Why Jon's true name might not be a Targaryen name

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

45 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, there are two layers to that, I guess. For the characters of the series this might be the case. But the naming thing was more systematized when George made the family trees for FaB. The older names still come out of the left field. Aenys makes some sense, as it is just Rhaenys without the 'Rh', but why Visenya named her son Maegor is completely unclear. The same with the names of Daeron II's children and grandchildren. Valarr and Matarys are especially weird names.

I meant for the characters in the series. Maybe the characters from the past are there to establish family traditions and customary names but still have a meaning for the character. For example Brandon the meaning is either beacon hill or crow it fits Bran, dare I say Bloodraven too, but is also a traditional Stark name. Or Cersei which is similar to Circe the mythological enchantress who lures men to their doom.

About Valarr and Matarys I think that this is what GRRM meant when he said that ‘there are always Henrys, Edwards and a Richard here or there but when you see a prince named Eustace you know that he will not make it till the end.’ Which is something that can also be told about Robb in the Starks, he was the only child, Jon included, who had a name outside from the family tree.

[Daeron the Daring]

12 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Lil oopsie.

12 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

I love the condescension.

I am not condescending you. I am trying to respect your opinion even though it's in a lack of logic.

12 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Usually the desperate resort of people who don't know how else to try to win an argument. Let me make it clear to you in very simple terms: your whole discussion about Jon's looks is completely irrelevant to the topic.

I am not trying to prove anything desperately to anyone here. If you consider my discussion about Jon's looks fully irrelevant, ignore it. It wasn't a pity or desperate last card combo to prove anything oe win a final showdown of our discussion here. But if you stand to this discussion like someone who's inclined to change his own opinion (which, at this point, I honestly doubt), give it another shot.

12 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Lyanna didn't "name" Jon because she had no way of doing it other than telling someone she wanted him named X, specifically telling Ned. And Ned wasn't a jerk who would ignore her dying wishes - unless she was an idiot who wanted Ned to give him a Targ name while simultaneously asking Ned to protect him. In which case, her dying wishes would be contradicting each other. 

Again, may I ask you why not using any kind of name of Jon given by Lyanna would be a disrespectful from Ned? If he received a Targaryen name, why couldn't Ned go like "Okay, that could be your name, but we can't use that, so noone will know that and I'll call you Jon afterwards."? It is not such a thing. Noone yet considered it that, but you.

12 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

"People would think it's insulting for Ned to call a bastard Brandon or Rickhard" - oh, so you're saying Ned was, in the eyes of the world, insulting Jon Arryn? That makes so much sense...

Noone insisted yet that Jon was named after Jon Arryn (whicj might still be a possibility). A name like Brandon (which I again don't believe might be Jon's real name, but whatever), on the other hand, would surely insult Catelyn, and people also wouldn't understand why Ned named his bastard after his father instead of a trueborn one.

At this point, however, I feel like you're not opened to any suggestion in this discussion, and with already saying what I think should be said, I say goodbye to you.

[LynnS]

I think we can say that whatever 'other' name might have been given; we can say with some certainty that he would have a bastard surname.  That depends on where he was born.  He is only a 'Snow' because Ned has claimed him and because he looks like a Stark. 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon I

"Did I offend you?" Lannister said. "Sorry. Dwarfs don't have to be tactful. Generations of capering fools in motley have won me the right to dress badly and say any damn thing that comes into my head." He grinned. "You are the bastard, though."

"Lord Eddard Stark is my father," Jon admitted stiffly.

Lannister studied his face. "Yes," he said. "I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."

"Half brothers," Jon corrected. He was pleased by the dwarf's comment, but he tried not to let it show.

Brynden Rivers looks like a Targaryen rather than a Blackwood; while Jon looks like a Stark rather than a Targaryen or a Tully.

More curious to me is Jon's real bastard name and whether that reflects his bloodline or where he was born.

Jon Sand doesn't much appeal to me.  Jon Snow-Storm reflects his character, if nothing else.

