Raja Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 Wabsolute Scenes at the arsenal forum today ( attended by josh kronke and vinai ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 45 minutes ago, Raja said: Wabsolute Scenes at the arsenal forum today ( attended by josh kronke and vinai ) That is quite an astonishing admission. #KroenkesOut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 1 minute ago, Spockydog said: That is quite an astonishing admission. #KroenkesOut Full write up is over here Interesting read, to say the least. We will see what happens in the next year, but I think I side with them on this below, which is towards the end of the piece; following quote is by Vinai Venkatesham Quote Just to build on that point, my personal view is that if the football model based on trying to find as many people as we can out there who are going to pump money into football clubs and they're not going to be able to stand on their feet, I think the industry is in real trouble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slurktan Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 Being mildly amused with all of this, as not too much of a football fan I did read all that and quite frankly it's astonishing. Maybe that kind of thing happens more often over there but I can't think of any owner/son of owner being that candid with fans like ever. Is there bullshit corporation answers that chase their own tail? Yeah but there seems to more that isn't. That's fascinating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 6 minutes ago, Slurktan said: Being mildly amused with all of this, as not too much of a football fan I did read all that and quite frankly it's astonishing. Yeah, at least he and vinai fronted up, can't fault them for that. To be fair, a lot of these issues go back years so there is a lot of frustration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeor Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 57 minutes ago, Raja said: Yeah, at least he and vinai fronted up, can't fault them for that. To be fair, a lot of these issues go back years so there is a lot of frustration. As an Arsenal fan I'm not particularly fussed about what happened with the ESL. There was obviously a desire not to be left behind - "the train was leaving the station" - and when you look at Arsenal's recent record of no CL qualification for four consecutive years, the ESL must have been an enticing proposition. So I can see why they would have initially wanted to be in it from that point of view, contrasted to their current position Arsenal would probably have stood to gain the most. When it all blew apart, their withdrawal statement seemed genuinely contrite and as @Raja notes, Kroenke and Venkatesham both fronted up to the fan forum and didn't hide. And from what I've seen of the reporting, Kroenke didn't bite back and ate humble pie during the forum. For an American billionaire owner, that's something notable (John Henry did the same for Liverpool, accepting full singular responsibility and absolving others, but he didn't face the fans live). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted April 23, 2021 Share Posted April 23, 2021 I do have some sympathy for clubs not wanting get left behind, it kind of explains why smaller clubs like Arsenal and Spurs are even in the mix in these conversations. Having said that, I’m getting quite angry at a lot of these ‘apologies’ , I don’t believe a single word of them. At least Perez is sticking to his incredibly wrong guns. Interesting how they batted back the idea of fan representation on the board. That should be a requirement from now on, but they seemed to baulk at the idea. Why is nobody asking why the big clubs feel the need to spend 100s of millions on players and wages and then look around for sympathy when they realise the model is unsustainable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baxus Posted April 23, 2021 Share Posted April 23, 2021 12 hours ago, Tywin et al. said: It seems like their big mistake was not trying to work with FIFA and UEFA. That could have smooth over a lot. But they didn't and they demanded too much too soon and it blew up in their faces. I'm just of the opinion these things don't have to stuck in one place. Leagues of all kinds of different sports from across the world should look to copy other aspects of leagues they think could improve their overall product, and I don't think that should be rejected simply because of tradition. Weren't people making a similar fuss thirty years ago when the PL came along? Look where it is now. Change isn't a bad thing. They were trying to remove FIFA and UEFA out of the equation, why would they work with them? Sure, leagues should pick stuff that other leagues are doing better and copy them, but there are things that just can't work. Closed-shop league couldn't work in European football any more than a draft would, or youth academy system could in American pro leagues. 