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Val has Dragon blood (theory)

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Posted (edited)
On 4/16/2021 at 7:13 PM, Egged said:

Her attitude makes me think she was among highborn people during her life. It's too weird otherwise that she acts so highborn-like, why would she? Why her?

She is the most beautiful of the wild women and has all men at her feet. From then on, it is not necessary to have noble origins to have such a haughty attitude.

Edited by Hug-hammer
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2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

She's beautiful, but probably not incredibly so. We get her description from Jon, who's half in love with her (and he thought Ygritte was beautiful, but conventionally speaking, she wasn't). The queen's men want her, but they're more interested in her child-bearing hips, and the lands and leadership that might go to her husband.

Jon notives Val's beauty, but he isn't in love with her. He never thinks about her when she isn't there, isn't obsessed with her, doesn't want to kiss her, etc. He is still mourning for Ygritte as Mel's messing with his head proved. When she used one of her powders on him she looked like Ygritte, the woman Jon still loved. She didn't look like Val.

And Ygritte wasn't beautiful, Jon even notices that. He just no longer noticed her flaws when he started having sex with her and his hormones took over. Theirs was a very physical relationship. They had nothing in common, no future to look forward to, and lived only for the moment. If Ygritte hadn't died their relationship would have ended quickly enough.

If I had to guess the chances are very high that a resurrected Jon will sleep with Mel. She will bring him back, and he will have to be grateful for that, whether he wants or not. And Mel already said that she wants his juices to make more shadow babies.

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I think Mel will pull a Beric, having lost Stannis and having needlessly burned Shireen she accepts she knew nothing and passes the torch over to Jon, and she dies.

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39 minutes ago, Egged said:

I think Mel will pull a Beric, having lost Stannis and having needlessly burned Shireen she accepts she knew nothing and passes the torch over to Jon, and she dies.

Stannis isn't dead, and Shireen won't burn before Jon is resurrected. And Melisandre is just a new POV character. She will stay with us for the remainder of the series.

There also won't be a need for Melisandre to 'pull a Beric'. Thoros could summon the magical resurrection flame. Mel should be able to do that, too, even if she herself was resurrected in this manner. Which I actually doubt. She was imbued with fire as part of some ritual, but Beric and Catelyn are much different from Melisandre. She is really, really hot. Beric just had blood which could ignite swords.

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56 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Stannis isn't dead, and Shireen won't burn before Jon is resurrected. And Melisandre is just a new POV character. She will stay with us for the remainder of the series.

There also won't be a need for Melisandre to 'pull a Beric'. Thoros could summon the magical resurrection flame. Mel should be able to do that, too, even if she herself was resurrected in this manner. Which I actually doubt. She was imbued with fire as part of some ritual, but Beric and Catelyn are much different from Melisandre. She is really, really hot. Beric just had blood which could ignite swords.

I think she dies because she would be insufferable to the readers by then. She screwed up too many times, while acting all-knowing. Her POV chapters revealed she knows nothing, that she has been raised by fanatics and is a victim of it. She's about to commit the greatest of offenses all because she was so sure about what she didn't understand. Time to move on, either by dying or going far away.

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1 minute ago, Egged said:

I think she dies because she would be insufferable to the readers by then. She screwed up too many times, while acting all-knowing. Her POV chapters revealed she knows nothing, that she has been raised by fanatics and is a victim of it. She's about to commit the greatest of offenses all because she was so sure about what she didn't understand. Time to move on, either by dying or going far away.

Her killing Shireen may be a low point in her career, but so what? If she still helps in the fight against the Others she could kill a hundred children and it would make little difference.

And Mel certainly knows a lot of stuff. She is just wrong on a couple of things. But she still knows stuff ... and has the means to figure even more things out.

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8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Her killing Shireen may be a low point in her career, but so what? If she still helps in the fight against the Others she could kill a hundred children and it would make little difference.

And Mel certainly knows a lot of stuff. She is just wrong on a couple of things. But she still knows stuff ... and has the means to figure even more things out.

I just think she will give up on it all, not wanting to go on, and give Jon that kiss, hoping that maybe this is what she is meant to do, but not wanting to find out if she was wrong again.