As for Ned naming his kids, that seems fairly conventional to me.  Jon after Jon Arryn who was like a father to Ned;  Robb after Robert Baratheon, who was like a brother to Ned; Bran after Ned's older brother and Rickon after his grand-father.

Whatever Rhaegar or Lyanna might have called him; it certainly wasn't Aegon.  If there must be one more, I don't think he was talking about another son, but another daughter.  

If Lyanna wanted to hide and protect her son; It's entirely possible that she would want to name her son Eddard after her own brother.   That would be a little too on the nose for Catelyn.  It's also entirely possible that Lyanna didn't give him a name at all.

In Dany's vision in the House of Undying, It's Rhaegar who names Aegon:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"

"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.

Rhaegar names him when he is born.  It doesn't sound like there was any discussing of baby names with Elia in advance of the birth.   So I doubt there was any advanced discussion with Lyanna or that she would have had a say in it.  His name is Jon and Ned gave him his name.

[Egged]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think we can say that whatever 'other' name might have been given; we can say with some certainty that he would have a bastard surname.  That depends on where he was born.  He is only a 'Snow' because Ned has claimed him and because he looks like a Stark. 

Brynden Rivers looks like a Targaryen rather than a Blackwood; while Jon looks like a Stark rather than a Targaryen or a Tully.

More curious to me is Jon's real bastard name and whether that reflects his bloodline or where he was born.

Jon Sand doesn't much appeal to me.  Jon Snow-Storm reflects his character, if nothing else.

As for Ned naming his kids, that seems fairly conventional to me.  Jon after Jon Arryn who was like a father to Ned;  Robb after Robert Baratheon, who was like a brother to Ned; Bran after Ned's older brother and Rickon after his grand-father.

Whatever Rhaegar or Lyanna might have called him; it certainly wasn't Aegon.  If there must be one more, I don't think he was talking about another son, but another daughter.  

If Lyanna wanted to hide and protect her son; It's entirely possible that she would want to name her son Eddard after her own brother.   That would be a little too on the nose for Catelyn.  It's also entirely possible that Lyanna didn't give him a name at all.

In Dany's vision in the House of Undying, It's Rhaegar who names Aegon:

Rhaegar names him when he is born.  It doesn't sound like there was any discussing of baby names with Elia in advance of the birth.   So I doubt there was any advanced discussion with Lyanna or that she would have had a say in it.  His name is Jon and Ned gave him his name.

Depends on why Rhaegar left, which was for war. So quite a different situation and he may well have chosen a name ahead. If people believe he no longer thought that Aegon was the prince who was promised, no longer going to be king, that his song was no longer the song of ice and fire, they are saying we don't know at all what he might have been thinking or what he might have foreseen at that point.

And if no name was chosen and Lyanna knew Rhaegar died, why wouldn't Lyanna name him? In that case, no way would she name him Jon lol. Would she name him Benjen? Aemon? Or Brandon?

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Egged said:

And if no name was chosen and Lyanna knew Rhaegar died, why wouldn't Lyanna name him? In that case, no way would she name him Jon lol. Would she name him Benjen? Aemon? Or Brandon?

Whatever you want Egged.  Seems to me that Ned named his sons rather than Catelyn.  None are named after her relatives and it looks like Rhaegar named Aegon at his birth quite arbitrarily.   Why didn't she name him?  I don't know:  "Ned take my son as your own and give him a name."  Really, why care about Jon having an official 'secret' name'?  If he's Rhaegar's son. does it matter if he is named Jon?

[Egged]

4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Whatever you want Egged.  Seems to me that Ned named his sons rather than Catelyn.  None are named after her relatives and it looks like Rhaegar named Aegon at his birth quite arbitrarily.   Why didn't she name him?  I don't know:  "Ned take my son as your own and give him a name."  Really, why care about Jon having an official 'secret' name'?  If he's Rhaegar's son. does it matter if he is named Jon?

From Lyanna's point of view it's not complicated like you make it out to be.

