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Hatching Dragons


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10 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Unless the whole practice of giving dragon eggs to young Targaryens stopped.  Either because it was fruitless.  Or perhaps because of the events of Summerhall.  It seems like Summerhall was a fairly traumatic event for the Targaryens, and it may have been traumatic enough for the Targaryens to put away their eggs and their dragon dreams.  At least for a time.

Since Egg and his siblings still had dragon eggs, I expect he continued that tradition, meaning up to Aerys II and Rhaella and even unborn Rhaegar dragon eggs were given/set aside. And I also expect that many eggs were lost and destroyed, not just at Summerhall.

But this raises an interesting conundrum. If all of Egg's children got dragon eggs then why don't the Baratheons have at least one even prior to the Rebellion? Rhaelle Targaryen would have had an egg in such a scenario, and after her death it would have passed to her son Steffon and from him to Robert.

With Ormund and Rhaelle having only one child - and the seed being strong - it also stands to reason that Rhaelle Targaryen died early in her marriage, possibly in childbirth when she delivered Steffon, or shortly thereafter in another pregnancy. If she had lived to Summerhall then her egg could have been lost there. And perhaps it was, if she lived to be there ... or if Steffon was there in her stead.

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My guess is there had to be at least one egg in King's Landing at the time of the Sack.  I think Aerys belief in King's Landing as a funeral pyre with him emerging as a dragon was probably based on more than complete delusion.  I think Aerys believed that lighting up Kings Landing might hatch one of his precious dragons, and perhaps transfer his spirt/consciousness into the dragon.

I don't think that's necessary or a likely scenario. Aerion Brightflame thought wildfire could transform him into a dragon, that he had always been a dragon in human form. Aerys II could have believed something similar in the end. The Targaryens are the blood of the dragon, they do not need trinkets and artifacts to *become* what they think they *are*.

And of course those delusions about them being dragons and stuff isn't just 'normal madness' but rather one of the side effects of whatever the Valyrian dragonlords of old did to acquire their unique ability to bond with dragons.

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On 4/14/2021 at 12:07 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

The first attempt of the modern Targaryens to hatch dragons ended in failure. Aegon V died, family, and KG died. No eggs hatched. He had all of the ingredients and failed.

Daenerys successfully hatched her three dragon eggs on the Dothraki Sea.  Her brother, husband, and son died shortly before the dragons arrived.  She was the right chef with the correct ingredients at the right time. Azor Ahai, Dany, was the person fated to bring back the dragons.  This was the third attempt.  
 

I believe there was an attempt between these two events. The third worked. The previous two attempts failed. This second attempt most likely took place at the Tower Of Joy. Rhaegar had an egg.  He tried to hatch the egg and failed.  Edard would have found the egg. A little burnt but still intact.  It’s probably buried with Ser Gerold Hightower.
 

 

Dragon eggs are very valuable.  Rhaegar and Prince Viserys did not have their own eggs.  That is telling me that there were none to be had during the reign of King Aerys II.  I don't think Rhaegar had one with him at the tower.  My theory, all eggs were lost during the debacle that was Summerhall.  

The dragon eggs were not going to hatch for Aegon V.  Daenerys is the only one who had the power to bring the dragons back from extinction because she is Azor Ahai.  The Red Comet appeared to announce her rebirth as well as those of her dragons.  

 

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On 4/14/2021 at 12:07 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

The first attempt of the modern Targaryens to hatch dragons ended in failure. Aegon V died, family, and KG died. No eggs hatched. He had all of the ingredients and failed.

Daenerys successfully hatched her three dragon eggs on the Dothraki Sea.  Her brother, husband, and son died shortly before the dragons arrived.  She was the right chef with the correct ingredients at the right time. Azor Ahai, Dany, was the person fated to bring back the dragons.  This was the third attempt.  
 

I believe there was an attempt between these two events. The third worked. The previous two attempts failed. This second attempt most likely took place at the Tower Of Joy. Rhaegar had an egg.  He tried to hatch the egg and failed.  Edard would have found the egg. A little burnt but still intact.  It’s probably buried with Ser Gerold Hightower.
 

