Football: (Sky-)blue raindrops over a Red parade?

[Wilbur]

Let's note that this all came to a head after Football Leaks provided leaked copies of the plan to Der Spiegel.

Without Football Leaks, we might still be unaware of this mess, and headed toward the cliff.

[baxus]

3 hours ago, Soylent Brown said:

I expect they knew exactly what stage the plans were at, they'd have to be grossly incompetent otherwise, but they're trying to weasel out of as much criticism as they can.

This. So much this. It made me sick hearing Sky Sports saying that Chelsea and Man City were oh, so reluctant to join this league and basically did it only out of fear of missing out and being left behind. As if there is even a slightest possibility they didn't have their legal teams go through these contracts with fine-tooth comb and note every single thing, no matter how small it may appear.

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

I guess I just disagree. To your first point, having more talented clubs obviously improves the match. Watching two bad soccer teams play one another is dreadful, much like watching the Jaguars play the Browns. That's why ship those games out to London. No one here wants to see that. To your second point, that's what playoffs are for. The stakes are different, but it's wrong to suggest they'd be eliminated simply by having a closed system. And to your third point, wasn't the idea to have a similar kind of schedule to the current PL, but instead of getting a slate of meh matches everyone is fire?

That just goes to show how much you know about European football. This season's matches between "the big 6" in the Premiership have mostly been stalemates that were very difficult to watch, as is too often the case in important games. On the other hand, two teams of lower quality but better-matched often make a very entertaining match.

Jaguars playing the Browns is a match that has absolutely no stakes and as such it is irrelevant and that's why no one wants to watch it. If the loser was at risk of not playing in the NFL next year, you better believe teams would give a better performance. Or they'd at least try to. As it is, the team that wins gets a win and an increased, though still not too good, chances of making it to the play-offs and the loser gets a better shot at getting the next big star in the upcoming draft. Not only there are no consequences for sucking, you even get rewarded.

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Not really if so much has changed. It would be like saying outdated coding is still applicable, and the mere fact that a rich buyer could instantly change a team says as much. And traditions die when outside money controls everything. I believe 14 of the 20 PL teams are owned by outside investors. Don't be shocked that they don't care about the past, especially if they view ownership as a pure financial investment.

There is nothing outdated about European sports, so your analogy doesn't really hold up.

As far as 14 clubs being owned by foreigners, you just had the best display of how much those clubs would be worth without their supporters and traditions.

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

This isn't me not understanding European traditions. The world is changing and European sports will have to adapt. 

(Also, don't pretend like we don't have sports traditions here too that are over 100 years old. European football is not special in that regards)

This is very much you not understanding European traditions. European sport has adapted and will continue to adapt but it will not adapt in a manner determined by a bunch of billionaire assholes from half the world away who lack basic understanding of the sport and basic human decency to respect supporters that are the reason why their clubs are in a position they're in.

And, no. You don't have 100+ years old traditions at the level sport fans in Europe do. You want to know why? Because every single country in Europe has some sports clubs that are 100 years old, or close to it. No matter how big or small the country, no matter how big or small the clubs are, there is a story there that's worth telling and hearing. And those clubs aren't whipped up out of the thin air like Toronto Raptors, Vancouver Grizzlies or Las Vegas Golden Knights. No. They have been created by a group of students who wanted to play the sport, or miners, or some sailors brought the game and local lads at the time loved it or whatever, or a group of people in one club had a falling out and decided to part ways. And that is exactly the reason why these clubs can't just be moved to another town like Seattle Supersonics were. Or Minnesota Lakers, while we're at it.

[Heartofice]

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'm glad you mentioned those two clubs. I believe United claims to have close to half a billion fans worldwide and that Madrid isn't far behind. So why is it that both clubs are worth less than the New York Knicks, which has no international following, no national follow, no follow outside of its geographical territory and on top of that, it's fans largely hate the team. But it's still worth more than any football club in the world. Owners of the top clubs are well aware of this and that's the main motivation for their attempted break away. You get $90m if you win the CL which is hard verse a $400m windfall if you joined the ESL. Not a hard business decision there, plus you'd get fixed annual revenues which would quickly make each club more valuable than any American sports team. That's why they tried to do this. And it's kind of amazing that a handful of billionaires told a continent of sports fans to go fuck themselves and within 48 hours the fans completely bent the owners over their knees and killed the ESL in its crib. 