She and Rhaegar had a child.

Rhaegar probably thought he would live, so we can assume he probably didn't pick a name yet, but may have, doesn't matter.

Jon is born, and Lyanna knows Rhaegar is dead by then, news travel faster than knights. So she names her child Brandon, the brother who died looking for her.

Done.

It has nothing to do with "secret names" lol. She didn't give Ned instructions on how to keep Jon from knowing who he is and all that, that was Ned's doing. She ask Ned to protect him. Ned then decided to give him another name afterwards as Brandon would be a problem back home.

[LynnS]

Just now, Egged said:

From Lyanna's point of view it's not complicated like you make it out to be.

I'm not making it complicated.  I'm making it very simple.  Coming up with a secret name for Jon and rationalizing what someone so close to death would have said other than bury me in the crypts and 'promise me' is complicating matters.  But carry on.

[divica]

21 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Whatever you want Egged.  Seems to me that Ned named his sons rather than Catelyn.  None are named after her relatives and it looks like Rhaegar named Aegon at his birth quite arbitrarily.   Why didn't she name him?  I don't know:  "Ned take my son as your own and give him a name."  Really, why care about Jon having an official 'secret' name'?  If he's Rhaegar's son. does it matter if he is named Jon?

Didn t cat name robb? Because he was born before she and ned reunited?

And it is a bit weird for ned to name the baby jon instead of rickard. After all his real father should come before jon arryn no? 

 

ps It would very weird for ned to name robb that name given that he just had a major fight with his besty and one true love robert.

[divica]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm not making it complicated.  I'm making it very simple.  Coming up with a secret name for Jon and rationalizing what someone so close to death would have said other than bury me in the crypts and 'promise me' is complicating matters.  But carry on.

You are forgeting that lyanna could have told the name of the baby to one of the servants during her pregnancy, during childbirth or after. 

[divica]

11 minutes ago, Egged said:

From Lyanna's point of view it's not complicated like you make it out to be.

She and Rhaegar had a child.

Rhaegar probably thought he would live, so we can assume he probably didn't pick a name yet, but may have, doesn't matter.

Jon is born, and Lyanna knows Rhaegar is dead by then, news travel faster than knights. So she names her child Brandon, the brother who died looking for her.

Done.

It has nothing to do with "secret names" lol. She didn't give Ned instructions on how to keep Jon from knowing who he is and all that, that was Ned's doing. She ask Ned to protect him. Ned then decided to give him another name afterwards as Brandon would be a problem back home.

That doesn t make sense. If she gave him a northern name ned wouldn't change it because it would just be cruel. Nobody would find it strange for ned to name his bastard any northern name of his choosing.

And depending on the circustances lyanna naming her son brandon could be quite insulting...

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, divica said:

Didn t cat name robb? Because he was born before she and ned reunited?

And it is a bit weird for ned to name the baby jon instead of rickard. After all his real father should come before jon arryn no? 

ps It would very weird for ned to name robb that name given that he just had a major fight with his besty and one true love robert.

Correct.  I just don't think it matters whether Lyanna had another name picked out or not. It's not likely we will ever know and what difference does it make?. Brynden Rivers didn't changed his name even after becoming a great bastard.  Why would Jon call himself anything but Jon Snow?  

[divica]

13 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Correct.  I just don't think it matters whether Lyanna had another name picked out or not. It's not likely we will ever know and what difference does it make?. Brynden Rivers didn't changed his name even after becoming a great bastard.  Why would Jon call himself anything but Jon Snow?  

I think it is more of a curiosity. And if jon accepts robb's will won t he call himself jon stark?

Anyway, I think it would be cool to know what name lyanna inteded jon to have (I bet on something starting with a J) so that if the time comes jon could say something like this-"I will take the targaryan name for rhaegar but I will keep being jon for my other father" or something along those lines.

