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Hatching Dragons


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On 9/27/2021 at 4:33 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

Oh there were plenty of sacrifice in Summerhall. But Egg V was not Azor Ahai. Only Dany is Azor Ahai and chosen by birth to bring back the dragons.  She is very special.

I don't know if I would count all the deaths at Summerhall as sacrifices. They were accidental. The only true sacrifice was to be Rhaegar, but he was not Egg's sacrifice, nor Aerys' -- so it probably would not have worked even if the whole plan didn't go tits up.

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6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I don't know if I would count all the deaths at Summerhall as sacrifices. They were accidental. The only true sacrifice was to be Rhaegar, but he was not Egg's sacrifice, nor Aerys' -- so it probably would not have worked even if the whole plan didn't go tits up.

The bottom line is Egg. He is not the promised one. Dany is the one chosen by fate to resurrect the dragons because she is Azor Ahai.  

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On 9/28/2021 at 4:25 PM, Lord Varys said:

We know that the nine mages thing took place during the reign of Aegon III.

We do know that Elaena had a dragon egg, so I guess there is a good chance that Aegon III had overcome his fear of dragon eggs at least by the time his youngest daughter was born.

We also know that Viserys later convinced Aegon III to do the nine mages thing, so chances are pretty good that he understood that the dragons were important for the continued power of his dynasty.

We have to assume that even during the reign of Aegon III there were 'pro-dragon fellows' at court. We do have those with Viserys II, but also with Baela and Rhaena and even, in a sense, with Queen Daenaera Velaryon. Baelor's interest in dragons has to come from somewhere. If their father had not allowed his children contact with the last dragons or had removed all the dragon eggs, then the later Targaryens would have likely lost interest in the eggs.

Aegon III died in 135 AC. He was poisoned by Larra and Viserys.

Larra was a shadowbinder, so she glamoured Aegon's corpse to look like Gaemon, and then she glamoured Gaemon to look like Aegon. So all of Aegon III's children were actually fathered not by him, because he was dead.

There was no "dragon restoration", or Aegon III overcoming his fears. The real Aegon was dead, and all those indulgences in anti-dragon politics were inserted by Viserys. Him and Larra made fake Aegon to do whatever they wanted, because he was Larra's "slave" controlled through a shadow-artifact, same as Melisandre controlled Mance/Rattleshirt through the ruby bracelet.

Do you really not see that? You've been on this forum for 15 years... :huh:

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8 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Ok i haven't read the secondary books but even I know that a faceless man didn't kill daeron i

It's not what I believe, but Megorova, who's famous for claiming almost every Targaryen died by the hands of the Faceless Men. I was just pointing out how one of his (ridiculous) theory is knocking out another one from the saddle. 

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11 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Ok i haven't read the secondary books but even I know that a faceless man didn't kill daeron i

I agree with that, and I never ever claimed that the Faceless Men killed Daeron I. In my opinion, they did killed Daeron II and maybe also Daeron the Drunken, but not Daeron I.

21 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Why did the Faceless Men kill Daeron I then? Didn't they know this much? We should expect more from them. 

3 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

It's not what I believe, but Megorova, who's famous for claiming almost every Targaryen died by the hands of the Faceless Men. I was just pointing out how one of his (ridiculous) theory is knocking out another one from the saddle. 

First of all, I'm not a he, I'm a she.

And you're the one who is wrong, not me - because I didn't wrote Daeron I amongst those Targaryens that were possibly killed by the Faceless Men (the list is in the Iron Shell part 4/4, Black Toll).

Also, if you have actually read my theories, then you would have known that in my opinion there are clues in TWOIAF that Johanna Swann and Larra Rogare/Serenei of Lys had an extended partnership with the Faceless Men. Johanna robbed Rogare Bank and at least used that money to hire FM to kill her husband and brother-in-law. Though, considering how much money she got from the Bank, it seems likely that she used it not only to pay for those two deaths, but also for the FM to stay away from Larra's family, including all of Viserys' children - three Larra's and three of Queen Daenaera's, icluding Daeron I, and also Daenaera's children fathered by Gaemon - Baelor the Blessed and septa Rhaena.