38 minutes ago, Heartofice said: I do have some sympathy for clubs not wanting get left behind, it kind of explains why smaller clubs like Arsenal and Spurs are even in the mix in these conversations. Having said that, I’m getting quite angry at a lot of these ‘apologies’ , I don’t believe a single word of them. At least Perez is sticking to his incredibly wrong guns. The funny thing is, "not wanting to be left behind" is an excuse I've seen thrown around in the media to explain actions of Manchester City and Chelsea, of all clubs. As for apologies, I'd give extra punishment to clubs who try to find excuses. We all know what happened, you got greedy, tried to pull a stunt like this, got smacked down, say you're sorry, take the punishment (if any) and move on. No need for this "dog ate my homework" bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted April 23, 2021 Share Posted April 23, 2021 Yeah, the problem with the 'we were worried about being left behind' apology is that it is less effective if everyone's using it. You can't all just have been tagging along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted April 23, 2021 Share Posted April 23, 2021 Exactly, so who is going to own up to being the instigator of this plan then? It is probably Real and Barca I would have thought, both of whom appear to be in absolute desperate straits and so would be willing to risk everything to save themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse Named Stranger Posted April 23, 2021 Author Share Posted April 23, 2021 The left behind excuse is galling when used by the (big) English clubs. This goes towards CL money distorting domestic leagues. The big boy clubs in Europe are having their sights set on the CL title. Usually the argument, when asked to distribute more of the money to make the domestic competition, well, more competitive, it goes like this: Sorry, we can't do this, If you do this, we lose competitiveness with the EPL clubs and the money they have from the EPL tv deal. If you did this, our domestic league would fall behind and we all would less money, because the TV money would drop (due to losing competitiveness/attractiveness). This is pretty much the Bayern standard phrase, I am pretty sure you can translate it into Spanish and copy and paste it into Real Madrid statement. So basically every league needs a show horse to show up in the UEFA competitions. There's some truth to that. However, the CL money has become such a factor, that clubs enter those rat races for the title. However only one rat can ever win it. At the very base of those extended rat races for the qualicaition, there are only four spots at most. And the question is, what happens to the losing rats? The clubs are basically taking bets on future successes. If that gamble pays out, they can more or less afford their transfer fees and wage costs. If not, they have a problem and their house of cards comes crashing down on them. So they can either take another gamble (accumulate more debt), or sell off the players that have proven to be not up to the task, which can prove diffiult. If you sell them off, you are risking of falling behind. Check Arsenal now. If you look at Bundesliga clubs, and what happens when those gambles didn't come off. Take a look at Schalke who are dropping out of top flight and have build up debts in the range of 220-240m €. And they aren't a small tin pot club with a small following, we are talking about the second biggest football club in Germany (after Bayern obviously). Given that the EPL has the biggest TV deal (by far), they really should be the last clubs complaining about risking being left behind. As for the two Spanish clubs. They also generate sufficient money to put together teams that can compete with the EPL teams. Ofc, if you spend 100m in wages on Messi alone, then your business model simply sucks and you can never ever be working sustainable. So Barca and Madrid should rather be taking a look at their spending, instead of trying to generate another 100 mil of income, which they'd drop into their bottomless pit. Real already got a goverment bail out in the late 90s or 2000s. The Spanish goverment quickly turned Madrid's old training grounds (prime location) into an area suitable for real estate development. Real sold it off and got a shot of some 100m in the arm, which saved them from going bust back then. Now they need another shot, because their spending went ouf of control again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted April 23, 2021 Share Posted April 23, 2021 Yeah what is really galling is someone like Real Madrid complaining that their domestic league is uncompetitive. Well why is it that the same teams win over and over in Spain ( though there was a cool period where that wasn’t happening), is it because the top teams have too much money and don’t share it out maybe??? Same with all the other leagues. The CL has completely distorted the landscape of many leagues , it gives this compound benefit that can only be counteracted by having some rich sugar daddy come in and throw endless cash at a club. In reality there needs to be a great levelling of the playing field. The SL clubs say that fans just want to see the biggest and best teams, and maybe there is truth in that. Where they are wrong is having the illusion that the best sites are set in stone for eternity. The whole point is that the best sides change and evolve over time. Aston Villa have won a European Cup for fucks sake, but for some reason it’s Spurs who would be in the SL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soylent Brown Posted April 23, 2021 Share Posted April 23, 2021 Really if the big clubs want to band together to do anything, it should be to come to an