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Fragile Bird

US Politics: Stamping out Chauvinism

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Posted (edited)
On 4/21/2021 at 8:43 AM, Fez said:

But that doesn't mean they fuck up 100% of the time. And just because they often don't shoot Whites even when it would be justified that doesn't mean that when they do shoot POCs its never justified. From my perspective, this time it seems justified.

It should be noted not every police killing of a white person whose killed by police is justified. 

This is the problem with comparing individual high profile media cases.
For example Tony Tampa died died from a similar amount police brutality as Floyd.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/aug/02/dallas-police-officers-video-bodycam-tony-timpa

Racist Trends do exist in terms of the frequency of police abuse can’t safely be squared away by “black people commit more crime”

Trends police being more likely to plant evidence on black people than white people.

That doesn’t mean no police has ever planted evidence on white people.

Just that they’re more significantly likely to do it against black people.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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1 minute ago, Rippounet said:

in this case, the use of force by the officer was legitimate, but that is not the same as it being justified.

If it is not justified in the preservation of the life of someone being attacked with a deadly weapon, then what is the scenario where it is in fact justified? 

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6 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

For what it's worth, you're not alone.

Appreciate you, @Rippounet. Also for putting this in far more intelligent and less inflammatory terms than I.

6 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

This was a difficult situation that could absolutely be dealt with without the recourse to deadly force, providing police officers had the gear and training to do so. It's almost a textbook example of why law enforcement is so problematic in the US: in this case, the use of force by the officer was legitimate, but that is not the same as it being justified.
In an ideal world, the police is almost never justified in using deadly force, and killing someone, regardless of what they've done, is a failure. What I get from this case and these images is that US cops will easily be just as dangerous as the criminals they're supposed to protect from - which, given all the recent cases, we already knew.

++!

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10 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

For what it's worth, you're not alone.

This was a difficult situation that could absolutely be dealt with without the recourse to deadly force, providing police officers had the gear and training to do so. It's almost a textbook example of why law enforcement is so problematic in the US: in this case, the use of force by the officer was legitimate, but that is not the same as it being justified.
In an ideal world, the police is almost never justified in using deadly force, and killing someone, regardless of what they've done, is a failure. What I get from this case and these images is that US cops will easily be just as dangerous as the criminals they're supposed to protect from - which, given all the recent cases, we already knew.

What gear? What training?

Seriously, I'd like to know. And don't give me something like Crisis Intervention Training (CIT) programs; those are not intended when an act of violence is already in progress.

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1 hour ago, Week said:

So the people in that neighborhood must be thrilled and thankful for the life "saved", right? Any evidence of that? Or are they furious that someone asked for help and the police left with a body bag? 

Why the quotation marks to communicate sarcasm? A person can be easily killed by getting stabbed with a knife.

 

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It should be noted not every police killing of a white person whose killed by police is justified. 

This is the problem with comparing individual high profile media cases.
For example Tony Tampa died died from a similar amount police brutality as Floyd.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/aug/02/dallas-police-officers-video-bodycam-tony-timpa

Racist Trends do exist in terms of the frequency of police abuse can’t safely be squared away by “black people commit more crime”

Trends police being more likely to plant evidence on black people than white people.

That doesn’t mean no police has ever planted evidence on white people.

Just that they’re more significantly likely to do it against black people.

I think white people are starting to realize they're in danger too. Sometimes cops shoot you if you call them for help as happened to Justine Damond. I'd say police brutality is out of control across the board--the cops in my town attacked and beat my father when he had early onset alzheimer's because he "seemed threatening and was wearing a hoodie" which they put in their report. And is illegal, so helped with the settlement. The next town over, an elderly woman with dementia who may have been lost was beaten and arrested (on video). Even when they're not killing us, all kinds of unnoticed abuses are happening. 