Also I have previously wrote that in my opinion the last Targaryen killed by the FM was Aegon II, then there was a several decades long pause (that's when the FM had a deal with the witches - Johanna and Larra, and then Shiera too), and then in 209 they killed Baelor Breakspear, and then Daeron II and many others, when their "vacation" ended. So all those Targaryens that died from 135 to 209 under some suspicious circumstances (Baelor the Blessed, Daeron I, Viserys II) weren't killed by the FM.

Shadow-Aegon III (Gaemon Palehair) died from consumptions, and considering that he was half-Targaryen (Aegon II's bastard), he should have had immunity to human diseases. So could be that he was poisoned, or maybe he died from constant stress (because for decades to hide under shadow-glamour pretending to be Aegon III, was very stressfull).

Also it is kind of suspicious that Viserys II died so soon after becoming the King. So could be that he also was poisoned. Though it's questionable who could have poisoned him. And I highly doubt that it were the FM. In my opinion there is a possibility that both Gaemon and Viserys were killed by Larra (because they both stopped being useful to her), who after getting rid of them, made her favourite son - Aegon IV - the King (and then she even had a child with him (as Serenei), killing him in the process (because Shiera's birth took all life force from her father, similar to what Melisandre's shadow-babies did to Stannis)).

The Faceless Men let Rhaena (who had six daughters), Elaena (who had 7 children), and Aegon IV (who had over 20 children) to reproduce without control. And that's not how they usually operated. Prior to Larra's settling at the 7K, the FM killed 11 out of King Jaehaerys' 13 children, and they have also killed majority of Jaehaerys' descendants. Though none during shadow-Aegon's reign and in the following years, all the way to 209 (when they did killed Baelor Breakspear). The only explanation of why more Targaryens haven't died between 135 and 209, is that the FM had a deal with the withes - Johanna, Larra/Serenei and Shiera.

Also, if Daeron I's death was the FM's doing, then they wouldn't have allowed Daeron II to marry with Myriah Martell, and Daenerys with Maron Martell, and to have with them multiple children and grandchildren. Daeron I's death was caused by those people who were against Dorne becoming part of the 7K, and the FM didn't cared about things like that, they were not political-killers, they were dragonseed-killers. And Daeron I's death was political, thus the FM are not behind his death.

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37 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I agree with that, and I never ever claimed that the Faceless Men killed Daeron I. In my opinion, they did killed Daeron II and maybe also Daeron the Drunken, but not Daeron I.

First of all, I'm not a he, I'm a she.

And you're the one who is wrong, not me - because I didn't wrote Daeron I amongst those Targaryens that were possibly killed by the Faceless Men (the list is in the Iron Shell part 4/4, Black Toll).

Also, if you have actually read my theories, then you would have known that in my opinion there are clues in TWOIAF that Johanna Swann and Larra Rogare/Serenei of Lys had an extended partnership with the Faceless Men. Johanna robbed Rogare Bank and at least used that money to hire FM to kill her husband and brother-in-law. Though, considering how much money she got from the Bank, it seems likely that she used it not only to pay for those two deaths, but also for the FM to stay away from Larra's family, including all of Viserys' children - three Larra's and three of Queen Daenaera's, icluding Daeron I, and also Daenaera's children fathered by Gaemon - Baelor the Blessed and septa Rhaena.

Also I have previously wrote that in my opinion the last Targaryen killed by the FM was Aegon II, then there was a several decades long pause (that's when the FM had a deal with the witches - Johanna and Larra, and then Shiera too), and then in 209 they killed Baelor Breakspear, and then Daeron II and many others, when their "vacation" ended. So all those Targaryens that died from 135 to 209 under some suspicious circumstances (Baelor the Blessed, Daeron I, Viserys II) weren't killed by the FM.

Shadow-Aegon III (Gaemon Palehair) died from consumptions, and considering that he was half-Targaryen (Aegon II's bastard), he should have had immunity to human diseases. So could be that he was poisoned, or maybe he died from constant stress (because for decades to hide under shadow-glamour pretending to be Aegon III, was very stressfull).