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1 minute ago, Egged said:

I just think she will give up on it all, not wanting to go on, and give Jon that kiss, hoping that maybe this is what she is meant to do, but not wanting to find out if she was wrong again.

Sounds like something Melisandre would never do, especially since she doesn't really think she is wrong so far. She has her hero. Stannis. It is going to take her a lot of time to figure out she is wrong about him.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sounds like something Melisandre would never do, especially since she doesn't really think she is wrong so far. She has her hero. Stannis. It is going to take her a lot of time to figure out she is wrong about him.

It’s exactly why we have character arcs.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Stannis isn't dead, and Shireen won't burn before Jon is resurrected. And Melisandre is just a new POV character. She will stay with us for the remainder of the series.

I agree that Shireen will not die before Jon comes back. I actually see the two things as potentially one and the same: Shireen is "stone" and Jon is a "dragon". To burn Shireen is to wake a dragon from stone.

As far as I can tell, in the books Melisandre has no clue that she might be able to bring people back from the dead like Thoros did and maybe she can't. It is not like in the show where she had reason to think it might work. We also know that Melisandre can't see what is going on with Stannis. All she sees is Snow. So unless the PL was some kind of signal from Stannis organized with Melisandre in advance, Melisandre doesn't actually know if Stannis is alive. All she knows is that he is (she thinks) Azor Ahai so he CAN'T die. And when Melisandre wants the Lord of Light to do something for her cause, she burns someone, preferably someone with King's blood.

Even if it is not actually Mel who burns Shireen, she has turned queen's men and some Watch members into R'hllor fanatics who like to watch people burn. Maybe they are the ones who will burn Shireen to try to save their own skins - it would please the mutineers because it rejects Stannis, it would please many wildlings because it would feel like revenge on Stannis and because they are afraid of her greyscale. But either way it is King's blood fire magic with the power to bring someone back to life. 

 

Back to Val though. There are many ways she could have some dragon blood. Certainly seems possible. But if so does it have any bearing on events? Surely with her role established as a wildling "princess" and therefore a prize to be won by several characters, the only way her dragon blood could factor in to the story is if it has magical consequences. If she burns, that is one way for there to be magical consequences. Or, if she is killed with ice magic maybe the effect is somewhat different for people with dragon blood and Val will be the way we find out that is the case. I don't see how else it would matter.

Edited by Hippocras

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Being beautiful and blonde does not mean that you have Valyrian blood.

Andalusians are known for their blond hair. One thing that has always puzzled me is that blonde hair tends to be more prevalent in areas with little sunlight.

But the Valyrians are originally from the "Lands of the Long Summer" but yet they are pale like albinos. They would normally be dark-skinned like the summer islanders.

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13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon notives Val's beauty, but he isn't in love with her. He never thinks about her when she isn't there, isn't obsessed with her, doesn't want to kiss her, etc. He is still mourning for Ygritte as Mel's messing with his head proved. When she used one of her powders on him she looked like Ygritte, the woman Jon still loved. She didn't look like Val.

I'm agnostic about all that. Jon is an honourable Stark, and wants duty first, love second. He'll try to repress his feelings.

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And Ygritte wasn't beautiful, Jon even notices that. He just no longer noticed her flaws when he started having sex with her and his hormones took over. Theirs was a very physical relationship. They had nothing in common, no future to look forward to, and lived only for the moment. If Ygritte hadn't died their relationship would have ended quickly enough.

It did! He wasn't wilding enough for her, and she was too wildling for him - and then maybe she tried to kill him. But it was love at the time.

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If I had to guess the chances are very high that a resurrected Jon will sleep with Mel. She will bring him back, and he will have to be grateful for that, whether he wants or not. And Mel already said that she wants his juices to make more shadow babies.

I can't think why Mel goes for these cold, honourable men - but she does.

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From the information so far, Dany is a lot more beautiful than Val (we're talking conventional beauty this time). Men are happy to describe Val as beautiful, but they don't try and say she's the most beautiful woman in the world. Not only that, but Dany's reputation has spread across continents, reaching the Victarion and the Ironborn.

So there's a hierarchy of beauty, with Dany at the top. Cersei, especially young Cersei, qualifies too - we know this because love doesn't come into it - men who hate her feel her beauty (Ned, Jon, Tyrion); even old uncle Kevan gets all poetical about how staggeringly lovely she was.