Edited by Centrist Simon Steele

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Centrist Simon Steele said:

I think white people are starting to realize they're in danger too

If they're smart, they are.  Not just by metropolitan police departments, but by every so-called law enforcement organization the US has, and we have even more than we realize,

I will never forget how the state police in Texas treated us, as we got caught by a speed trap -- situated between two hills on the highway. The questions they demanded us to answer, all the rest.  That's just one example.  So far we've been fortunate not being hurt worse than that by cops in Texas and Ohio, who have always been notorious for a$$holery due to Ohio using speeding tix etc. to fund whatever.

I read in the NY Times that the cop who killed the girl is a crack shot.  If that is true,  why shoot to kill, and shoot her that many times, particularly right after the verdict of Chauvin came down?

But at this time we sure don't don't know everything pertinent, so I am withholding judgment, well as much as it's possible for someone like me to do so in such a situation, knowing so well the history cops shooting unarmed black children (and others) in this nation, for way over a century now.

Edited by Zorral

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18 minutes ago, Centrist Simon Steele said:

I think white people are starting to realize they're in danger too. Sometimes cops shoot you if you call them for help as happened to Justine Damond. 

The cop who shot her actually got convicted and went to jail. I wondered what was different in that case? Oh right, he was a brown-skinned guy named Mohamed.

The thin blue line gets a little thinner around non-white cops.

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3 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

And had she stabbed the woman she was attacking before he could get to her?

That’s not a given it would have happened since she hadn’t stabbed anyone yet, and if she had it’d been less likely to be deadly than the officer’s shot. They should choose the path that makes less people dead.

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5 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

That’s not a given it would have happened since she hadn’t stabbed anyone yet, and if she had it’d been less likely to be deadly than the officer’s shot. They should choose the path that makes less people dead.

I don’t disagree.  But when someone’s life is literally at risk because they are being attacked with a deadly weapon I cannot, without more context, condemn the officer for acting to to protect the person being attacked.

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1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I don’t disagree.  But when someone’s life is literally at risk because they are being attacked with a deadly weapon I cannot, without more context, condemn the officer for acting to to protect the person being attacked.

There’s a reason that “bringing a gun to a knife fight” is an expression we all understand as being about overkill.

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6 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

That’s not a given it would have happened since she hadn’t stabbed anyone yet, and if she had it’d been less likely to be deadly than the officer’s shot. They should choose the path that makes less people dead.

It's also not a given that the officer could have gotten to Bryant before she stabbed the girl in pink multiple times, and one stab wound in the right place is enough to kill a person. It's also not a given that the officer doesn't get stabbed in the process of tackling Bryant. There's also a scenario here where two people are dead and Bryant is spending decades, if not the rest of her life, in prison.

No one is saying that it's a good thing Bryant was shot. It's deeply unfortunate, but there are other scenarios that could have resulted in worse outcomes than what happened.

 

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11 hours ago, mormont said:

Not to fault anyone for that (I'm not sure myself, and honestly even the likes of bfc may be looking at it and not really sure how he'd have reacted), but I do think this is really a critical factor, without which it's hard to say for sure whether this was justified or a further example of how US policing is problematic.

Thanks Mormont, this is part of what I was trying to get at and losing track of my point in getting frustrated. That there must be departments where the first response in a situation like this isn't to just kill one person.

3 hours ago, Fury Resurrected said:

Run up and tackle her. More likely than not nothing would have happened that couldn’t be fixed with stitches and everyone lives. They should have a mandate to preserve life and if they want credit for “putting their lives on the line” this is how to earn it.

 

10 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

That’s not a given it would have happened since she hadn’t stabbed anyone yet, and if she had it’d been less likely to be deadly than the officer’s shot. They should choose the path that makes less people dead.

@Ser Scot A Ellison if you read my replies looking to understand my point rather than just find a quote you can snip down to engage in your pedantic scotratic debate style I made it pretty clear that I'm at a similar point to Fury. When the threat level is a potential stabbing I want them to go with the uncertain option that has a chance of no one dying, rather than the certainty of one person being dead by repeated shots.