 

A plot to hatch a dragon and then raise that dragon at a time passed the eleventh hour?  The time to do that was a decade before the rebellion.  I don't think so.  Rhaegar was on that tower because he was commanded by his father to kidnap the Stark girl.  Lyanna was the center of the plot to link the rebels.  She was to be the person who will bind the conspirators together.  Get rid of her and the blood bond between Stark and Baratheon will not take place.  

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On 4/16/2021 at 7:14 PM, Rondo said:

Dragon eggs are very valuable.  Rhaegar and Prince Viserys did not have their own eggs.  That is telling me that there were none to be had during the reign of King Aerys II.  I don't think Rhaegar had one with him at the tower.  My theory, all eggs were lost during the debacle that was Summerhall.  

The dragon eggs were not going to hatch for Aegon V.  Daenerys is the only one who had the power to bring the dragons back from extinction because she is Azor Ahai.  The Red Comet appeared to announce her rebirth as well as those of her dragons.  

 

We know that theory can’t be true from the Worldbook quote:

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In the wake of Duskendale, the king also began to display signs of an ever-increasing obsession with dragonfire, similar to that which had haunted several of his forebears. Lord Darklyn would never have dared defy him if he had been a dragonrider, Aerys reasoned. His attempts to bring forth dragons from eggs found in the depths of Dragonstone (some so old that they had turned to stone) yielded naught, however.

So there were definitely still dragon eggs during the reign of King Aerys II.

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8 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

A plot to hatch a dragon and then raise that dragon at a time passed the eleventh hour?  The time to do that was a decade before the rebellion.  I don't think so.  Rhaegar was on that tower because he was commanded by his father to kidnap the Stark girl.  Lyanna was the center of the plot to link the rebels.  She was to be the person who will bind the conspirators together.  Get rid of her and the blood bond between Stark and Baratheon will not take place.  

I don’t understand your time concerns.  If Rhaegar was trying to hatch dragons, then it would be to help fulfill his son’s role as the prince that was promised.  And that role had nothing to do with a political game of thrones.  

That role was to fight in the Battle for the Dawn.

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Rhaegar mistakenly believed in his own importance. He would have tried to hatch an egg in order to fulfill his destiny, save the dynasty, and prepare for the long night. It may not work but he has to try. At least in his mind.  It is a theory. I don’t claim it a fact.  
 

 

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Sacrife. No way Egg incorporated a sacrfice into the Summerhall attempt, people died, but not as a sacrifice.  Dany did.

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The godswife did not cry out as they dragged her to Khal Drogo's pyre and staked her down amidst his treasures. Dany poured the oil over the woman's head herself. "I thank you, Mirri Maz Duur," she said, "for the lessons you have taught me." - A Game of Thrones - Daenerys X

 

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Good theory, decent possibility.

Rhaegar purposely conceived Jon with the expectation Jon would have to die for dragons to be born, to save the world in the war for the dawn. How Jon's death would have to come about, or if he would have to kill Jon himself, I don't know that Rhaegar knew. But as the OP suggests it's a decent theory that he did think he was going to have to carry it out and was planning it then and there at the TOJ. And so Lyanna's beliefs become a mystery, and what exactly she asked Ned to promise her could become a twist.

Summerhall would have worked had Rhaegar died, that was the difference between Dany's and Summerhall's events, the death of the child not coincidentally named Rhaego. The sabotage at Summerhall was for the purpose of waking dragons. Someone (probably Shiera) knew that it takes sacrifice, and that Egg would never consider allowing that, so they secretly sabotaged the event so that the required sacrifices would occur and dragons would be born. But (against all odds) Dunk saved baby Rhaegar so it didn't happen.

So I'd responded to a sacrifice at the TOJ theory back when I was more across the details. Rhaegar naming the place the Tower of Joy if he intended to make a sacrifice of a child there seems crazy sadistic, and that's not Rhaegar. He was a profoundly sad character because of the sacrifices he thought were needed to be made. And GRRM particularly wanted us to know he named it that.

I think it possible we will learn Rhaegar intended to sacrifice Jon, and then later learn that at the end he changed his mind and so too his life and outlook by freeing himself from the trappings of prophesy. Maybe that emancipation spurred him to name the place.