This is true and no doubt the American owners are looking at that and wondering why they can’t have the same thing. But that isn’t really the question. We all know that they could probably find a way to suck all the money from the game and keep most of it for themselves.. the question is why should anyone let them do that?

The European game is built on creating a dream of future success, and of the jeopardy of losing that success. The clubs at the top have been working to prevent that system for a long time and this is the pinnacle of that effort. They want to close up the drawbridge and stop anyone else having a piece of the pie. 
 

But the European game isn’t about that, and maybe it’s hard for outsiders to understand. That’s why there was such a visceral reaction to this move

[Spockydog]

4 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

This is true and no doubt the American owners are looking at that and wondering why they can’t have the same thing.

Didn't the wanker is charge of Liverpool try to impose £80 minimum ticket price at Anfield? 

[polishgenius]

18 hours ago, Consigliere said:

Mourinho's 2011/2012 Real Madrid side remains hands down the best counter-attacking side I have ever seen.

The Invincibles >>> 

 

 

anyway way without internet this week and I miss all the drama grr

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Well, Schalke fans have taken to the sealed relegation as well as could be expected.

5-600 fans waited at the stadium for their team to return from their away game at Bielefeld. The players were greeted with a few not so kinda words and eggs. Yes, fans pelted the players with eggs. Police dispersed the crowd.

 

[frenin]

7 hours ago, Spockydog said:

I've heard talk of 'golden shares', or somehow transitioning football in this country to the 50+1 model, which is probably why there were no German clubs involved. I'm not sure how the mechanics of such a transition would look, but it would be great if we could somehow do that.

 

And who's going to pay for those shares?

[Consigliere]

2 hours ago, polishgenius said:

The Invincibles >>> 

No chance. 

[Spockydog]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

And who's going to pay for those shares?

No idea. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

4 hours ago, baxus said:

That just goes to show how much you know about European football. This season's matches between "the big 6" in the Premiership have mostly been stalemates that were very difficult to watch, as is too often the case in important games. On the other hand, two teams of lower quality but better-matched often make a very entertaining match.

The matches I have seen did not come across that way for the most part, but you have to keep in mind it's hard to watch most of the matches here unless you're willing to subscribe to several streaming services. That said, it does not change the fact that there's more anticipation for matches between the big clubs even if watching two lower teams with terrible defenses may be more fun.

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Jaguars playing the Browns is a match that has absolutely no stakes and as such it is irrelevant and that's why no one wants to watch it. If the loser was at risk of not playing in the NFL next year, you better believe teams would give a better performance. Or they'd at least try to. As it is, the team that wins gets a win and an increased, though still not too good, chances of making it to the play-offs and the loser gets a better shot at getting the next big star in the upcoming draft. Not only there are no consequences for sucking, you even get rewarded.

Tell that specifically to those two teams who've been "rewarded" with two decades of continued sucking for the mere fact of sucking. 

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There is nothing outdated about European sports, so your analogy doesn't really hold up.

The revenue models are from the reports I've read. They're running out of new revenue sources hence in part why the big clubs tried to make this power move. 

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As far as 14 clubs being owned by foreigners, you just had the best display of how much those clubs would be worth without their supporters and traditions.

Some what. They probably could have pulled it off if they instead asked for a three to five year moratorium on relegation for the founding clubs and hadn't acted like cartoonish Bond villains. 

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This is very much you not understanding European traditions. European sport has adapted and will continue to adapt but it will not adapt in a manner determined by a bunch of billionaire assholes from half the world away who lack basic understanding of the sport and basic human decency to respect supporters that are the reason why their clubs are in a position they're in.

We'll see. I wouldn't be so bullish on that if and when smarter people try to make the same play. They just did it with maximum ham-fistedness while not having strong enough internal willingness to weather the initial PR hit.

And regarding tradition, while I would say the majority of commentators I've heard do agree with you, a lot of them also call BS on tradition and say it's something European football fans romanticize about more than actually practice.

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And, no. You don't have 100+ years old traditions at the level sport fans in Europe do. You want to know why? Because every single country in Europe has some sports clubs that are 100 years old, or close to it. No matter how big or small the country, no matter how big or small the clubs are, there is a story there that's worth telling and hearing. And those clubs aren't whipped up out of the thin air like Toronto Raptors, Vancouver Grizzlies or Las Vegas Golden Knights. No. They have been created by a group of students who wanted to play the sport, or miners, or some sailors brought the game and local lads at the time loved it or whatever, or a group of people in one club had a falling out and decided to part ways. And that is exactly the reason why these clubs can't just be moved to another town like Seattle Supersonics were. Or Minnesota Lakers, while we're at it.

