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Fragile Bird

Covid-19 #30: Vaccines and All That JJAZ

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Padraig said:

 Nobody knew much.  There were a lot of anectotes.  But you can't ignore a story just because you don't know everything.

I'm not ignoring it, but I find little value in anecdotes where things like this are said

Quote

“The current wave of Covid has a different clinical behavior,” said Dr. Sujay Shad, a senior cardiac surgeon at Sir Ganga Ram Hospital, where two of the doctors needed supplemental oxygen to recover. “It’s affecting young adults. It’s affecting families. It’s a new thing altogether. Two-month-old babies are getting infected.”

We've known that it can affect young adults and we know that household transmission is also very common. What 'different clinical behaviour' have I learned after reading that? Okay, maybe you can make the argument that two month old babies getting infected might be the 'different clinical behaviour', but again, that is really not saying much and there is no attempt to provide details. Same with 'new thing altogether' - again, I have no idea what they mean ( the diarrhea stuff later in the piece is lacking as well)

I still don't think there is enough information there regarding the doctors getting covid whilst being vaccinated, particularly as the article goes onto say the following.

Quote

Officials in India are trying to track how many fully vaccinated people have fallen ill, a measure called the breakthrough infection rate. That could suggest how virulent any variant in India might be. They have focused on frontline medical workers, who are more likely to have received both doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine.

So far, data from the Indian Council of Medical Research up to April 21 shows an extremely low breakthrough infection rate

Plus, we're not even sure how good these vaccines are at preventing infections altogether, yes? What were the characteristics of these doctors that got the infection after vaccination? Was it mild? Did they require oxygen? How many of them required ICU admission? CPAP? Did they have severe disease?

Maybe I expect a lot better than that article, I do not think that is unreasonable. To me, articles have to be more than quotes without substance and without detail. And the NYT has done this multiple times during the last few months, there were articles about COVID 19 and how it affects the heart which also suffered from similar issues.

I think we'll agree to disagree on the merits of that article.

2 hours ago, Padraig said:

Maybe that is still overly alarming but what is going on in India is alarming.

I know it's alarming. I'm Indian and my whole family is in India. They also live in the state with the worst outbreak.

Edited by Raja

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Raja said:

I know it's alarming. I'm Indian and my whole family is in India. They also live in the state with the worst outbreak.

This is awful for you, because there's nothing you can do -- like us, with what is happening to our familia and friends in Cuba, and we can't even send them money, because of what the rethugs have done, and the orange demon and Miami finished.

Just now Biden in his address to Congress, stated, "white supremacy is terrorism."  And there it is, for us all around the world. Racism, bigotry of every kind destroys each of us and the planet.

 

 

Edited by Zorral

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I got pfizer #2 this morning and was not prepared for diarrhea (anything but that!). Arm got super sore right off the bat, and I'm now starting to get achey all over. 

100% worth it. 

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Posted (edited)

I'm sorry Raja :(

So Poland is coming out of the third wave and a lot of articles were mentioning similar stuff as the India article “It’s affecting young adults. It’s affecting families. It’s a new thing altogether. Two-month-old babies are getting infected.”

My take on that is

1) the British variant (which is common in Poland) does actually affect younger people and children more - it's been said it's more contagious and more symptomatic in younger people

2) many more people are getting infected than during the second wave (we didn't really have a first wave to speak of) so you obviously see more younger people affected

3) people (and especially younger people) are tired of restrictions and aren't as compliant, so they get sick more.

4) older people are vaccinated to a much higher degree so fewer get sick, which means that you mostly see younger people getting sick

BUT

it's also been reported that the actual age of people who are dying or end up in ICU hasn't really changed. It still kills older people.

---

I would also agree that some doctors falling ill is not that mysterious for  reasons Pod already mentioned. Doctors are exposed to much higher viral loads than regular people, and I bet their PPE is not always that meticulous in a crisis situation because there's no time for making sure it is.

Edited by Filippa Eilhart

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I’m really sorry Raja, it’s so sad and frightening what’s happening in India. :( 

The situation here is quite similar to what Filippa described above. I addition,

- the willingness to get vaccinated has slowed down to the point that if it doesn’t pick up, we will have more vaccines than people who want one by June. 