agreement on an upper limit for wages. A big part of the problem Real and Barcelona have financially is down to the Keeping Ronaldo And Messi Happy arms race over the past decade. One-upmanship and then the need for parity on the other side, and the following effect on other squad salaries is what's fucked them. Rather than just endlessly looking to bring more and more money in, why not stop offering players insane contracts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted April 23, 2021 Share Posted April 23, 2021 16 minutes ago, Soylent Brown said: Really if the big clubs want to band together to do anything, it should be to come to an agreement on an upper limit for wages. A big part of the problem Real and Barcelona have financially is down to the Keeping Ronaldo And Messi Happy arms race over the past decade. One-upmanship and then the need for parity on the other side, and the following effect on other squad salaries is what's fucked them. Rather than just endlessly looking to bring more and more money in, why not stop offering players insane contracts? Exactly. They are all saying they joined the ESL because of the unrelenting pressure of their ever-increasing operating budgets. WELL STOP PAYING PLAYERS HALF A MILLION QUID A WEEK JUST FOR KICKING A FOOTBALL AROUND. There has to be a reset and a salary cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted April 23, 2021 Share Posted April 23, 2021 12 hours ago, Raja said: Yeah, at least he and vinai fronted up, can't fault them for that. To be fair, a lot of these issues go back years so there is a lot of frustration. I read the transcript, and this was nothing but the usual Kroenke lip service. Two years ago, Josh told Arsenal fans to get excited. For what? Mid-table mediocrity? Spunking huge amounts of money on terrible transfer deals? They are terrible, terrible owners, and Josh can go fuck himself with all the 'oh we only joined so we didn't get left behind'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted April 23, 2021 Share Posted April 23, 2021 I absolutely do not buy the excuse from the likes of Bayern, Real and Barca that they can't distribute the domestic broadcast money more equitably for fear of losing competitiveness with EPL clubs. That is a load of horseshit coming from three clubs who have always been in the top 4 of the money league. What they really want to avoid is a situation like the EPL where a poor season can easily see one or two of the big clubs miss out on CL football. Their real intention is to ensure that their respective domestic leagues remain uncompetitive enough so that a shit season for any of Bayern, Real or Barca means they still very very easily qualify for the CL. I agree with the above that the only reason big clubs have spiralling costs is because they are in an arms race with each other. The big clubs are not some poor unassuming victims of unknown evil market forces. The situation exists solely because of the wealthiest clubs. There's a very simple solution to that: salary and transfer caps. Leagues should also restrict how much clubs can pay to agents. With the huge sums of money saved, bigger contributions in the form of solidarity payments can be made to the rest of the football pyramid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted April 23, 2021 Share Posted April 23, 2021 Im sure salary caps is not something that can really be introduced in Europe though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted April 23, 2021 Share Posted April 23, 2021 3 minutes ago, Heartofice said: Im sure salary caps is not something that can really be introduced in Europe though. The ESL were going to introduce a salary cap of 55% of a club's operating budget. Pretty sure there will be broad support across the football spectrum for a salary cap. The only people against it will be players and agents. And, you know, fuck these guys. It is their greed that has brought us to where we are today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted April 23, 2021 Share Posted April 23, 2021 Not a hard cap perhaps but if Europe can have FFP and leagues have their own financial restrictions then there should be no barrier to saying that a clubs wage bill cannot exceed X% of revenue. I think this will need some thinking through though. At least in England, the clubs outside the big six are the ones with extremely high wage/revenue ratios so such a restriction would disproportionately benefit the big six teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted April 23, 2021 Share Posted April 23, 2021 13 minutes ago, Consigliere said: Not a hard cap perhaps but if Europe can have FFP and leagues have their own financial restrictions then there should be no barrier to saying that a clubs wage bill cannot exceed X% of revenue. I think this will need some thinking through though. At least in England, the clubs outside the big six are the ones with extremely high wage/revenue ratios so such a restriction would disproportionately benefit the big six teams. FFP has been abandoned. After the Man City debacle, when they got away with massive amounts of financial doping, the idea of UEFA enforcing any kind of FFP is a joke. No, a salary cap is vital, and the only way to safeguard the future of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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