[Egged]

The implication is the NK's name was Brandon and he was defeated by another Brandon, Brandon the Breaker, and Jon is the future NK and Bran Stark the future Brandon the Breaker 

[Springwatch]

22 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

I meant for the characters in the series. Maybe the characters from the past are there to establish family traditions and customary names but still have a meaning for the character. For example Brandon the meaning is either beacon hill or crow it fits Bran, dare I say Bloodraven too, but is also a traditional Stark name. Or Cersei which is similar to Circe the mythological enchantress who lures men to their doom.

There is an SSM

Quote

Cersei and Homer

I know my Homer, of course, but Cersei is not based on Circe. Many names sound alike.

Arya is two syllables.

Why, why, why cannot we be reminded of Circe? How not? It fits so well. What does he mean when he adds that many names sound alike? Because there's not much else that could sound like Cersei (nearest in the books is Sissy).

I wish I knew more about his naming schemes. Anyone know any more about statements he has made, to track them down?

[Back in Black-Snow]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm not making it complicated.  I'm making it very simple.  Coming up with a secret name for Jon and rationalizing what someone so close to death would have said other than bury me in the crypts and 'promise me' is complicating matters.  But carry on.

I agree. Ned named Jon. Or maybe it was Lyanna. But there is no need for a secret name. Even if it was Lyanna who named Jon, more than likely she was waiting for Rhaegar. So she didn't name him until Ned showed up and she found out Rhaegar was dead. Or Ned named him after Lyanna died. Anything else is irrelevant.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

47 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

There is an SSM

Why, why, why cannot we be reminded of Circe? How not? It fits so well. What does he mean when he adds that many names sound alike? Because there's not much else that could sound like Cersei (nearest in the books is Sissy).

I wish I knew more about his naming schemes. Anyone know any more about statements he has made, to track them down?

Really? To me it was a given they fit so well. Their name, their modus operandi even the pigs.

[The hairy bear]

58 minutes ago, Travis said:

Even if it was Lyanna who named Jon, more than likely she was waiting for Rhaegar. So she didn't name him until Ned showed up and she found out Rhaegar was dead.

There should be no doubt that Lyanna was fully aware of Rhaegar's death by the time she gave birth. She was in the Tower of Joy with the three KG who had a detailed knowledge of everything that had transpired in the war (remember the "I looked for you in the Trident" exchange).

So she would have thought of which name he'd want to give to her child beforehand. She may have confided it to her companions. But in any case, it makes no sense to assume that she didn't have time to name her son. Complications from childbirth do not cause an sudden death.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

There should be no doubt that Lyanna was fully aware of Rhaegar's death by the time she gave birth. She was in the Tower of Joy with the three KG who had a detailed knowledge of everything that had transpired in the war (remember the "I looked for you in the Trident" exchange).

So she would have thought of which name he'd want to give to her child beforehand. She may have confided it to her companions. But in any case, it makes no sense to assume that she didn't have time to name her son. Complications from childbirth do not cause an sudden death.

Keep in mind that naming is a rather crucial ceremony in Westeros. It is called 'nameday' and not 'birthday' for a reason, I assume. They might coincide often enough, but not always, one assumes, or else there would be birthday feasts.

Lya would have had bigger fish to fry to actually name her son. She and Rhaegar may have thought about names before, sure ... and they may have agreed on names. Or not, since I very much could see that Lya didn't want a Targaryen name for her child in light of what Aerys did to her family.

In any case: A Targaryen name for Lya's child is a no go after Robert won the war. If Lya knew that - and it seems to be the case that she did, even if she wasn't knowing all the details - then a Targaryen name for the boy would be a mark on his head. Meaning she may have never given the child a name at all, leaving that wholly to Ned.

That would especially make sense if Ned found Lya very shortly after the birth. But even if a couple of days had passed depending Lya slowly or quickly dying she may have never got the opportunity to do this ... leaving the entire thing to the knights at the tower who, presumably, would take care of the boy when she was gone.

[Jaenara Belarys]

Since Rhaegar already had a son named Aegon I'm going to go with Aemon.