Some acknowledgement of what they did was so wrong. And Sam going along with it and not pursuing that made it even worse. 

It's akin to saying that George Floyd's family should be fine with things because there's a plaza named after Floyd. Fuck That. 

[sifth]

8 minutes ago, mormont said:

8 minutes ago, mormont said:

No, it wasn't. It starts last episode, when Sam comments on his t-shirt while he's fixing the boat. It continues this episode, when he goes into battle with the one-sleeved jacket showing off his arm. The montage at the end is the closing shot of something that's been built up.

You’re reaching here man and you’ll never convince me that montages aren’t lazy, so let’s leave it at that. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

What was the song at the end of the episode?

[briantw]

I thought Walker's face turn was a little underdone, but it's not exactly out of character.  It's not like he's some huge piece of shit.  He's just not perfect and is a little hot-headed.  He snapped when his best friend and partner was killed, somewhat understandably.  That doesn't mean he's pure evil.  He's just not the right guy to uphold the virtues of Captain America.  At the end of the day, this guy is an American hero who proved himself in combat many times over, and when push came to shove, he opted to abandon revenge and try to save civilians, which is consistent with his military training.  It just felt super rushed because he literally just tried to murder Sam in the previous episode in a fit of rage. 

I feel like they needed a scene where he expressed remorse (perhaps to his underutilized wife) over the way he fought Sam and Bucky in episode five, perhaps saying he let his emotions get the best of him and wasn't himself in the aftermath of Lemar's death.  If they add in that scene, it makes his character arc much more consistent with where he ended up.

My main complaint with this series is how heavy-handed and clumsy the racial stuff was.  They really hammer you over the head with it, and there's zero subtlety or nuance.  It feels like it's trying too hard to make a point rather than telling a compelling story that naturally leads you to the point the show is trying to make.  So much of it feels forced rather than natural.  Take a film like Jojo Rabbit in contrast, which I think much more naturally tells a story with similar ideas.  Nothing in that movie feels forced.  The main character naturally goes on a journey where he realizes that all the hatred and resentment he's been taught to feel is bullshit, and I don't think there's really ever a moment where it feels heavy-handed like it does in this show.  It never feels like Jojo Rabbit is trying to hit you over the head with its message, which makes it far more effective.  

That said, I enjoyed the show overall.  I just wish the whole show was as good as the fifth episode.  And I wish they had done more with Bucky in the final episode.  His scene with the old Asian guy was laughably short and underwhelming.  They built up to that moment for six episodes and it was a thirty second conversation where they cut away before we got anything good.  I really wanted to see him make amends with that guy, as it was one of the most compelling subplots in the show.