If deadly force is absolutely required it should still be only enough to eliminate significant threat, which in a case like this would be a single shot hitting followed by other physical intervention and then rendering medical treatment. Shooting her 5 times is not stopping the threat, it's deciding that her life is the problem and killing her. Which is a problem with policy and training.

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9 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

It's also not a given that the officer could have gotten to Bryant before she stabbed the girl in pink multiple times, and one stab wound in the right place is enough to kill a person. It's also not a given that the officer doesn't get stabbed in the process of tackling Bryant. There's also a scenario here where two people are dead and Bryant is spending decades, if not the rest of her life, in prison.

No one is saying that it's a good thing Bryant was shot. It's deeply unfortunate, but there are other scenarios that could have resulted in worse outcomes than what happened.

It's also not a given that if the police hadn't shown up someone would be stabbed. Suicide by cop is a real thing. 

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11 minutes ago, Karlbear said:

It's also not a given that if the police hadn't shown up someone would be stabbed. Suicide by cop is a real thing. 

I mean sure, but that's kind of a stretch here. We have no evidence suggesting that was a possible motivation. 

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back in security guard school (2 day class) many years ago, the rule was:

 

1 - You do not drawn your firearm unless you intend to use it.

2 - You use your firearm *ONLY* if a life is at stake.

3 - If you use your firearm, you shoot to kill - no shooting to wound.

Years later, point 3 was changed to 'shoot to stop.'  (usually interpreted as 'center of mass.')

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2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I mean sure, but that's kind of a stretch here. We have no evidence suggesting that was a possible motivation. 

It doesn't have to be a motivation - it can be a desperate reaction. In general police presence for the AA population in the US is not a de-escalating tactic. 

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, Karlbear said:

It doesn't have to be a motivation - it can be a desperate reaction. 

But that's the height of speculation, because again, we have nothing to suggest that's the case. And even if it was, let's say, it doesn't change the fact she tried to attack two people with a knife. The framing in this event is just so odd (and not just here). I'm watching Joy Reid's show right now and a panel of four agreed that Bryant was trying to defend herself by lunging at someone with a knife, someone I might add who was pinned against a car and cowering, i.e., zero threat to Bryant at all. 

Quote

In general police presence for the AA population in the US is not a de-escalating tactic. 

Typically yes, but you can't always deescalate every situation. Chauvin had infinite points in which he could have defused the situation, but didn't. Potter had an easy possibility to deescalate the situation with Wright. Shit, they wanted him on minor charges and had his address. Let him go and arrest him later. But this situation? Hard to really deescalate things when you show up on a scene and within seconds you see someone trying to stab another person when you were called because someone feared a person was trying to stab people. There's no time to deescalate, at best you could try to mitigate the situation, but in that situation the cop's first duty is to protect the person who appears is about to be stabbed.

Edited by Tywin et al.

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1 hour ago, karaddin said:

If deadly force is absolutely required it should still be only enough to eliminate significant threat, which in a case like this would be a single shot hitting followed by other physical intervention and then rendering medical treatment. Shooting her 5 times is not stopping the threat, it's deciding that her life is the problem and killing her. Which is a problem with policy and training.

My understanding is that the problem with a single shot is that it's not a guarantee to stop someone immediately. It'll stop them very quickly, but momentum can carry them for a half second/full second. Which would be plenty of time for the girl in pink to still get stabbed once and then you've potentially got two dead people. That's why training in the US is always to shoot multiple times. 

I know some people disagree with that training, even folks in this thread who think the shooting itself was justified. Personally, I think the training makes sense. Firearms are lethal force. If a situation has escalated to where a firearm is justified (which I do believe should be a very high bar, but I think this specific situation merits it), that means lethal force is justified. And if lethal force is justified, be lethal; don't take chances that could result in the bad event still occurring that you're trying to stop.

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Again I just think you're massively overestimating the likelihood of a swiftly fatal stabbing being performed by a teen girl who has just lost a lot of her momentum and aim due to being shot. Also overestimating the likelihood that a teen girl is able to continue doing much of anything after being shot.

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