I think the shiny-ness of Dany and Cersei is an essential part of this kind of beauty that GRRM is using here - it's very fantasy, very fairy-taie - hair like silver and gold, and eyes like gemstones. Val doesn't have that - she's very matte, very mid-toned. Although - it's very striking how much brighter she looks after coming back with Tormund. I connect that with the build-up of magic at this time as expressed by the light of the glass candles: turning yellows to gold, and reds to flame etc.

Anyway. I don't think Val is going to last any longer than Ygritte. What I think we're seeing here is Aegon I reborn, meeting his symbolic sisters. Val and Ygritte can do the sexy stuff, and his real sister-cousins can join with him to win whatever wars need winning. Problem solved.

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14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If I had to guess the chances are very high that a resurrected Jon will sleep with Mel. She will bring him back, and he will have to be grateful for that, whether he wants or not. And Mel already said that she wants his juices to make more shadow babies.

I doubt this will happen. She wants that, yes. But don't you remember how Stannis got sick after doing that? To make shadow babies is effectively to steal the life force from someone. Basically Stannis lost his future and legacy (which shadows are a metaphor for in these books) when he "gave" them to Mel for shadow baby purposes.

Mel wants Jon because she senses there is power in him even if she doesn't understand why, but there is no reason at all for Jon to do this.

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8 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

I doubt this will happen. She wants that, yes. But don't you remember how Stannis got sick after doing that? To make shadow babies is effectively to steal the life force from someone. Basically Stannis lost his future and legacy (which shadows are a metaphor for in these books) when he "gave" them to Mel for shadow baby purposes.

Mel wants Jon because she senses there is power in him even if she doesn't understand why, but there is no reason at all for Jon to do this.

She repels him, yes. On the other hand Stannis and Mel run parallel to Night's King/Corpse Queen in a number of ways (mainly the sexy soul-stealing) - so if Jon falls into the Stannis identity (mainly AA, but also a 'king' at the Wall) - there could be something there.

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I always assumed that the deciding factor was the White Walkers ...

But your motivation would imply an interesting scenario, that the threat beyond the Wall might not be what it seems.

I would suggest that the reason Mance met Val and Dalla was to tell them about the death of their brother:

Quote

"You weren't s'posed to be here," he muttered sourly. "No one was s'posed to be here."
He was a small, dirty man in filthy brown clothing, and he stank of horses. Catelyn knew all the men who worked in their stables, and he was none of them. He was gaunt, with limp blond hair and pale eyes deep-sunk in a bony face, and there was a dagger in his hand.
He must have heard her. "It's a mercy," he said. "He's dead already."

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn III

The catspaw who tried to kill Bran while the Winterfell Library burned was the paw of a Shadow Cat, not a Lion!

Just like Val thinks Shireen should be killed the catspaw thinks killing Bran would be mercy.

Mance was there for Roberts feast, and afterwards he meets Dalla and Val on his way to digging in the Frost Fangs, looking for something. Could it have to do with something recovered from the Winterfell Library?

Edited by Mourning Star

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

I would suggest that the reason Mance met Val and Dalla was to tell them about the death of their brother:

The catspaw who tried to kill Bran while the Winterfell Library burned was the paw of a Shadow Cat, not a Lion!

Just like Val thinks Shireen should be killed the catspaw thinks killing Bran would be mercy.

Mance was there for Roberts feast, and afterwards he meets Dalla and Val on his way to digging in the Frost Fangs, looking for something. Could it have to do with something recovered from the Winterfell Library?

I don't know about the assassin being related to Val and Dalla, that's a bit of a stretch.  But Mance being the one who paid the catspaw to kill Bran,  well that thought's crossed my mind as well.  It might not be a coincidence that we learn that Mance only took his lute and a bag of silver with him to Winterfell.  Perhaps the same bag of silver that was found with the catspaw's possessions in the stable.

And the reason would be fairly simple, to turn the Stag against the Direwolf.  To foment dispute, to sow the dragon's teeth.  Mance takes the knife, a knife of valyrian steel, from Robert's possession to try and cast the blame on the royal family.  If Mance can start conflict between Winterfell and the Iron Throne, that would certainly deflect attention away from him and his wildlings as they try and cross the Wall.