- several restrictions (that have been regularly broken anyway by younger people) were lifted promoting free(r) social mingling

- there’s an overall sensation that the pandemic is “over” which is hardly the reality especially when we look at what’s going on in India or Brazil. Or you know, just the wee fact the we have the most deaths by population in the world (that is if statistics are to be trusted). And before we know, wave 4 will be on us and only god knows what it will bring. 
 

It’s sad to accept that there’s no end in sight.

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8 hours ago, Raja said:

I know it's alarming. I'm Indian and my whole family is in India. They also live in the state with the worst outbreak.

I'm sorry to hear that.  I hope things improve very soon.

We probably are coming at the article from two different directions.  An article can work by giving less knowledgeable people a small sense of what is going on in another country.  But it may not work at all if you already have a very good sense of what is going on.

9 hours ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

et’s assume that we will all need a re-up in 12-24 months.  DOES IT MATTER WHICH SHOT YOU GET?  That is, if you originally got Moderna, will you have to seek that out or will any MRNA shot do?  What about an adenovirus base?  What about the Novovax shot?  

I'm assuming it doesn't.  As you suggest, Novavax (and many other developing vaccines) could mainly be used as boosters in the US.  That wouldn't work if you had to be consistent with your original dose.

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The mayor's announced the entire city is to open entirely on July 1st.

It's the same scenario as initially with the corona virus in China -- it's not here, we're fine.  India and Brasil -- and Mexico and most of Latin America are surging out of control, and he is going to stop all the safety containment protocols.

O the fall is going to be just Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr8!

In the meantime, the costs of everything from gasoline (we are even having shortages in areas already; there aren't enough drivers for the tanker truck deliveries x-country), to tampex and food are going up steeply on June 1st.

 

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Got dose 2 of Pfizer about 3 hours ago. The mass vaccination site I was at seemed to be at about 75% capacity, maybe a bit less. When I had gotten dose 1 they were at full capacity, and turning away people with appointments until 5 minutes before their scheduled time. This time they were much more relaxed.

Not feeling any side effects yet, but its still early going.

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https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/almost-70-of-adults-in-england-now-have-coronavirus-antibodies-latest-figures-suggest-12289249
 

Almost 70% of adults in England now have antibodies for Covid. Which is flipping marvellous. This is getting closer to herd immunity every day, and you would expect if there was the ‘data not dates’ approach the government promised then we might be opening up a little quicker than we are.

Very good news though 

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20 minutes ago, Heartofice said:


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/almost-70-of-adults-in-england-now-have-coronavirus-antibodies-latest-figures-suggest-12289249
 

Almost 70% of adults in England now have antibodies for Covid. Which is flipping marvellous. This is getting closer to herd immunity every day, and you would expect if there was the ‘data not dates’ approach the government promised then we might be opening up a little quicker than we are.

Very good news though 

It's excellent news, and makes me hope that at this rate that our case count might begin to drop a bit more as it's been static at ~2.5k/day for a while now. Certainly it seems possible that that could drop in the next two months.

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47 minutes ago, Leap said:

It's excellent news, and makes me hope that at this rate that our case count might begin to drop a bit more as it's been static at ~2.5k/day for a while now. Certainly it seems possible that that could drop in the next two months.

I think getting to 2.5k from basically 60k is a fantastic achievement. Deaths are also very very low which is worth noting 

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I think getting to 2.5k from basically 60k is a fantastic achievement. Deaths are also very very low which is worth noting 

It really is, in fact I think it was one of the most rapid drops in cases that's been seen throughout the pandemic. But opening too quickly was the mistake we've made twice already, and I'd rather wait the extra few weeks now than have to deal with cases rising again in six weeks time, even if there's a cap on how they can go. To be honest I think cases would have dropped further by now if we hadn't opened outdoor pubs up.

 

Edit: although having been to the pub a few times, I do not overly regret that decision.

Edited by Leap

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24 minutes ago, Leap said:

It really is, in fact I think it was one of the most rapid drops in cases that's been seen throughout the pandemic. But opening too quickly was the mistake we've made twice already, and I'd rather wait the extra few weeks now than have to deal with cases rising again in six weeks time, even if there's a cap on how they can go. To be honest I think cases would have dropped further by now if we hadn't opened outdoor pubs up.

Sure you could get cases to 0 if you locked everyone in their houses. But that’s the trade off isn’t it. I’m sure if you owned a pub or a shop you are happy that people  are able to come to you.

 

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25 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Sure you could get cases to 0 if you locked everyone in their houses. But that’s the trade off isn’t it. I’m sure if you owned a pub or a shop you are happy that people  are able to come to you.