Also it is kind of suspicious that Viserys II died so soon after becoming the King. So could be that he also was poisoned. Though it's questionable who could have poisoned him. And I highly doubt that it were the FM. In my opinion there is a possibility that both Gaemon and Viserys were killed by Larra (because they both stopped being useful to her), who after getting rid of them, made her favourite son - Aegon IV - the King (and then she even had a child with him (as Serenei), killing him in the process (because Shiera's birth took all life force from her father, similar to what Melisandre's shadow-babies did to Stannis)).

The Faceless Men let Rhaena (who had six daughters), Elaena (who had 7 children), and Aegon IV (who had over 20 children) to reproduce without control. And that's not how they usually operated. Prior to Larra's settling at the 7K, the FM killed 11 out of King Jaehaerys' 13 children, and they have also killed majority of Jaehaerys' descendants. Though none during shadow-Aegon's reign and in the following years, all the way to 209 (when they did killed Baelor Breakspear). The only explanation of why more Targaryens haven't died between 135 and 209, is that the FM had a deal with the withes - Johanna, Larra/Serenei and Shiera.

Also, if Daeron I's death was the FM's doing, then they wouldn't have allowed Daeron II to marry with Myriah Martell, and Daenerys with Maron Martell, and to have with them multiple children and grandchildren. Daeron I's death was caused by those people who were against Dorne becoming part of the 7K, and the FM didn't cared about things like that, they were not political-killers, they were dragonseed-killers. And Daeron I's death was political, thus the FM are not behind his death.

Megorova's theories are somewhat believable. Faceless Men Death Cult is easy to believe especially since we know Braavos's enmity toward Dragonlords and the Freehold. I think there is even a theory that the FM killed too many Valyrian firemages and caused the Doom of Valyria. But the problem is, even if it is a plausible theory, I don't think Martin will incorporate it into the main story. The most of an FM conspiracy we'll see is them working with Euron or just an Arya storyline. @Megorova I believe the theory could be actual headcanon but will not be revealed in the main story. Perhaps in a spinoff.

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On 10/2/2021 at 6:30 PM, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

But the problem is, even if it is a plausible theory, I don't think Martin will incorporate it into the main story. The most of an FM conspiracy we'll see is them working with Euron or just an Arya storyline. @Megorova I believe the theory could be actual headcanon but will not be revealed in the main story. Perhaps in a spinoff.

There are certain indications that GRRM is going to reveal the Faceless Men Conspiracy in the main series, because he inserted multiple FM-connected elements all over previous ASOIAF's books.

Patchface is a Faceless Man. He killed Robert Baratheon's parents and all those other people that were with them on that ship. Could be that Patchface also infected Shireen with greyscale, and over multiple years was adding something into Stannis' food and drink, which made Stannis nearly impotent. That's why him and his wife had no more children besides Shireen. And then Melisandre used her own tricks to cure Stannis and to isolate him from Patchface's interventions, and had with him shadow-babies. And that's why Mel is afraid/weary of Patchface - probably she suspects who he really is.

And he is still there in the plot, near Stannis' family, because he is going to do something. Stannis and Shireen are partially dragonseeds by blood, so they are also potentially on a death list made by the FM.

Noho Dimitris - an envoy of the Iron Bank, came to King's Landing not to demand from Cersei to return what Robert owned to the Iron Bank, but to kill Tommen, as a punishment to Lannisters-Baratheons for not paying anything to the Iron Bank since Robert's death. And the debt they are going to re-set to Stannis. And in case if Stannis will refuse to pay, they will kill Shireen and maybe Stannis too (that's why Patchface is there).

There's also Syrio Forel / Jaqen H'ghar / Alchemist / fakePate, who is now at the Citadel. He's there because he has some sort of agenda, he's on a mission. So whatever he is doing, also will be revealed in the main series.

