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Football: (Sky-)blue raindrops over a Red parade?

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, baxus said:

I'm not sure anyone ever predicted a situation like this so I wouldn't be surprised if players contracts say nothing about them playing for national teams or not.

I think the players' contracts almost certainly cover playing for national teams. We know that it's not uncommon for transfer fees to be partly dependent on international appearances and we know that clubs are obliged to release players for international matches. It would be odd, to say the least, if international football was not something agents and clubs ever think to discuss in a player's contract. It's clearly relevant to their club career.

But here again the ESL clubs have probably covered themselves by stating their intent to continue playing in domestic leagues. The clubs can quite honestly say they'd be perfectly willing to release the players for internationals on the same terms as before! It's just that FIFA imposed a sanction on them, something they had no say in. OK, it's because of what we did, but from the clubs' point of view, they're willing to meet the agreed contractual terms, so no breach of contract.

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The special feeling of "European nights at Anfield" comes in part from the fact that they are not weekly occurrence. Playing Real Madrid, Barcelona, Juventus and the rest of these top teams week in week out will make it less special. When Liverpool play Bayern, you know that tens of millions or hundreds of millions will be in front of the TV. If that becomes just another Wednesday, the interest will drop. Especially if there's no stake in it. If winning or losing the match makes no difference, a lot of people would just skip it.

Maybe. But if you're a TV company or a sponsor or even a club, do you want an audience of 10 million once every couple of years, or an audience of 1 million every week?

 

Edited by mormont

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3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

So obviously I get most of my sports news through U.S. media sources, and they in turn always see things through an American lens. The handful of reporting I've seen about the new SL is that this is the fault of new American owners in Europe. Is there some validity to these claims? It would be the American thing to do to come in late and say to hell with other's traditions because there's so much unrealized profits just sitting there waiting to be had. 

In a way yes. But all this criticism is just hipocrisy.

CL has ruined the competetivity between teams in their national leagues years ago.

A lot of clubs from EPL are bought and they invest amounts of money from outside sources into their football teams thus making them unfair competitors.

The SL is just aplying the same idead that these hipocrites are complaning about. The diference is that now most clubs are on the poor side and therefore lots of people are angry.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Spockydog said:

Under this proposal, we're gonna be kicked out of the PL. 

I know people say that will never happen, but what choice do the PL have? This European Super League, and the closed nature of it will be devastating for the Premier League, where every year we have a bunch of really good football teams chasing a handful of European places. You take that away and, really, what is the fucking point? 

Liverpool, Arsenal, et al might believe they are untouchble in that the PL wouldn't dare expel them, but they might be in for a rude awakening. 

And nobody is going to give two fucks when these greedy bastards are forced into playing each other week in week out 'cos they've got no one else to play. The TV figures will be embarrassing. 

Yeah if the clubs are kicked out of their domestic leagues then it will be a disaster. It will be interesting to see just how far these parasites are willing to take it this time. After the fierce outcry, I expected the clubs to back down just like they did when that project big picture crap came out. But instead they've doubled down. I think the leeches were prepared to fight tooth and nail with UEFA, FIFA and the domestic associations but I'm not so sure that they are prepared for a fight with the UK government. If legislation does end up getting passed then talk of a super league will be dead since it has no chance of being profitable without the English clubs.

There's also talk now that City, United, Arsenal, Chelsea and Real Madrid are going to get expelled from the semi finals of the EL and CL. It would be the right decision but it's unfortunate that the fans, players and coaching staff have to pay the price because of these greedy cunts running the clubs.

Edited by Consigliere

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

So obviously I get most of my sports news through U.S. media sources, and they in turn always see things through an American lens. The handful of reporting I've seen about the new SL is that this is the fault of new American owners in Europe. Is there some validity to these claims?

I think there's been a tendency to lay all of the blame on American owners (due to the super league following the American sports model of a closed shop) but I don't think that's fair. They share part of the blame of course but the driving forces behind a super league has been Fiorentino Perez (Real Madrid) and Andrea Agnelli (Juventus). Perez especially has been a big proponent of a super league going back at least 15 years.

