Leonardo Posted April 17, 2021 Share Posted April 17, 2021 If everything went awry for him and Stannis had died outside of Storm's End instead of Renly, I was curious what would have happened to the rest of his household. I assume all would be confirmed in titles in exchange for homage, but more importantly, would Shireen be allowed to live? She would, by some estimations, have the better claim to the throne, but historically would have been denied. Based on Renly's exchange with Catelyn I'm inclined to say he'd allow it; Renly didn't want to rock boats, he wanted a smooth transition, even if it meant Robb calling himself king(!!!) as long as he bent the knee. This probably would cause trouble down the line but Renly was so here and now... I was curious about opinions and arguments. Does Shireen survive in the reign of King Renly I? Does Selyse survive or is the supplantation a reward for the Tyrells or other Reach houses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canon Claude Posted April 17, 2021 Share Posted April 17, 2021 7 hours ago, Leonardo said: If everything went awry for him and Stannis had died outside of Storm's End instead of Renly, I was curious what would have happened to the rest of his household. I assume all would be confirmed in titles in exchange for homage, but more importantly, would Shireen be allowed to live? She would, by some estimations, have the better claim to the throne, but historically would have been denied. Based on Renly's exchange with Catelyn I'm inclined to say he'd allow it; Renly didn't want to rock boats, he wanted a smooth transition, even if it meant Robb calling himself king(!!!) as long as he bent the knee. This probably would cause trouble down the line but Renly was so here and now... I was curious about opinions and arguments. Does Shireen survive in the reign of King Renly I? Does Selyse survive or is the supplantation a reward for the Tyrells or other Reach houses? Selyse joins the silent sisters (presumably after they cut her tongue out) and Shireen is sent to Oldtown. Either that or she’s banished to Old Valyria because of her greyscale. But I wouldn’t be surprised if Renly had them killed. He’s willing to kill his brother and he was willing to possibly kill Robert’s “children.” Renly isn’t some paragon, despite what Brienne thinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 17, 2021 Share Posted April 17, 2021 Renly didn't bother with Stannis being alive and his older brother until Stannis actively moved against him. Renly wouldn't give his disfigured, sickly niece a second thought. Not even a first, to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted April 17, 2021 Share Posted April 17, 2021 If Shireen was a somewhat adult, healthy male. Maybe. But Shireen's a child, a girl in a sexist society and very sickly in an ableist society. Shireen's simply not a threat, no one in his sane mind would support her over Renly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James West Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 Renly would follow in Robert's footsteps and do what he believes will secure his reign. Selyse and Shireen could be sent to exile or guested with a trusted ally for the remainder of their lives. He will only murder them if Selyse proved intractable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 Renly may not kill Stannis's wife and daughter. But Renly's Tyrell friends may see things in a different light and arrange for two accidents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 On 4/17/2021 at 4:30 AM, Leonardo said: If everything went awry for him and Stannis had died outside of Storm's End instead of Renly, I was curious what would have happened to the rest of his household. I assume all would be confirmed in titles in exchange for homage, but more importantly, would Shireen be allowed to live? She would, by some estimations, have the better claim to the throne, but historically would have been denied. Based on Renly's exchange with Catelyn I'm inclined to say he'd allow it; Renly didn't want to rock boats, he wanted a smooth transition, even if it meant Robb calling himself king(!!!) as long as he bent the knee. This probably would cause trouble down the line but Renly was so here and now... I was curious about opinions and arguments. Does Shireen survive in the reign of King Renly I? Does Selyse survive or is the supplantation a reward for the Tyrells or other Reach houses? She would have become his ward and he would have married her to whomever suited his needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 I agree with Shireen becoming Renly's ward. I disagree with him marrying her off. Any offspring she produced would have a legitimate claim to his titles, best avoid that. He'd keep her locked in a tower in Storm's End, out of sight, out of mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaak Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said: I agree with Shireen becoming Renly's ward. I disagree with him marrying her off. Any offspring she produced would have a legitimate claim to his titles, best avoid that. There would be one obvious option to marry Shireen off, eventually. A future son of Renly and Margaery. But that would leave the pick of Shireen or Myrcella. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Warning Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 6 minutes ago, Jaak said: There would be one obvious option to marry Shireen off, eventually. A future son of Renly and Margaery. But that would leave the pick of Shireen or Myrcella. Renly would be much better off marrying his child to a powerful vassal, stopping Shireen and Myrcella having children with a claim is important but gaining legitimacy by having his own children marry one of them is negligible when he's already usurped several claimants that are obviously ahead of him. Renly's gonna be called a usurper his entire reign, his children too. Marrying off Shireen to a son won't change that but gaining more allies may stem the potential turbulence of his rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 On 4/17/2021 at 9:14 AM, Canon Claude said: Selyse joins the silent sisters (presumably after they cut her tongue out) and Shireen is sent to Oldtown. Either that or she’s banished to Old Valyria because of her greyscale. That's show, ser. Valyria is a burnt wasteland in the books. On 4/17/2021 at 1:30 AM, Leonardo said: I was curious about opinions and arguments. Does Shireen survive in the reign of King Renly I? Does Selyse survive or is the supplantation a reward for