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On 4/14/2021 at 12:07 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

The first attempt of the modern Targaryens to hatch dragons ended in failure. Aegon V died, family, and KG died. No eggs hatched. He had all of the ingredients and failed.

Daenerys successfully hatched her three dragon eggs on the Dothraki Sea.  Her brother, husband, and son died shortly before the dragons arrived.  She was the right chef with the correct ingredients at the right time. Azor Ahai, Dany, was the person fated to bring back the dragons.  This was the third attempt.  
 

I believe there was an attempt between these two events. The third worked. The previous two attempts failed. This second attempt most likely took place at the Tower Of Joy. Rhaegar had an egg.  He tried to hatch the egg and failed.  Edard would have found the egg. A little burnt but still intact.  It’s probably buried with Ser Gerold Hightower.
 

 

I think the missing ingredient that Dany found was sacrifice. Her pyre had the two things she valued most in all the world, her son and her sun and stars, coupled with the person she despised most of all, the women who took them from her. So just like AA and Nissa Nissa, she had to sacrifice her greatest treasure in order to get a new one. None of the earlier Targs who tried to hatch eggs put up that kind of sacrifice, so their attempts failed. And this ties in with the idea that "only life can pay for death," but it has to be a comparable life.

And maybe Rhaegar was trying to hatch in egg at the ToJ, but I think the odds are better that it was Aerys. There really isn't any evidence that Rhaegar was involved in Lyanna's disappearance or was ever with her after Harrenhal. But Aerys had the motivation to kidnap them both separately, and he had the ability to spread the kidnapping tale. Then he could have impregnated Lyanna (or maybe dose both her and Rhaegar with a love potion to get them to do it) and sent her to the ToJ with his three best guards because he wanted to protect something that was very important to him: the life that would have hatched a dragon egg. It probably wouldn't have worked because, again, it's not really a sacrifice for him, but Aerys would not have known that.

 

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  • 5 months later...
On 4/16/2021 at 12:26 AM, Jay21 said:

You know after my most recent pass through Fire and Blood I suspect that the 'blood of the dragon' or the targ gene or what have you is in the female side of the line not the male, I don't even see any evidence that contradicts the theory that Aegon the Conqueror could have even infertile. Rhaenyra's blood was why the Strong's dragons hatched. Laenor or Harwin had nothing to do with it... If you look at the Targ marriages outside of the line - Valeryons, Baratheons, Martels a targ woman was married into that clan and then her daughter was married back into the Targs. Everything got sloppy after the Lysene Spring though. It would be interesting to try and rewrite the whole Targ bloodline matrilinearilly (?) and see what's hidden. 

Anyway, to get back on topic, it wouldn't seem inconsistent if Dany's being a woman was relevant to the rebirth of dragons given that whatever affinity exists between Targaryens and dragons seems to be carried in the Targ women.  

If this is true it may add another layer to Illyrio's 'The Blackfyre's are all dead in the male line' bit since the male line was only carrying the name Blackfyre, not anything essentially Targaryen.

There were 3 dragons hatched, perhaps 3 lives were sacrificed? I count MMD, Rhaego and possibly Dany herself, but I'm still on the fence as to whether or not she died in that fire. In retrospect, she probably shouldn't have snuffed out Drogo and saved him for the sacrifice, but she was operating without instructions and she probably didn't see any value in immolating him alive at the time.  Anyway I'm pretty sure that Dany and the Pyre are another thread or 200 in here somewhere.

That doesn't make sense though. Meriah martell, dyanna dayne and betha Blackwood don't have blood of the dragon still dany hatched the dragons

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On 9/26/2021 at 5:07 AM, Daenerysthegreat said:

That doesn't make sense though. Meriah martell, dyanna dayne and betha Blackwood don't have blood of the dragon still dany hatched the dragons

Unless a pure blooded Valyrian girl who spent the first 3 or 4 years of her life in Dorne with a lemon tree outside her window was brought to Braavos to play the part of Viserys' "sweet sister" Daenerys.  

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On 9/26/2021 at 1:07 PM, Daenerysthegreat said:

Meriah martell, dyanna dayne and betha Blackwood don't have blood of the dragon still dany hatched the dragons

I found clues in the books based on which it seems that all three of those women were partially Targaryens by blood.