Edited by Consigliere

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54 minutes ago, baxus said:

One of the biggest complaints was that there are too many matches in the calendar and now they want to have 18 matches in the ESL + quarterfinals (2 matches) + semifinals (2 matches) + final (1 match), in addition to domestic leagues (38 matches in PL) and cups. There is no way that even Man City (they have the biggest squad in the PL) could play so many competitive matches, without fielding youngsters and reserves. And they definitely wouldn't send the weaker team out in ESL, would they?

I'd rather watch EPL without this top 6 teams than watch them mocking it by fielding U21 teams regularly. The only time I found that acceptable was when Liverpool played youngsters in the FA Cup because of the fixture clash with Club World Cup.

I think that it will be the FA Cup and Carabao Cup that will be devalued with the ESL clubs sending out the U21s to play in those competitions. So 38 league games + 18 ESL games + a maximum additional 5 games in the ESL = 61 games (or a minimum of 56 games) which is about what top clubs end up playing per season anyway.

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7 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

I think that it will be the FA Cup and Carabao Cup that will be devalued with the ESL clubs sending out the U21s to play in those competitions. So 38 league games + 18 ESL games + a maximum additional 5 games in the ESL = 61 games (or a minimum of 56 games) which is about what top clubs end up playing per season anyway.

For ESL teams what is the diference between being 2 or 16?

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1 minute ago, divica said:

For ESL teams what is the diference between being 2 or 16?

In the proposal it says that there will be 15 founder clubs (who will be permanent members) + 5 clubs invited to the competition every year. These 20 clubs will be split into two groups of 10 with the top 4 from each group advancing to the quarterfinal stage.

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21 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

In the proposal it says that there will be 15 founder clubs (who will be permanent members) + 5 clubs invited to the competition every year. These 20 clubs will be split into two groups of 10 with the top 4 from each group advancing to the quarterfinal stage.

You didn t understand. 

If you are arsenal and are playing in ESL what is the difference between being 2 or 16 in PL? 

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Just now, divica said:

You didn t understand. 

If you are arsenal and are playing in ESL what is the difference between being 2 or 16 in PL? 

You should have been more clear with your question then. There would be no difference obviously except for pride. I think all players and managers would still like to finish in respectable league positions.

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7 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

You should have been more clear with your question then. There would be no difference obviously except for pride. I think all players and managers would still like to finish in respectable league positions.

Or they could play with their reserves and use the best players for ESL and cups. Winning a trophy is always more important. 

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, divica said:

Or they could play with their reserves and use the best players for ESL and cups. Winning a trophy is always more important. 

Sure, that could be the case too. These clubs would also not exclusively use reserves in the league either. At the end of the day the clubs would not want to get relegated as that would mean a big financial loss and there's the pride factor too - the players and managers of these clubs would not want the ignominy of relegation or a relegation battle.

Edited by Consigliere

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I’m probably a bit older than most posters here but this sounds so similar to the launch of the PL that I’m surprised it hasn’t been discussed more from that lens.  Basically the ESL will supplant the CL and allow the ESL clubs to negotiate their own TV deal without UEFA.  Just like the PL allowed those clubs to negotiate their own TV deal without the FA.  The clubs just take more direct control of the value they create, and look to squeeze out any other stakeholders.  

The closed shop aspect stinks, although the wealthiest clubs already have such a financial advantage that they hardly need it over the medium to long term.  It’s just a sweetener for them to avoid consequences from any short term blips.

I already hate the corrupt self-serving of UEFA and FIFA so I have no outrage on their behalf.  I honestly don’t know if the domestic leagues would be better off with or without the ESL clubs, who would have a huge financial advantage regardless.  My dad prefers watching the Championship to the PL because it’s more open and competitive.  I think the ESL will quickly get stale too.  Uncertainty, skill and bravery are what make sports compelling, but the ESL is enhancing skill at the expense of the others.  A closed shop doesn’t have to be a disaster, but ask fans of some NFL teams who are never competitive and just limp along forever.

I’m already jaded by over-supply of football so I’m not their target market here, but this won’t get me to pay any additional TV subscription.

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2 hours ago, Consigliere said:

There's also talk now that City, United, Arsenal, Chelsea and Real Madrid are going to get expelled from the semi finals of the EL and CL.

Do PSG win the CL by default? Dortmund and Porto could be reinstated, but RM beat Liverpool so that's a problem...