the Tyrells or other Reach houses? The worst solution Renly could've come up with, and is horrible, is killing Shireen. Luckily, Renly doesn't seem that sort of guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canon Claude Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 30 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said: That's show, ser. Valyria is a burnt wasteland in the books. My mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted April 23, 2021 Share Posted April 23, 2021 16 hours ago, Canon Claude said: My mistake. It's fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eltharion21 Posted April 23, 2021 Share Posted April 23, 2021 On 4/21/2021 at 5:59 PM, Lion of the West said: Renly may not kill Stannis's wife and daughter. But Renly's Tyrell friends may see things in a different light and arrange for two accidents. Well Tyrell name does remind of Sir James Tyrrell, the man who in Shakespeare's play organizes murders of of the Princes in the Tower under Richard III's orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyser1 Posted April 23, 2021 Share Posted April 23, 2021 Answers suggesting that Renly would take her as a ward and those alluding to Tyrell plots are what makes the most sense. While I don’t doubt the Tyrells would be brutal enough to have her “taken care of” if needed or wanted, I think that Shireen has a significantly higher chance of living in this circumstances at hand. A girl with a facial deformity, no allies (at least not against Renly). Unless Renly had all daughters, she doesn’t stand much of a chance. Even then, she’d need firm allies. Although playing devil’s advocate, I think her Florent blood is a bigger threat to her life than Baratheon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted April 25, 2021 Share Posted April 25, 2021 On 4/23/2021 at 7:45 PM, nyser1 said: Answers suggesting that Renly would take her as a ward and those alluding to Tyrell plots are what makes the most sense. While I don’t doubt the Tyrells would be brutal enough to have her “taken care of” if needed or wanted, I think that Shireen has a significantly higher chance of living in this circumstances at hand. A girl with a facial deformity, no allies (at least not against Renly). Unless Renly had all daughters, she doesn’t stand much of a chance. Even then, she’d need firm allies. Although playing devil’s advocate, I think her Florent blood is a bigger threat to her life than Baratheon. I think that you overestimate how much Shireen needs to be a threat. She does not need either friends or allies, only puppetmasters, to be a threat to the Tyrell. And a child with both Baratheon and Florent blood? As I see it its a dagger pointed straight at the heart of the Tyrells. Hence why I want them to get her gone and not leave loose ends behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyser1 Posted April 25, 2021 Share Posted April 25, 2021 9 hours ago, Lion of the West said: I think that you overestimate how much Shireen needs to be a threat. She does not need either friends or allies, only puppetmasters, to be a threat to the Tyrell. And a child with both Baratheon and Florent blood? As I see it its a dagger pointed straight at the heart of the Tyrells. Hence why I want them to get her gone and not leave loose ends behind. While your points are fair and I do believe Westeros is dark and cruel standard wise, by this precedent- every generation would have seen the heir to the throne’s siblings murdered at his hands or that of their married family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted April 26, 2021 Share Posted April 26, 2021 22 hours ago, nyser1 said: While your points are fair and I do believe Westeros is dark and cruel standard wise, by this precedent- every generation would have seen the heir to the throne’s siblings murdered at his hands or that of their married family. Everything you write is true yet again the the Tyrells are masters of PR and scheming. Remember they did get Joffrey killed and married Margaery to Tommen and keep their new power at court. So far no harm has come to attach themselves for it. I don't doubt for a second the Tyrells couldn't, and wouldn't, pull it off in way that makes somone else look responsible while they express their shock and grief at the horrible event. And as a disclaimer, I do not personally condone, support or in any way accept such actions RL or morally. Just in case people get ideas about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyser1 Posted April 26, 2021 Share Posted April 26, 2021 31 minutes ago, Lion of the West said: Everything you write is true yet again the the Tyrells are masters of PR and scheming. Remember they did get Joffrey killed and married Margaery to Tommen and keep their new power at court. So far no harm has come to attach themselves for it. I don't doubt for a second the Tyrells couldn't, and wouldn't, pull it off in way that makes somone else look responsible while they express their shock and grief at the horrible event. And as a disclaimer, I do not personally condone, support or in any way accept such actions RL or morally. Just in case people get ideas about it. Thanks for your well articulated and logical response. Sad that you feel that you need to have to disclaim that in a chat about fiction, I never suspected such :). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted April 26, 2021 Share Posted April 26, 2021 On 4/25/2021 at 4:48 AM, Lion of the West said: I think that you overestimate how much Shireen needs to be a threat. She does not need either friends or allies, only puppetmasters, to be a threat to the Tyrell. And a child with both Baratheon and Florent blood? As I see it its a dagger pointed straight at the heart of the Tyrells. If any 'puppetmaster' wanted to push a claim to threaten the Tyrell's claim to Highgarden, he would never choose Shireen. He'd certainly look from a male. From one of the families that also have blood ties with the Gardener kings of old but that are more prestigious and powerful than the Florents (such as Rowan or Oakheart). And if a Florent had to be chosen, it wouldn't be a daughter of a daughter of a third-born son. Shireen is an absolute no one when discussing the rights to Brightwater Keep. She's even less, in relation to Highgarden. And that's even before taking into account the fact that she's a scarred little girl seen as a monstrosity by many. The Tyrells wouldn't consider her as a threat at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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