Betha Blackwood's mother was Mya Rivers - bastard-daughter of Aegon IV, and one of Bloodraven's sisters.

Dyanna Dayne was a great-granddaughter of Princess Rhaena Targaryen (half-sister of Viserys II). So Dyanna and her husband Maekar Targaryen, actually were third cousins.

Maekar's other two brothers also married with Princess Rhaena's great-granddaughters. So Jenna Dondarrion and her husband Baelor Breakspear, Alys Arryn and her husband Prince Rhaegel, were third cousins, same as Maekar and Dyanna.

And their fourth brother - Aerys I, who married with Aelinor Penrose, was his wife's second cousin. <- This part is actually a bit complicated. Larra Rogare was a shadowbinder, she and her husband conspired with Gaemon Palehair and killed Aegon III. Then Larra shadow-glamoured Aegon's corpse to look like Gaemon's corpse, and shadow-glamoured Gaemon to look like Aegon. So the real Aegon actually died in 135 AC, and from then on he was impersonated by Gaemon, and sometimes by Larra or Viserys. Thus Queen Daenaera Velaryon's five children weren't fathered by Aegon III, instead Baelor the Blessed and septa Rhaena were the children of Gaemon Palehair, and the other three - Daeron I, Daena the Defiant, and Princess Elaena - were fathered by Viserys II. Thus Aegon IV and Princess Elaena were not first cousins, how it was in the official history, instead they were half-siblings, so their children were first cousins, and their grandchildren were second cousins. Elaena married with Ronnel Penrose and they had four children, including a son - Robin Penrose. Aelinor Penrose is Robin's daughter, thus she is her husband's second cousin. Aerys I was Aegon's grandson, and Aelinor was Elaena's granddaughter, and because Aegon and Elaena were siblings (and not cousins), their children to each other were second cousins. Though when King Daeron II was marrying off his four sons to their cousins, he didn't knew that Princess Elaena was Aegon IV's half-sister, not his cousin, thus Daeron thought that Elaena's granddaughter - Aelinor Penrose, was a third cousin to his sons (not a second cousin how it really was).

Thus Daeron II thought that he had married all four of his sons with the women that were their third cousins.

Daeron himself also got married with his cousin. Daeron's paternal grandmother was Larra Rogare, and her father - Lysandro Rogare, had a youger brother - Drazenko. Larra married with Viserys II Targaryen, and her uncle - Drazenko Rogare, had married with the Dornish Princess - Aliandra Martell. Their son was that Prince of Dorne who was the father of Myriah and Maron Martells. So Daeron II and his sister Daenerys Targaryen were their spouses' second cousins once removed.

Like this:

Laena Velaryon + Daemon

Daemon + Rhaenyra

Lysandro Rogare + Johanna Swann

Drazenko Rogare + Aliandra Martell

 

Rhaena Targaryen + Garmund Hightower

Viserys II

+ Larra Rogare

+ {Daenaera Velaryon}

son

+ wife

6 daugters

Aegon IV, Aemon, Naerys; {Daeron I, Daena, Elaena} + Ronnel Penrose

Myriah, Maron

2nd cousins once removed of their spouses

grandchildren

Myriah Martell +

Daeron II, Daenerys; {Robin Penrose} + wife

Dyanna Dayne, Jenna Dondarrion, Alys Arryn

<- 3rd cousins ->

Baelor, Aerys I, Rhaegel, Maekar; {Aelinor Penrose}

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cregan Stark + Alysanne Blackwood

 

 

 

Mariah Stark + Blackwood-husband

 

 

 

Melissa Blackwood + Aegon IV

 

 

 

Mya Rivers + Blackwood-husband

 

 

Willam Stark +

Melantha, Betha Blackwood

+ Aegon V

Thus Myriah Martell was 1/4 Valyrian thru her paternal (Rogare) grandfather, Betha Blackwood was 1/4 Targaryen thru her maternal grandfather (Aegon IV), and Dyanna Dayne was 1/8 Targaryen thru her great-grandmother (Rhaena Targaryen). And GRRM on purpose made this all so complicated. Though the point is - Dany is 100% pureblooded Targaryen, despite the presence of all those other last names on her family tree.