Also Dany's dragons hatched partially thanks to the current Sealord of Braavos. The Sealord is also the Head of the Iron Bank and the leader of the Faceless Men, he's Arya's Kindly Man. Willem Darry, who was raising Dany and Viserys in the house with the red door in Braavos, was also a Faceless Man. And he didn't died when Dany turned 5 years old, he was either reasigned to a different mission or was chosen to become the Sealord. In which case the current Sealord is the same man who raised Dany. Also he gave three dragon eggs that he had inherited from his predecessors (those three eggs that Elissa Farman stole from the Targaryens) to mummer-dwarfs - Hop-Bean, Oppo, and Tyrion's Penny. Those three grand gifts, that Penny told Tyrion about in ADWD - the gifts that the Sealord gave to them for their performance, they were dragon eggs. Same eggs that Illyrio Mopatis gave to Dany as her wedding gift. Varys in the past was a mummer, same as Hop-Bean, so Hop-Bean and Illyrio knew each other thru Varys. And Illyrio knew that the Sealord had three dragon eggs (because Illyrio was born at Braavos, and one of his parents was the Sealord's courtier), that's why he sent those mummer-dwarfs to the Sealord, to steal the eggs (it's a parallel to the events depicted in The Mystery Knight novel). Also Illyrio's wife Serra died because of the Faceless Men - the ship that brought Grey Plague to Pentos, was a ship from Braavos. The Faceless Men intentionally caused that epidemic, all to kill Serra.

Thus Serra's death, Illyrio's childhood at the Sealord's court, Dany's first five years spent at Braavos, Dany's dragon eggs - all that are also "bricks" of the foundation that GRRM has build in the previous five books for the later reveal about the Faceless Men secretly playing significant role in the plot of ASOIAF.

Also, Meryn Trant is a Faceless Man, that's why he let Syrio Forel/Jaqen to escape. Read carefully thru the scene where Meryn and five guards came to seize Arya - Meryn and Syrio only pretended that they are going to kill each other, until Arya run away from there. Meryn came to that room with his visor up and his face visible and stopped on the treshhold. That was the warning to Syrio. And while he was standing on the treshhold, he blocked the entry for the other five guards, and Syrio had a time to think what to do. Then Meryn, who was wearing fullbody-armor, let the other five guards to come in and to attack Syrio, because he knew that Syrio will be able to kill all of them, because as an FM he is that much better fighter than any of those 5. And only after those 5 were either dead or unconsciousness, only then Merin also came after Syrio. Though read carefully thru their fight - Meryn was wearing fullbody-armor, thus if he really wanted to kill/wound/or defeat Syrio, if they weren't just pretending for the sake of tricking Arya and making her to run, then all Meryn would have had to do is to put his visor down and without even blocking any of Syrio's attacks, he would have just sliced at Syrio with his sword from above. There was similar fight in ADWD between Barristan Selmy and one of Hizdahr's bodyguards. Barristan was wearing fullbody-armor, and he didn't even bothered with parring or blocking majority of his opponents attacks. Read thru both of those scenes - Syrio's play-pretend fight with Meryn, and Barristan fight with the pit-fighter. By comparing those two fights, in both of which one of the combatants was wearing fullbody-armor, it becomes clear that Meryn and Syrio were faking their fight. And when Arya run away, Syrio became Jaqen. And then Jaqen tricked Arya into going to Braavos. Going there wasn't actually her own idea, she was lured there.

The current Sealord is a cat-skinchanger, same as Arya, they are both descendants of Johanna Swann. The founder of House Swann (possibly) was a son of Azor Ahai and his fifth wife - tiger-woman, the widow of the Bloodstone Emperor who was Azor's uncle. So after his uncle's death Azor had to marry with his widow. That tiger-woman was not from some other race, she was merely a cat-skinchanger. Maybe.

Same as Bloodraven has the Weirwood-Network, the current Sealord has a Cat-Spy-Network. Both the Red Keep and Braavos are full of cats, and they are the Sealord's vessells, which he is using for spying. That Cat-Network is one of the greatest assets that the Faceless Men have, and thus they wouldn't want to loose it. Though the current Sealord is old, ill and dying. That's why one of the reasons why he sent Syrio to the 7K, was to find there someone who will be able to replace him as an operator of the Cat-Network. And they found Arya. They were searching thru Johanna Swann's descendants, and found out that Johanna's grandson - Aegon IV - had a daughter - Mya Rivers - one of whose daughters - Melantha Blackwood, married with a Stark (she was Ned's great-grandmother). And then they (the FM) found out that Ned Stark's children, while they were at Winterfell, were keeping direwolfs and had close relatioships with them. So based on that they suspected that the Stark-children could be carriers of the skinchanging-genes, same as the current Sealord, who is also one of Johanna Swann's descendants thru Aegon IV, like Arya. Thus, by sending Syrio to Arya, and using one of his vessels - Balerion the cat - the Sealord got confirmation that Arya does have an affinity to skinchanging, and thus she could be tought by the Sealord to become his replacement. 