Lol, now you're the one who doesn't know what they're talking about. Up until recently the most beloved American athlete was a dude who played baseball 100 years ago, over 50 years after the sport became a thing, and Universities across the country have sporting traditions that pre-date all modern American sports, and frankly collegiate sports is actually probably our best comparison point to fandom for football in Europe given the similar origins. It's really unfair to pick the youngest of the major American sports and cite their expansion teams as examples of lacking tradition.

Also, my understanding was for legal reasons it's damn near impossible to move teams these days. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Iskaral Pust]

So the new CL format announcement by UEFA sounds just as bloated, broken and self-interested as the ESL.  The only difference is who it’s designed to benefit.  (Not the fans, once again)

[Consigliere]

The shitshow of the ESL has taken the spotlight off of the announcement of the new CL format which is terrible. The group stage is the most boring part of the competition so UEFA's grand idea was to increase the group stage matches from 96 to 180. The total number of games for the competition increases from 125 to 225. 17 matches (19 if a finalist finished outside the top 8 in the group stage) instead of the current 13. Will also require an addition 4-6 midweeks which seriously congests the season. The Europa League and Europa Conference League will also be using the Swiss model format from 2024. Several hundred more matches are about to be added to European club competition in an already over-saturated market.

 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

1 hour ago, Iskaral Pust said:

So the new CL format announcement by UEFA sounds just as bloated, broken and self-interested as the ESL.  The only difference is who it’s designed to benefit.  (Not the fans, once again)

It is. Nope, it benefits the big clubs.

Especially the two places for the teams with highest UEFA coefficients, who didn't qualify for the CL but for either Euroleague or the new UEFA conference league. Basically if Juve and Liverpool fail to qualify they can get there thanks to this new pedigree spots. If the new system were in place next season already. It's the minimation of risk big clubs wanted, just not as blatant as with Sham League.

Fans. pfft. That's so 1990s. It's all about the best product on the pitch. 90 minute games, and no cheerleaders, and no pewdiepie for the kids.

[Iskaral Pust]

2 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

It is. Nope, it benefits the big clubs.

Especially the two places for the teams with highest UEFA coefficients, who didn't qualify for the CL but for either Euroleague or the new UEFA conference league. Basically if Juve and Liverpool fail to qualify they can get there thanks to this new pedigree spots. If the new system were in place next season already. It's the minimation of risk big clubs wanted, just not as blatant as with Sham League.

Fans. pfft. That's so 1990s. It's all about the best product on the pitch. 90 minute games, and no cheerleaders, and no pewdiepie for the kids.

Yes, it benefits the big clubs but this version benefits UEFA a lot more than ESL would.  This way they can still give lots of CL places to clubs from minor football associations, and add even more games that fans don’t care about.  The make sure not to exclude the big clubs because they don’t want to miss out on their fans in the viewership. The big clubs don’t want four extra matches against small clubs, but that helps UEFA with their power base.  It’s not that different from the ESL in how it makes sure the big teams don’t get excluded, but it makes sure to keep lots of small teams involved because every national association has a vote in UEFA.  The ESL was going to represent only 4-5 leagues (and possibly as few as 3).

[baxus]

12 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

The matches I have seen did not come across that way for the most part, but you have to keep in mind it's hard to watch most of the matches here unless you're willing to subscribe to several streaming services. That said, it does not change the fact that there's more anticipation for matches between the big clubs even if watching two lower teams with terrible defenses may be more fun.

Because stakes are higher in matches between the big clubs. I don't know how many times I have to point out that stakes make things fun. That's why American teams raise their level during play-offs (and right before) and games are more entertaining. That's why knockout stages in CL are more fun.

12 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Tell that specifically to those two teams who've been "rewarded" with two decades of continued sucking for the mere fact of sucking. 

No one said that team who get rewarded have to get the best of that reward. Stories of draft busts are very common.

12 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

The revenue models are from the reports I've read. They're running out of new revenue sources hence in part why the big clubs tried to make this power move.

Revenue models are so "bad" that a club like Stoke was able to buy players from Bayern Munich and AC Milan. Revenue models are just fine, it's just that there is no GUARANTEED revenue, and there shouldn't be. There's no revenue sharing like in, for example, NHL and there shouldn't be. You get better, you get paid more. It's a simple equation.