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On 4/22/2021 at 11:17 AM, John Suburbs said:

I think the missing ingredient that Dany found was sacrifice. Her pyre had the two things she valued most in all the world, her son and her sun and stars, coupled with the person she despised most of all, the women who took them from her. So just like AA and Nissa Nissa, she had to sacrifice her greatest treasure in order to get a new one. None of the earlier Targs who tried to hatch eggs put up that kind of sacrifice, so their attempts failed. And this ties in with the idea that "only life can pay for death," but it has to be a comparable life.

And maybe Rhaegar was trying to hatch in egg at the ToJ, but I think the odds are better that it was Aerys. There really isn't any evidence that Rhaegar was involved in Lyanna's disappearance or was ever with her after Harrenhal. But Aerys had the motivation to kidnap them both separately, and he had the ability to spread the kidnapping tale. Then he could have impregnated Lyanna (or maybe dose both her and Rhaegar with a love potion to get them to do it) and sent her to the ToJ with his three best guards because he wanted to protect something that was very important to him: the life that would have hatched a dragon egg. It probably wouldn't have worked because, again, it's not really a sacrifice for him, but Aerys would not have known that.

 

Oh there were plenty of sacrifice in Summerhall. But Egg V was not Azor Ahai. Only Dany is Azor Ahai and chosen by birth to bring back the dragons.  She is very special.

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8 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Unless a pure blooded Valyrian girl who spent the first 3 or 4 years of her life in Dorne with a lemon tree outside her window was brought to Braavos to play the part of Viserys' "sweet sister" Daenerys.  

That won’t hold water. The Undying repeatedly confirmed Dany’s identity. She is the Child of Three, Mother of Dragons. She comes from the family line of Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys.  It’s not in the character of Viserys to take care of an impostor. 

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7 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

That won’t hold water. The Undying repeatedly confirmed Dany’s identity. She is the Child of Three, Mother of Dragons. She comes from the family line of Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys.  It’s not in the character of Viserys to take care of an impostor. 

One can come from the line of Aegon, Viseny, and Rhaenys without coming from the royal Targaryen line.  After all the royal Targaryen line (at the end) was really descended from Viserys II who never hatched a dragon and his bride from a Lysenean banking house.  

In the meanntime we have many offshoots from actual dragon riders.  Like House Velaryon, Plumm, and even Longwaters.  And of course there is always House Blackfyre.  

The legal title to House Targaryen at the end of their line had very little resemblance to the blood line of Aegon the conqueror and his sister wives.

And it is very much in the character of Viserys to do whatever he can to get an army to claim his birthright.  The only problem is he didn't have much of a coin to get an army.  Unless of course he had access to a Targaryen princess.  Then he could pull the wool over the eyes of some dupe.  Like perhaps a stupid Dothraki barbarian.

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There were probably at least two other attempts. When discussing raising dragons from stone in ASOS, Davos III, these are all listed:

“Did we learn nothing from Aerion Brightfire, from the nine mages, from the alchemists? Did we learn nothing from Summerhall? No good has ever come from these dreams of dragons, I told Axell as much.”

Aerion died drinking wildfire to turn him into a dragon, so maybe it’s that. Or he tried something else to hatch a dragon. Summerhall means The Tragedy of Summerhall, but we don’t know what “the nine mages” means. “The alchemists” could refer to Aerys’ wildfire plot, or something else. We also know that Baelor the Blessed prayed over eggs to make the hatch.

@Lord VarysI have essentially no proof for this, but I wonder if there was a bit of a Valyrian Revival after Aegon III died. We know he had the dragon eggs removed from the Red Keep in 134 or 125 AC (after which Viserys didn’t speak to him for a month). He also refused to let his sister’s dragon, Morning, on progress or anywhere near him. If this anti-dragon kick continued past the death of Morning and after his own children were born, I’m sure Daena, Elaena, Rhaena, Daeron, and Baelor didn’t get them in their cradles.

Viserys III was very pro-dragon and pro-Valyrian traditions, like marrying his children to each other, so I’m sure he would have liked to see them reborn. Aegon III had wooden “dragons” constructed as weapons of war.  With Baelor wanting dragons so much he prayed over the eggs, I would speculate he gave baby Daeron II an egg.