Also thru Balerion the cat in ADWD's Epilogue the Sealord was spying after Tommen. Because Tommen is the next target of the Faceless Men, and thus Balerion was doing reconnaissance. Based on the information that he found out about Tommen, the Sealord/Balerion and Noho Dimitris will cause an "accident" during which the cat will lure Tommen to the window and then Noho Dimitris will push him out. Noho will be able to get into the Red Keep, because he will be using one of his other faces - Mandon Moore's - one of the Kingsguards, who is supposedly dead, but actually isn't (or rather he was always dead, because Mandon Moore was just a face-mask used by a Faceless Man who was playing a role of a Kingsguard, same as Meryn Trant <- that's also not that guy's real name nor his actual face).

That's all very convoluted and thus hard to believe, though you'll see that I was right, when Tommen will die from falling out of the window, and Balerion the cat will be involved in his death.

All those elements connected to Braavos - Patchface, Tycho Nestoris, Noho Dimitris, Balerion the cat, Mandon Moore, Meryn Trant, Syrio/Jaqen, Dany's dragon eggs, Penny, Illyrio's origin, Serra's death - all that combined together is the premise based on which GRRM will make his reveal about the Faceless Men Conspiracy. In ASOIAF directly, not in a side-book.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I know Daenerys is the recent successful attempt at dragon hatching and all other attempts seem like failure, but I believe  she knew she was born to ride a dragon because her egg hatched. Other siblings of Daena doesn't seem like people that can hatch their eggs, Daeron saw himself as a dragon, Baelor and Rhaena was tied to the faith, and I am sure we have no indication that Eleana's egg hatched, which leaves Daena, Targaryen to the bone, hatching her egg. 

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4 hours ago, asongofheresy said:

I know Daenerys is the recent successful attempt at dragon hatching and all other attempts seem like failure, but I believe  she knew she was born to ride a dragon because her egg hatched. Other siblings of Daena doesn't seem like people that can hatch their eggs, Daeron saw himself as a dragon, Baelor and Rhaena was tied to the faith, and I am sure we have no indication that Eleana's egg hatched, which leaves Daena, Targaryen to the bone, hatching her egg. 

Even if daena's egg hatched the dragon didn't live long. 

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6 hours ago, asongofheresy said:

I know Daenerys is the recent successful attempt at dragon hatching and all other attempts seem like failure, but I believe  she knew she was born to ride a dragon because her egg hatched. Other siblings of Daena doesn't seem like people that can hatch their eggs, Daeron saw himself as a dragon, Baelor and Rhaena was tied to the faith, and I am sure we have no indication that Eleana's egg hatched, which leaves Daena, Targaryen to the bone, hatching her egg. 

I think we would definitely know if Daena had an egg that hatched. 

Not that she was born to ride a dragon. That's basically absurd. Aenys 'the Weak' was a frail and unhealthy man for his entire life, yet he bonded with his dragon unlike many others. 

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8 hours ago, asongofheresy said:

I know Daenerys is the recent successful attempt at dragon hatching and all other attempts seem like failure, but I believe  she knew she was born to ride a dragon because her egg hatched. Other siblings of Daena doesn't seem like people that can hatch their eggs, Daeron saw himself as a dragon, Baelor and Rhaena was tied to the faith, and I am sure we have no indication that Eleana's egg hatched, which leaves Daena, Targaryen to the bone, hatching her egg. 

Knew?  She has had a lot of dreams and visions before hatching her eggs.  She interpreted those dreams and visions because she's a smart girl.  Her conclusions led her to make the attempt. Night was closing in on her future. She was facing a lifetime of living with the Dothraki's old women in the darkness of the cave.  The chance to reclaim her rightful inheritance and rescue the people of Westeros from the ruling pigs and their dogs was slipping away.  She was desperate.  She will later learn that she is Azor Ahai.  The dragons already know.  