And then Littlefinger goes and coopts the plot by laying the blame of the knife on Tyrion, as he attempts to pit the direwolf against the Lion.  Sowing his own dragon's teeth.

It's probably no coincidence that GRRM made the hilt of the dagger from dragon's bone.  He's heavily playing up the theme from the Cadmus mythology.

 

Edited by Frey family reunion

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10 hours ago, Egged said:

It’s exactly why we have character arcs.

Mel's arc has barely started. Most readers still don't understand her character.

7 hours ago, Hippocras said:

I agree that Shireen will not die before Jon comes back. I actually see the two things as potentially one and the same: Shireen is "stone" and Jon is a "dragon". To burn Shireen is to wake a dragon from stone.

As far as I can tell, in the books Melisandre has no clue that she might be able to bring people back from the dead like Thoros did and maybe she can't. It is not like in the show where she had reason to think it might work. We also know that Melisandre can't see what is going on with Stannis. All she sees is Snow. So unless the PL was some kind of signal from Stannis organized with Melisandre in advance, Melisandre doesn't actually know if Stannis is alive. All she knows is that he is (she thinks) Azor Ahai so he CAN'T die. And when Melisandre wants the Lord of Light to do something for her cause, she burns someone, preferably someone with King's blood.

Even if it is not actually Mel who burns Shireen, she has turned queen's men and some Watch members into R'hllor fanatics who like to watch people burn. Maybe they are the ones who will burn Shireen to try to save their own skins - it would please the mutineers because it rejects Stannis, it would please many wildlings because it would feel like revenge on Stannis and because they are afraid of her greyscale. But either way it is King's blood fire magic with the power to bring someone back to life. 

That is completely unlikely since the entire point of the 'let's burn a child' is that Stannis does it. He considered it back with Edric Storm, his nephew, and he will eventually sign off on the burning of his only child. It might even be his idea, not so much Melisandre.

The idea that right now, with Stannis allegedly dead, anyone at the Wall would even consider burning his heir and successor is pretty much ridiculous. Selyse and Axell would never permit that, not would anyone in Stannis' camp ever consider this.

Also, if Mel wanted to burn folks with 'king's blood' while Stannis is away she would first turn to Gerrick Kingsblood, his three daughters, Mance's son (who she assumes is his son and not Gilly's), Axell Florent, even Selyse (who are descendants of the Gardener kings of old) before she would turn to Stannis' only child.

Shireen's sacrifice will be Stannis trying to do what Azor Ahai supposedly did when he killed Nissa Nissa to create his Lightbringer. An ultimate sacrifice to be able to do what he thinks he must.

And nobody is going to want to bring back Jon Snow of all people, because nobody thinks he is all that significant to anything. Even a disfigured princess is worth infinitely more than Jon.

Thoros couldn't bring people from the dead ... it just happened when he administered R'hllor's funeral rites to dead Beric. And something like that Melisandre might to with Jon's body, too.

Not to mention that Jon won't be *really dead* like Beric or Cat considering his spirit will live on in Ghost. They just have to resurrect his body and reunite it with the spirit. They do not have to call back his soul from beyond or restore it somehow like it was done with Beric and Cat. These two are more like Frankenstein monsters (from the movies, not the novel) in the sense that they definitely less human than normal human beings. But Jon will never be dead in that sense, although he might be twisted in another way if he spends too much time in Ghost. He would take on more and more wolfish characteristics then, like Varamyr is going to lose himself more and more in One Eye.

7 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Back to Val though. There are many ways she could have some dragon blood. Certainly seems possible. But if so does it have any bearing on events? Surely with her role established as a wildling "princess" and therefore a prize to be won by several characters, the only way her dragon blood could factor in to the story is if it has magical consequences. If she burns, that is one way for there to be magical consequences. Or, if she is killed with ice magic maybe the effect is somewhat different for people with dragon blood and Val will be the way we find out that is the case. I don't see how else it would matter.

Oh, I don't think there is any bearing to this idea. I just wanted to point out that it would certainly be possible if one wanted to think along those line. But as a I said, Aemon would be much more likely as a grandfather for Val than Bloodraven.