It would make sense for a revival to occur as Daeron II had his children and grandchildren and almost even great-grandchildren, the most loving Targaryens since before the Dance.

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46 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Elaena married with Ronnel Penrose and they had four children, including a son - Robin Penrose. Aelinor Penrose is Robin's daughter, thus she is her husband's second cousin.

@Ran has already confirmed that Aelinor is not descended from Elaena. Most likely she has a Martell mother or is descended from Baela Velaryon or Rhaena Hightower.  

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16 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

@Ran has already confirmed that Aelinor is not descended from Elaena. Most likely she has a Martell mother or is descended from Baela Velaryon or Rhaena Hightower.  

We know that Aelinor Penrose is a cousin of King Aerys I on the Targaryen side, i.e. no descendant on the Martell side.

The best guess at this point, in my opinion, is that she is ultimately descended from the second Laena Velaryon, who could be the mother of Ronnel Penrose, Elaena's second husband. If Ronnel was a Targaryen cousin himself his marriage to Elaena makes more sense (and also the fact that he was apparently a close friend of Daeron II - as a Targaryen cousin he could have been fostered at court, growing up with young Daeron) and we can imagine Aelinor as Ronnel's daughter from a hypothetical first marriage.

16 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

There were probably at least two other attempts. When discussing raising dragons from stone in ASOS, Davos III, these are all listed:

“Did we learn nothing from Aerion Brightfire, from the nine mages, from the alchemists? Did we learn nothing from Summerhall? No good has ever come from these dreams of dragons, I told Axell as much.”

Aerion died drinking wildfire to turn him into a dragon, so maybe it’s that. Or he tried something else to hatch a dragon. Summerhall means The Tragedy of Summerhall, but we don’t know what “the nine mages” means. “The alchemists” could refer to Aerys’ wildfire plot, or something else. We also know that Baelor the Blessed prayed over eggs to make the hatch.

We know that the nine mages thing took place during the reign of Aegon III.

16 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

@Lord VarysI have essentially no proof for this, but I wonder if there was a bit of a Valyrian Revival after Aegon III died. We know he had the dragon eggs removed from the Red Keep in 134 or 125 AC (after which Viserys didn’t speak to him for a month). He also refused to let his sister’s dragon, Morning, on progress or anywhere near him. If this anti-dragon kick continued past the death of Morning and after his own children were born, I’m sure Daena, Elaena, Rhaena, Daeron, and Baelor didn’t get them in their cradles.

We do know that Elaena had a dragon egg, so I guess there is a good chance that Aegon III had overcome his fear of dragon eggs at least by the time his youngest daughter was born.

We also know that Viserys later convinced Aegon III to do the nine mages thing, so chances are pretty good that he understood that the dragons were important for the continued power of his dynasty.

16 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

Viserys III was very pro-dragon and pro-Valyrian traditions, like marrying his children to each other, so I’m sure he would have liked to see them reborn. Aegon III had wooden “dragons” constructed as weapons of war.  With Baelor wanting dragons so much he prayed over the eggs, I would speculate he gave baby Daeron II an egg.

We have to assume that even during the reign of Aegon III there were 'pro-dragon fellows' at court. We do have those with Viserys II, but also with Baela and Rhaena and even, in a sense, with Queen Daenaera Velaryon. Baelor's interest in dragons has to come from somewhere. If their father had not allowed his children contact with the last dragons or had removed all the dragon eggs, then the later Targaryens would have likely lost interest in the eggs.

But then - there also always those innate Targaryen dragon dreams and the like. Such things could certainly also trigger and fuel new desires of getting the dragons back. Aerion clearly would be such a case.

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The idea that Rhaegar found a dragon egg at Summerhall, the site of Egg's folly, isn't ridiculous.

Nor is the idea that he would have left an egg for Lyanna's child.

I wouldn't be surprised to find a silver harp and a dragon's egg are hidden in the Stark Crypt.

Like Dany literally woke dragons from stone and returned dragons to the world while being "reborn" in flame, Jon could well emerge from the Winterfell crypt "reborn", returning the house of the dragon to the world by awakening a Targaryen from among the Stone Kings in the crypts.

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