12 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Some what. They probably could have pulled it off if they instead asked for a three to five year moratorium on relegation for the founding clubs and hadn't acted like cartoonish Bond villains.

They could've pulled it off if they made this league quite different and used it as a replacement for CL, with clubs from top leagues qualifying through their domestic competitions. There's no doubt about that. And no one (or next to no one) would have a problem with that.

12 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

And regarding tradition, while I would say the majority of commentators I've heard do agree with you, a lot of them also call BS on tradition and say it's something European football fans romanticize about more than actually practice.

A quick question - those who call BS on tradition, are they by any chance American?

12 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Lol, now you're the one who doesn't know what they're talking about. Up until recently the most beloved American athlete was a dude who played baseball 100 years ago, over 50 years after the sport became a thing, and Universities across the country have sporting traditions that pre-date all modern American sports, and frankly collegiate sports is actually probably our best comparison point to fandom for football in Europe given the similar origins. It's really unfair to pick the youngest of the major American sports and cite their expansion teams as examples of lacking tradition.

Also, my understanding was for legal reasons it's damn near impossible to move teams these days. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are aware that there is a nationwide football competition called FA Cup that's 150 year old? That there is such a thing called The Boat Race, rowing race between Oxford and Cambridge that's coming close to 200 years since the first race? Where do you think that rowing in US  came from? Continent-wide competition between best teams in Europe have been going on for 65 years now.

It's unfair to call pick the youngest of the major American sports? Ok, shall we go with another? Let's take NHL. In 1942 there were 6 teams, and now there are 31. 25 teams popped out of thin air, many of whom were moved from traditional hockey environments like Canada to places like Florida where arenas were usually half-full at best (I don't know if things changed with Tampa's success in recent years, but that was the case while I was following NHL a bit). Baseball? All I can say is - fuck any sport in which you can play two full matches in a single day without a drop in quality. NFL I really don't know much about, so I would not get into that.

I don't know how impossible it is to move teams in the US these days, but weren't Rams moved to LA recently? And there is always talk about moving Raiders from Oakland, I don't know what happened there. Moving teams in Europe is blasphemous.

Don't get me wrong, I love the NBA and NHL system. Their play-offs are probably the best way of ensuring that the best team goes through. I love the system where you help weaker teams improve so that there is more competition next seasons, I love the salary cap and the fact it's difficult to have dynasties anymore. There's a lot of good parts in that system. It works great! For North America, where sports culture has been formed in a different way than in Europe.

[mormont]

https://www.football365.com/news/mourinho-tore-into-spurs-players-four-hours-after-sack

This is extraordinary, if true. Exit interviews are one thing, but in what other job do you get sacked and then are allowed to tell your coworkers/subordinates at length how they're the ones who fucked up?

ETA - all I'm saying is, if I was one of those players, Jose would get about two minutes into his spiel before I asked the pertinent question, 'why are you still here?'

[baxus]

Based on this article, I think this happened after Mourinho was informed he's getting sacked and before the club made it official. It's pretty likely that players knew what's about to happen but it would still be unwise to ask your manager "why are you still here?" before having official confirmation that he shouldn't be there.

It is insane how completely unsurprised I am by this, though.

[Spockydog]

On 4/21/2021 at 8:18 AM, mormont said:

An unsuual show of faith in Boris Johnson's government there.

According to Aleksander Čeferin, Johnson's intervention was a major factor in the climbdown.

On a call, he apparently warned the English breakaway clubs that he could make life very difficult for them. Firstly, by imposing a 'really high luxury tax' on them, and more importantly, he told them that due to Brexit he could "greatly complicate the procedures for issuing temporary residence permits to foreign footballers in England”.

 

[baxus]

Do we generally see that as a good thing?

Sure it worked in our favour this time but what happens if politicians at some point down the line start dictating how sports work by special case legislation such as this? I mean, if they can do that for sports, what's to stop them from imposing some type of special tax, luxury or not, on other type of organisations?

[Spockydog]

24 minutes ago, baxus said:

Do we generally see that as a good thing?

Unequivocally, yes. These people had to be stopped. And he used means available to him to do so. Let's be clear. The Americans knew the fans were not going to like it, but they went ahead anyway. Because the past year has shown them that they do not need to consider the feelings of 'legacy fans'. The only thing they care about is money, and Johnson made it clear to them he was going to fuck their shit up.

I fucking hate Johnson, but I would shake him by the hand and thank him for his support in this matter.

And taxes are good. They pay for stuff that society needs.