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Leonardo

Would Renly have killed Shireen?

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If everything went awry for him and Stannis had died outside of Storm's End instead of Renly, I was curious what would have happened to the rest of his household. I assume all would be confirmed in titles in exchange for homage, but more importantly, would Shireen be allowed to live? She would, by some estimations, have the better claim to the throne, but historically would have been denied. Based on Renly's exchange with Catelyn I'm inclined to say he'd allow it; Renly didn't want to rock boats, he wanted a smooth transition, even if it meant Robb calling himself king(!!!) as long as he bent the knee. This probably would cause trouble down the line but Renly was so here and now...

 

I was curious about opinions and arguments. Does Shireen survive in the reign of King Renly I? Does Selyse survive or is the supplantation a reward for the Tyrells or other Reach houses?

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Leonardo said:

If everything went awry for him and Stannis had died outside of Storm's End instead of Renly, I was curious what would have happened to the rest of his household. I assume all would be confirmed in titles in exchange for homage, but more importantly, would Shireen be allowed to live? She would, by some estimations, have the better claim to the throne, but historically would have been denied. Based on Renly's exchange with Catelyn I'm inclined to say he'd allow it; Renly didn't want to rock boats, he wanted a smooth transition, even if it meant Robb calling himself king(!!!) as long as he bent the knee. This probably would cause trouble down the line but Renly was so here and now...

 

I was curious about opinions and arguments. Does Shireen survive in the reign of King Renly I? Does Selyse survive or is the supplantation a reward for the Tyrells or other Reach houses?

Selyse joins the silent sisters (presumably after they cut her tongue out) and Shireen is sent to Oldtown. Either that or she’s banished to Old Valyria because of her greyscale.

But I wouldn’t be surprised if Renly had them killed. He’s willing to kill his brother and he was willing to possibly kill Robert’s “children.” Renly isn’t some paragon, despite what Brienne thinks.

Edited by Canon Claude

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Renly didn't bother with Stannis being alive and his older brother until Stannis actively moved against him. Renly wouldn't give his disfigured, sickly niece a second thought. Not even a first, to be honest.

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If Shireen was a somewhat adult, healthy male. Maybe.

But Shireen's a child, a girl in a sexist society and very sickly in an ableist society. Shireen's simply not a threat, no one in his sane mind would support her over Renly.

 

 

 

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Renly would follow in Robert's footsteps and do what he believes will secure his reign.  Selyse and Shireen could be sent to exile or guested with a trusted ally for the remainder of their lives.  He will only murder them if Selyse proved intractable.  

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On 4/17/2021 at 4:30 AM, Leonardo said:

If everything went awry for him and Stannis had died outside of Storm's End instead of Renly, I was curious what would have happened to the rest of his household. I assume all would be confirmed in titles in exchange for homage, but more importantly, would Shireen be allowed to live? She would, by some estimations, have the better claim to the throne, but historically would have been denied. Based on Renly's exchange with Catelyn I'm inclined to say he'd allow it; Renly didn't want to rock boats, he wanted a smooth transition, even if it meant Robb calling himself king(!!!) as long as he bent the knee. This probably would cause trouble down the line but Renly was so here and now...

 

I was curious about opinions and arguments. Does Shireen survive in the reign of King Renly I? Does Selyse survive or is the supplantation a reward for the Tyrells or other Reach houses?

She would have become his ward and he would have married her to whomever suited his needs.

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Posted (edited)

I agree with Shireen becoming Renly's ward. I disagree with him marrying her off. Any offspring she produced would have a legitimate claim to his titles, best avoid that. He'd keep her locked in a tower in Storm's End, out of sight, out of mind. 

Edited by Lord Lannister

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

I agree with Shireen becoming Renly's ward. I disagree with him marrying her off. Any offspring she produced would have a legitimate claim to his titles, best avoid that.

There would be one obvious option to marry Shireen off, eventually. A future son of Renly and Margaery.

But that would leave the pick of Shireen or Myrcella.

Edited by Jaak

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6 minutes ago, Jaak said:

There would be one obvious option to marry Shireen off, eventually. A future son of Renly and Margaery.

But that would leave the pick of Shireen or Myrcella.

Renly would be much better off marrying his child to a powerful vassal, stopping Shireen and Myrcella having children with a claim is important but gaining legitimacy by having his own children marry one of them is negligible when he's already usurped several claimants that are obviously ahead of him. Renly's gonna be called a usurper his entire reign, his children too. Marrying off Shireen to a son won't change that but gaining more allies may stem the potential turbulence of his rule. 

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On 4/17/2021 at 9:14 AM, Canon Claude said:

Selyse joins the silent sisters (presumably after they cut her tongue out) and Shireen is sent to Oldtown. Either that or she’s banished to Old Valyria because of her greyscale.

 

That's show, ser. Valyria is a burnt wasteland in the books.