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2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I'm agnostic about all that. Jon is an honourable Stark, and wants duty first, love second. He'll try to repress his feelings.

Of course, he is also done with that kind of thing for the time being because who he is. He cannot have a lover as the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. But he also still mourns for Ygritte, and if he had feelings for any other woman at this point he would have seen her when Mel messed with his head, not Ygritte. This was no accident on his part, Mel used one of his powders on him.

It's very likely that this was also part of the seduction game she played with Stannis. Made him see her like whatever it was he loved most. Perhaps a girl from his childhood, that sort of thing.

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

It did! He wasn't wilding enough for her, and she was too wildling for him - and then maybe she tried to kill him. But it was love at the time.

It was the kind of love you have when you are fifteen - and when you are year older you look at that person and you don't even remember what you ever saw in them.

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I can't think why Mel goes for these cold, honourable men - but she does.

She sees something in Jon, realizes he has a role to play, and she wants to help him and ensure he does what he is destined to do in the great war.

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

From the information so far, Dany is a lot more beautiful than Val (we're talking conventional beauty this time). Men are happy to describe Val as beautiful, but they don't try and say she's the most beautiful woman in the world. Not only that, but Dany's reputation has spread across continents, reaching the Victarion and the Ironborn.

So there's a hierarchy of beauty, with Dany at the top. Cersei, especially young Cersei, qualifies too - we know this because love doesn't come into it - men who hate her feel her beauty (Ned, Jon, Tyrion); even old uncle Kevan gets all poetical about how staggeringly lovely she was.

I think the shiny-ness of Dany and Cersei is an essential part of this kind of beauty that GRRM is using here - it's very fantasy, very fairy-taie - hair like silver and gold, and eyes like gemstones. Val doesn't have that - she's very matte, very mid-toned. Although - it's very striking how much brighter she looks after coming back with Tormund. I connect that with the build-up of magic at this time as expressed by the light of the glass candles: turning yellows to gold, and reds to flame etc.

Anyway. I don't think Val is going to last any longer than Ygritte. What I think we're seeing here is Aegon I reborn, meeting his symbolic sisters. Val and Ygritte can do the sexy stuff, and his real sister-cousins can join with him to win whatever wars need winning. Problem solved.

Yeah, Val is at best Jon's Daario ... like Drogo was Dany's Ygritte. They won't last.

2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

I doubt this will happen. She wants that, yes. But don't you remember how Stannis got sick after doing that? To make shadow babies is effectively to steal the life force from someone. Basically Stannis lost his future and legacy (which shadows are a metaphor for in these books) when he "gave" them to Mel for shadow baby purposes.

If Melisandre wants to have sex with Jon, she will have sex with Jon. She won't give him a choice. Ygritte didn't give a choice, either. And Melisandre is going to work great magics again. That's why she told us that her spells will be much more powerful in the shadow of the Wall. Both her glamors and her shadow assassins.

I've no idea what she would create a shadow for, but it could be to resolve the Marsh situation, to target the Weeper later, to do away with the Boltons once and for all if any of them escaped Winterfell.

They could, perhaps, even serve as spies beyond the Wall if the Wall-created shadows were to last longer. The person from whose lifeforce they are created is connected to the shadow, sees what they see, so they could send one out to spy on the Others.

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19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that right now, with Stannis allegedly dead, anyone at the Wall would even consider burning his heir and successor is pretty much ridiculous. Selyse and Axell would never permit that, not would anyone in Stannis' camp ever consider this.

Also, if Mel wanted to burn folks with 'king's blood' while Stannis is away she would first turn to Gerrick Kingsblood, his three daughters, Mance's son (who she assumes is his son and not Gilly's), Axell Florent, even Selyse (who are descendants of the Gardener kings of old) before she would turn to Stannis' only child.

I agree with your second paragraph, but for Mel, perhaps, once you start burning kingsblood it may be hard to stop.

As for your first paragraph, it wouldn't suprise me that Mel may be able to convince Selyse to burn her daughter, for the "greater good".  After all Selyse has proven more susceptible to Melisandre's religion than even Stannis.  And Mel is probably going to be chomping at the bit for an excuse to sacrifice Shireen, since the girl has the same "Kingsblood" as her cousin Edric.  Targaryen - Baratheon - and perhaps Gardner.

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