 

I'm also sure that people who own pubs and shops would prefer to have locked down for an extra month last Spring/Summer and avoided the subsequent 5 months of lockdown we've had since. 

We do have the vaccine now, that's true, but as of yet we've only fully vaccinated a quarter of the adult population. I can easily see a situation where we lift restrictions now and not only get a case surge but a case surge that features one of the variants (e.g. Brazil) that is much more dangerous to the young + children, i.e. the unvaccinated. That's a worst case scenario, sure, but I think reason enough to not jump the gun.

 

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Posted (edited)

I know a lot of places where 2m+ masks or mask and gloves worked really well and even positive people did not infect people they touched(in retirement homes and homes for handicapped people). I think only the first lockdown would have been necessary if western societies did not have a large percentage of stupid fuckwads(amplified by facebook/whatsapp/telegram) and next to no enforcement of many laws and rules when they are violated by privileged groups(because all police orgs in western countries are to some degree far right). 

The people who hate the lockdowns the most are the ones that are to blame for the situation that made them necessary.

Edited by Luzifer's right hand

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Biontech/Pfizer applied  today at the EMA for approval of their vaccine for the 12-15 year old. It could be granted quite quickly (June?), but if will be September or so until the teenagers can get any vaccine.

I have to admit I am not sure how to feel about this. On the one hand this is really great news, herd immunity could be achieved so much quicker if we include these groups. On the other hand I do have two daughters and I am just unsure about the risk balance. while it totally makes sense for every adult to get vaccinated, I think there are close to zero cases of deaths in this young age group- and we can not know the long term side effects of vaccination yet (long term means two years, but the vaccine was in phase III just last summer, so we have data for one year max) ? I just have a not so good feeling about this.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

Biontech/Pfizer applied  today at the EMA for approval of their vaccine for the 12-15 year old. It could be granted quite quickly (June?), but if will be September or so until the teenagers can get any vaccine.

I have to admit I am not sure how to feel about this. On the one hand this is really great news, herd immunity could be achieved so much quicker if we include these groups. On the other hand I do have two daughters and I am just unsure about the risk balance. while it totally makes sense for every adult to get vaccinated, I think there are close to zero cases of deaths in this young age group- and we can not know the long term side effects of vaccination yet (long term means two years, but the vaccine was in phase III just last summer, so we have data for one year max) ? I just have a not so good feeling about this.

There have been cases with some long covid symptoms in kids who had no symptoms during the infection. I think trusting the real docs and experts might be the best approach. It seems likely the side effects of a real infection will be worse percent wise than that of the vaccine and we are talking about a virus that will most likely still infect close a 100% of the unvaccinated people because the anti-vaxxers will make herd immunity impossible even if it would be doable otherwise. Infection is not an if but a when question here imho which is different from most other vaccines. 

Edited by Luzifer's right hand

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27 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

Biontech/Pfizer applied  today at the EMA for approval of their vaccine for the 12-15 year old. It could be granted quite quickly (June?), but if will be September or so until the teenagers can get any vaccine.

I have to admit I am not sure how to feel about this. On the one hand this is really great news, herd immunity could be achieved so much quicker if we include these groups. On the other hand I do have two daughters and I am just unsure about the risk balance. while it totally makes sense for every adult to get vaccinated, I think there are close to zero cases of deaths in this young age group- and we can not know the long term side effects of vaccination yet (long term means two years, but the vaccine was in phase III just last summer, so we have data for one year max) ? I just have a not so good feeling about this.

My children are getting the vaccine as soon as it is available to them.  The very moment.

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I just got scheduled for my second shot next week.   I'm looking forward to it, but we have two small children so it won't significantly change our behavior.  My county has fallen BACK into phase 2, and is likely going to be in phase 1 at the rate we're going, so I don't trust anyone outside of my immediate group to actually be honest about the shots.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

My children are getting the vaccine as soon as it is available to them.  The very moment.

Same.

Even my borderline antivaxxer, 'I'm sick of covid' and other bullshit type fuckery inclined ex-wife is down with that [if only because the girls said they don't want to return to in-person schooling come September unless they're vaccinated] Our girls are 11 and 13. Even if ex changes her mind, they're getting the jab. I'll just do it and deal with her petty bullshit afterward.

Like go on and f u c k  a l l  t h e  w a y  o f f       

Edited by JEORDHl

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