 

On 4/17/2021 at 1:30 AM, Leonardo said:

I was curious about opinions and arguments. Does Shireen survive in the reign of King Renly I? Does Selyse survive or is the supplantation a reward for the Tyrells or other Reach houses?

The worst solution Renly could've come up with, and is horrible, is killing Shireen. Luckily, Renly doesn't seem that sort of guy.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/21/2021 at 5:59 PM, Lion of the West said:

Renly may not kill Stannis's wife and daughter. But Renly's Tyrell friends may see things in a different light and arrange for two accidents.

 Well Tyrell name does remind of Sir James Tyrrell, the man who in Shakespeare's play organizes murders of of the Princes in the Tower under Richard III's orders.

Edited by Eltharion21

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Answers suggesting that Renly would take her as a ward and those alluding to Tyrell plots are what makes the most sense.

While I don’t doubt the Tyrells would be brutal enough to have her “taken care of” if needed or wanted, I think that Shireen has a significantly higher chance of living in this circumstances at hand. A girl with a facial deformity, no allies (at least not against Renly). Unless Renly had all daughters, she doesn’t stand much of a chance. Even then, she’d need firm allies.

Although playing devil’s advocate, I think her Florent blood is a bigger threat to her life than Baratheon.

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On 4/23/2021 at 7:45 PM, nyser1 said:

Answers suggesting that Renly would take her as a ward and those alluding to Tyrell plots are what makes the most sense.

While I don’t doubt the Tyrells would be brutal enough to have her “taken care of” if needed or wanted, I think that Shireen has a significantly higher chance of living in this circumstances at hand. A girl with a facial deformity, no allies (at least not against Renly). Unless Renly had all daughters, she doesn’t stand much of a chance. Even then, she’d need firm allies.

Although playing devil’s advocate, I think her Florent blood is a bigger threat to her life than Baratheon.

I think that you overestimate how much Shireen needs to be a threat. She does not need either friends or allies, only puppetmasters, to be a threat to the Tyrell. And a child with both Baratheon and Florent blood? As I see it its a dagger pointed straight at the heart of the Tyrells. Hence why I want them to get her gone and not leave loose ends behind.

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9 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

I think that you overestimate how much Shireen needs to be a threat. She does not need either friends or allies, only puppetmasters, to be a threat to the Tyrell. And a child with both Baratheon and Florent blood? As I see it its a dagger pointed straight at the heart of the Tyrells. Hence why I want them to get her gone and not leave loose ends behind.

While your points are fair and I do believe Westeros is dark and cruel standard wise, by this precedent- every generation would have seen the heir to the throne’s siblings murdered at his hands or that of their married family. 

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22 hours ago, nyser1 said:

While your points are fair and I do believe Westeros is dark and cruel standard wise, by this precedent- every generation would have seen the heir to the throne’s siblings murdered at his hands or that of their married family. 

Everything you write is true yet again the the Tyrells are masters of PR and scheming. Remember they did get Joffrey killed and married Margaery to Tommen and keep their new power at court. So far no harm has come to attach themselves for it.

I don't doubt for a second the Tyrells couldn't, and wouldn't, pull it off in way that makes somone else look responsible while they express their shock and grief at the horrible event.

And as a disclaimer, I do not personally condone, support or in any way accept such actions RL or morally. Just in case people get ideas about it.

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31 minutes ago, Lion of the West said:

Everything you write is true yet again the the Tyrells are masters of PR and scheming. Remember they did get Joffrey killed and married Margaery to Tommen and keep their new power at court. So far no harm has come to attach themselves for it.

I don't doubt for a second the Tyrells couldn't, and wouldn't, pull it off in way that makes somone else look responsible while they express their shock and grief at the horrible event.

And as a disclaimer, I do not personally condone, support or in any way accept such actions RL or morally. Just in case people get ideas about it.

Thanks for your well articulated and logical response. 
 

Sad that you feel that you need to have to disclaim that in a chat about fiction, I never suspected such :).

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On 4/25/2021 at 4:48 AM, Lion of the West said:

I think that you overestimate how much Shireen needs to be a threat. She does not need either friends or allies, only puppetmasters, to be a threat to the Tyrell. And a child with both Baratheon and Florent blood? As I see it its a dagger pointed straight at the heart of the Tyrells.

If any 'puppetmaster' wanted to push a claim to threaten the Tyrell's claim to Highgarden, he would never choose Shireen. He'd certainly look from a male. From one of the families that also have blood ties with the Gardener kings of old but that are more prestigious and powerful than the Florents (such as Rowan or Oakheart). And if a Florent had to be chosen, it wouldn't be a daughter of a daughter of a third-born son.

Shireen is an absolute no one when discussing the rights to Brightwater Keep. She's even less, in relation to Highgarden. And that's even before taking into account the fact that she's a scarred little girl seen as a monstrosity by many.

The Tyrells wouldn't consider her as a threat at all.

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