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On 10/2/2021 at 8:30 AM, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

Megorova's theories are somewhat believable. Faceless Men Death Cult is easy to believe especially since we know Braavos's enmity toward Dragonlords and the Freehold. I think there is even a theory that the FM killed too many Valyrian firemages and caused the Doom of Valyria.

IMO, it's kind of plausible only when they have dragons. Then there's a point to limiting the amount of dragonriders. However, the part I dismiss entirely is that they keep killing Targaryens after the death of the dragons. 

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1 hour ago, Dr. Eldon Tyrell said:

Knew?  She has had a lot of dreams and visions before hatching her eggs.  She interpreted those dreams and visions because she's a smart girl.  Her conclusions led her to make the attempt. Night was closing in on her future. She was facing a lifetime of living with the Dothraki's old women in the darkness of the cave.  The chance to reclaim her rightful inheritance and rescue the people of Westeros from the ruling pigs and their dogs was slipping away.  She was desperate.  She will later learn that she is Azor Ahai.  The dragons already know.  

I wasn't talking about Daenerys in that part, I believe Daena knew she was born to ride a dragon as she claimed because her egg hatched. 

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3 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I think we would definitely know if Daena had an egg that hatched. 

Not that she was born to ride a dragon. That's basically absurd. Aenys 'the Weak' was a frail and unhealthy man for his entire life, yet he bonded with his dragon unlike many others. 

Daena is described as Targaryen to the bone, wild, and defiant in nature, and its her who claims she was born to ride a dragon. As a contender to Iron Throne and mother of a rebel, maybe Daena hatching a dragon wasn't passed along as an information, especially if none other sibling or cousin hatched a dragon through her time. Still I think one of the last dragons was her hatchling. 

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15 hours ago, asongofheresy said:

Daena is described as Targaryen to the bone, wild, and defiant in nature, and its her who claims she was born to ride a dragon. As a contender to Iron Throne and mother of a rebel, maybe Daena hatching a dragon wasn't passed along as an information, especially if none other sibling or cousin hatched a dragon through her time. Still I think one of the last dragons was her hatchling. 

Yea, sure. Her mother was a Velaryon, who's closest relation to his father, Aegon III predated the Conquest. She wasn't born to ride a dragon any more than anyone else was just because she said so. Not to say we don't know Daeron I's opinion about dragons. He lived too less to have too much info about him. But this makes no sense anyway. Aegon the Conqueror was said to ride Balerion only as a duty, whereas his frail son Aenys bonded with his dragon like many and most people did not. Rhaenyra's bastards all claimed dragons, whereas Viserys II's egg never hatched, altough he was both fond of dragons and a man said to be really suitable to ride one, much more than his brother, who had a dragon nonetheless. 

If Daena managed to hatch a dragon, we would know. The Last Dragon is called the last one for a reason. People at court didn't claim that the Throne should pass to Daemon instead of Daeron just because Daemon's mother ever managed to make an egg hatch. It's not an info anyone could hold back entirely. 

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3 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Yea, sure. Her mother was a Velaryon, who's closest relation to his father, Aegon III predated the Conquest. She wasn't born to ride a dragon any more than anyone else was just because she said so. Not to say we don't know Daeron I's opinion about dragons. He lived too less to have too much info about him. But this makes no sense anyway. Aegon the Conqueror was said to ride Balerion only as a duty, whereas his frail son Aenys bonded with his dragon like many and most people did not. Rhaenyra's bastards all claimed dragons, whereas Viserys II's egg never hatched, altough he was both fond of dragons and a man said to be really suitable to ride one, much more than his brother, who had a dragon nonetheless. 

If Daena managed to hatch a dragon, we would know. The Last Dragon is called the last one for a reason. People at court didn't claim that the Throne should pass to Daemon instead of Daeron just because Daemon's mother ever managed to make an egg hatch. It's not an info anyone could hold back entirely. 

Daeron referred himself as a dragon, Aegon gave away his dragon egg, Rhaena was a septa, and Baelor was pious too, Aemon's knightly status and Naerys' fragile state doesn't make me think of them as dragon hatchers, and I don't recall Eleana's egg hatching, that leaves Daena as the most possible candidate among children of Aegon III and Viserys II. 

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