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22 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said:

I’m probably a bit older than most posters here but this sounds so similar to the launch of the PL that I’m surprised it hasn’t been discussed more from that lens.  Basically the ESL will supplant the CL and allow the ESL clubs to negotiate their own TV deal without UEFA.  Just like the PL allowed those clubs to negotiate their own TV deal without the FA.  The clubs just take more direct control of the value they create, and look to squeeze out any other stakeholders.  

The closed shop aspect stinks, although the wealthiest clubs already have such a financial advantage that they hardly need it over the medium to long term.  It’s just a sweetener for them to avoid consequences from any short term blips.

I already hate the corrupt self-serving of UEFA and FIFA so I have no outrage on their behalf.  I honestly don’t know if the domestic leagues would be better off with or without the ESL clubs, who would have a huge financial advantage regardless.  My dad prefers watching the Championship to the PL because it’s more open and competitive.  I think the ESL will quickly get stale too.  Uncertainty, skill and bravery are what make sports compelling, but the ESL is enhancing skill at the expense of the others.  A closed shop doesn’t have to be a disaster, but ask fans of some NFL teams who are never competitive and just limp along forever.

I’m already jaded by over-supply of football so I’m not their target market here, but this won’t get me to pay any additional TV subscription.

If people aren't hipocritical then then economical diferences isn t a reason to exclube clubs from domestic leagues because these diference already exist with the CL.

The problems start because of the number of teams that would participate in the competion, what teams would be there, the fact that some clubs have permanent places there and it would hurt the domestic leagues because being 2 or 16 is indiferent.

The rest is once again just hipocrisy. But with CL's new format the only reason for these clubs to do this is for greed and desperation.

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23 minutes ago, mormont said:

Do PSG win the CL by default? Dortmund and Porto could be reinstated, but RM beat Liverpool so that's a problem...

No idea what will happen in that case. I don't think broadcasters will be happy with no semifinals and final being played and will want to be reimbursed in that scenario and Uefa are too greedy to just leave money on the table like that. A solution for the Real/Liverpool conundrum could be going further back to the round of 16. Liverpool beat Leipzig and Real beat Atalanta so have Leipzig and Atalanta play each other for a place in the semifinal. 

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45 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said:

A closed shop doesn’t have to be a disaster, but ask fans of some NFL teams who are never competitive and just limp along forever.

I'm not sure if this comparison is entirely fair. The closed shop system is actually meant to help the crap organizations and I think parity in the NFL and NBA is significantly better than what I've seen in European soccer. The problem with our sports on this side of the pond is that we have so many second and third generation owners who don't know what they're doing. If you could relegate owners in the NFL, per se, I think the bad franchises would turn around over time. 

34 minutes ago, mormont said:

Do PSG win the CL by default? Dortmund and Porto could be reinstated, but RM beat Liverpool so that's a problem...

I'd think you'd just have to null the entire tournament. Otherwise wouldn't there just be a mountain of litigation? 

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Could other clubs throw a wrench in these plans by starting to not cooperate on player transfers and asking for way more money? Not wanting to sell players under contract, and refusing to loan players to the ESL clubs etc? For example, Dortmund could refuse to sell Haaland to any of the ESL clubs, unless they pay some exorbitant amount of money, or just not at all.

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Posted (edited)

The chief architect himself, Fiorentino Perez, is currently giving an interview. Here's some of what he's had to say. 

 

Quote

The major clubs of England, Spain and Italy have to give a solution to the bad situation that football is experiencing. More competitive games will make everyone earn more money. We came to the conclusion that by doing the Super League instead of the CL we could help the lost income. The Super League will save clubs financially. Here at Real Madrid we lost a lot of money and we're in a very bad situation. Top clubs in Spain and England are coming to conclusions about fixing football. Madrid alone lost €400m and nothing was being done about that.

UEFA threats? Football needs to evolve, audiences are going down. Football was losing interest from fans, we need a change. 16-24 year old fans of that age don't have interest in football. Football needs to adapt to the new generations now. All I do is for the good of football. The Super League will generate more money. It’s more attractive. Manchester-Barca will be more attractive than Manchester vs a smaller team.

Teams can come in to the Super League. We never thought of it as a closed league and we always thought about sporting merit. Sevilla can perfectly join the Super League the same way they can go to the CL in their league position. We have 15 teams + another 5 teams. Those 5 teams will earn their place every season.

If you win you receive €120-130m from UEFA but with Super League we will earn much more. The new Champions League format will not save football. I don't understand it, it won't help anything.

I came in 2000 to save Real Madrid from financial ruin and I did. I saved the club. UEFA is a monopoly, what we're trying to do is save football. They must be transparent, and UEFA never has had a good history. I don't know why UEFA has been threatening since our press release says we would work out with them and FIFA. The players can stay totally calm about their national teams. The ban can't happen.

How can La Liga lose prestige? It won't lose value with the Super League. Those two competitions can coexist. Champions League is attractive only from the quarterfinals. Nobody cares about the games before. We haven't invited PSG, and didn't talk to any German club yet. If PSG and Bayern Munich refuse, the Super League competition will not be canceled. This is an erroneous claim.

The 15 founding clubs are the ones that matter the most in terms of entertainment. Others likes of Napoli and Roma will have a chance to be in the competition one year or another, then we'll see.

Ceferin insulted Agnelli and that is totally unacceptable. We don’t want a president who insults another president. Everyone says that the Super League is the rich club's league, when that's not true, it's the league to save football.

Boris Johnson said he will do everything to cancel the Super League? Someone must have told to him that the Premier League would disappear: it's false, it's not true. Everything will go back to normal.

If we continue with the CL, interest will decrease further and even more with the new format. We don't want the rich teams to be richer and poor teams to be poorer. Football is a unity. Right now it's in a freefall. There will be VAR and financial fair-play in this league and a salary cap at 55%. We have been working on this project for a long time. All the clubs signed for the Super League on Saturday, not yesterday. The contract is binding and nobody will leave. If UEFA don’t want to come to an agreement, we won’t back down because we need the Super League.

 

Edited by Consigliere

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1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

I'm not sure if this comparison is entirely fair. The closed shop system is actually meant to help the crap organizations and I think parity in the NFL and NBA is significantly better than what I've seen in European soccer. The problem with our sports on this side of the pond is that we have so many second and third generation owners who don't know what they're doing. If you could relegate owners in the NFL, per se, I think the bad franchises would turn around over time. 

The auto-balancing features like draft picks and payroll caps definitely helps distribute the success and prevent hegemony, but the lack of relegation also means that really badly run teams still stick around forever.  There’s no relegation to incentivize the owner to change their bad model or to replace their team if they won’t.  Football’s relegation and promotion has more Darwinism, albeit sometimes of a pragmatic and unentertaining variety.

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26 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said:

The auto-balancing features like draft picks and payroll caps definitely helps distribute the success and prevent hegemony, but the lack of relegation also means that really badly run teams still stick around forever.  There’s no relegation to incentivize the owner to change their bad model or to replace their team if they won’t.  Football’s relegation and promotion has more Darwinism, albeit sometimes of a pragmatic and unentertaining variety.

I think relegation is one of the most fascinating aspects of European football (not sure how it works in other places), but it's just not realistic for American sports. The infrastructure isn't there and never will be even if you did away with NCAA football and basketball. That's why I mentioned relegating the owners. If the owners of the three last place teams were forced to sell each season, tanking would go away and eventually you'd have something as close to true parity as you can have. But that's a pipe dream.

Part of the reason I asked if the American owners were influencing this is because of the shift to a league without relegation. The business model of fixed revenue streams year over year in sports seems like a specifically American thing, and I think a huge part of the ESL is creating a more stable business model that can maximize profits in the U.S. and large Asian markets. I do also think it creates a new higher tier of competitive football, but that's a secondary motivation. This is probably one last massive cash grab as sports in general struggle with the changing media landscape. 

One thing I don't get though as an outsider is the cries I'm hearing that fans may quit their clubs. I'd get that if a team link Man U relocated to play in another country/league, but changing the tournaments they're in seems more like something that would just take a bit of time to adjust to. But I say that having a hard time believing leagues would throw out their biggest cash cows (and I seriously doubt FIFA would be so dumb as to try and ban all their top players from the WC, which seems legally dubious at best).

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