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Fragile Bird

US Politics: Stamping out Chauvinism

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7 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

I wish the cops watching Kyle Rittenhouse play soldier had demonstrated similar concern for the lives of bystanders. Fuck, it's been revealed that multiple cops have donated to Rittenhouse's defense.

Again, my point is that there are different scales of response for different colors of skin.

Pretty sure like yesterday I saw a video of a guy swinging an axe at cops without them pulling out their guns and shooting him.

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13 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

The argument that it was necessary to shoot and kill a teenaged girl with a knife would hold more currency if I hadn't seen multiple videos of white motorists drawing a gun on cops or driving off from a traffic stop and keeping their lives.

The calculation about necessary force in any situation seems to have a multiplier when the subject is non-white.

I'm not defending all police, they fuck up all too often. And way too many of them are rabid MAGAs, which presents additional problems.

But that doesn't mean they fuck up 100% of the time. And just because they often don't shoot Whites even when it would be justified that doesn't mean that when they do shoot POCs its never justified. From my perspective, this time it seems justified.

Also, if you want to dig into the data, since 2015 in the US there have been 2,885 Whites killed by police, compared to 1,499 African Americans and 1,052 Hispanics. Which, because of population size differences, means African Americans are being killed at a rate more than double that of Whites, and Hispanics at a rate nearly double Whites; there's absolutely a huge problem there. But it does show that Whites do get killed too, it's not like they're immune.

Data from: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/

 

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56 minutes ago, Week said:

Roll up, fire 5 shots into a black kid, declare Blue Lives Matter in the face of the neighborhood. Policing by the book.

https://www.rawstory.com/amp/cops-chant-blue-lives-matter-after-shooting-teen-2652666461?__twitter_impression=true

We desperately need to reexamine our expectation of policing and police if this is an example of a justified killing and good outcome. Jesus Christ. Police killed a kid. We're so numb to it that it seems ok. It is not.

The litany of armed, white mass murderers that have been arrested without harm speaks volumes. 

What armed White mass murderers have been arrested without harm when they were actively using their weapon to attack someone else? If you have examples of that, please tell me about them. 

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1 minute ago, TrueMetis said:

Pretty sure like yesterday I saw a video of a guy swinging an axe at cops without them pulling out their guns and shooting him.

I dunno if folks remember but far right protestors beat a cop to death not long ago.

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7 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

Pretty sure like yesterday I saw a video of a guy swinging an axe at cops without them pulling out their guns and shooting him.

And there is a big difference in my opinion between someone threatening a police officer in such a way and someone threatening a civilian who is physically close to them in such a way. We pay the police to deal with being in danger, but we also pay them to protect other people who are being threatened. What would people be saying today if the girl with the knife had managed to kill or seriously injure the person she was attacking while the police officer stood by? I do think the police should be quicker to use force when a civilian's life is in danger than when just the lives of police officers are. 

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13 minutes ago, Ormond said:

Hey, if you want to be that way I have to point out that the mistake I was correcting had nothing to do with grammar. It was either a simple spelling mistake or a word choice error, neither of which are grammatical problems.  :)

English isn't my native language (although it has over time become something close to it, due to constant use), so I was under the impression that it was spelled that way. I appreciate the correction, though, because it's always good to learn correct spelling. :)

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12 minutes ago, Ormond said:

And there is a big difference in my opinion between someone threatening a police officer in such a way and someone threatening a civilian who is physically close to them in such a way.

I agree. Like I said, the cops didn't seem that concerned about Kyle Rittenhouse and his damn AR-15 when he was shooting multiple people. They protected him like a mama pig protecting her piglet.

12 minutes ago, Ormond said:

We pay the police to deal with being in danger, but we also pay them to protect other people who are being threatened. What would people be saying today if the girl with the knife had managed to kill or seriously injure the person she was attacking while the police officer stood by? I do think the police should be quicker to use force when a civilian's life is in danger than when just the lives of police officers are. 

Then it's a pretty shitty thing for those cops to start taunting the crowd with "Blue Lives Matter" chants.

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42 minutes ago, Fez said:

I'm not defending all police, they fuck up all too often. And way too many of them are rabid MAGAs, which presents additional problems.

But that doesn't mean they fuck up 100% of the time. And just because they often don't shoot Whites even when it would be justified that doesn't mean that when they do shoot POCs its never justified. From my perspective, this time it seems justified.

Also, if you want to dig into the data, since 2015 in the US there have been 2,885 Whites killed by police, compared to 1,499 African Americans and 1,052 Hispanics. Which, because of population size differences, means African Americans are being killed at a rate more than double that of Whites, and Hispanics at a rate nearly double Whites; there's absolutely a huge problem there. But it does show that Whites do get killed too, it's not like they're immune.

Data from: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/

 

The demographics demonstrate the disproportionate violence visited upon people of color.  It’s presence doesn’t mean any and all use of force inappropriate.

What was going on that this girl was swinging a knife?

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I think that there are two problems here that are slightly different than the actual shooting. 

The first is that police were called to a domestic disturbance. There is very rarely a need for police to go to these sorts of things and their presence almost certainly exacerbated the conflict. 

The second is that black girls are often seen as being older and more dangerous than white girls, which results in excessive force.

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1 hour ago, Ormond said:

Hey, if you want to be that way I have to point out that the mistake I was correcting had nothing to do with grammar. It was either a simple spelling mistake or a word choice error, neither of which are grammatical problems.  :)

I actually bet it was autocorrect being evil. :lol:

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2 hours ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

I dunno if folks remember but far right protestors beat a cop to death not long ago.

Not denying the blatant racial biases in policing, but if you mean Officer Sicknick, they apparently ruled that he died of a heart attack one day later.

Of course, nobody was shot while *trying* to beat him to death, so...

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3 hours ago, Ormond said:

Hey, if you want to be that way I have to point out that the mistake I was correcting had nothing to do with grammar. It was either a simple spelling mistake or a word choice error, neither of which are grammatical problems.  :)

I know, and you knew it was a joke. Nobody calls someone a spelling Nazi though. :P

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https://www.instagram.com/washingtonpost/

Attorney General Merrick Garland on Wednesday announced a sweeping Justice Department probe into the practices and culture of the Minneapolis Police Department, elevating the federal government’s role a day after officer Derek Chauvin was found guilty in the murder of George Floyd.

Garland said the “pattern or practice” civil investigation would be conducted separately from an ongoing federal criminal probe opened during the Trump administration over whether Floyd’s civil rights were violated during his arrest and death last May.

The new examination will go beyond Floyd’s case, Garland said, to determine whether the Minneapolis department has engaged in systemic misconduct that constituted “unconstitutional or unlawful policing.”

“Nothing can fill the void the loved ones of George Floyd have felt since his death,” Garland said during brief remarks at Justice Department headquarters. “My heart goes out to them and to all those who have experienced similar loss.”

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Worth a read for the Charlie Browns trusting and believing in the police narrative and justification of killing a 15 year old girl with a kitchen knife.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Week said:

Worth a read for the Charlie Browns trusting and believing in the police narrative and justification of killing a 15 year old girl with a kitchen knife.

 

 

It's not really a fair comparison. Rittenhouse ran up to police with his gun on his back to turn himself in after it happened. Police were not there when he shot two people.

I think it's a deplorable thing that probably should be an unlawful killing, but this equivalence does no one any favors.

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1 minute ago, Karlbear said:

It's not really a fair comparison. Rittenhouse ran up to police with his gun on his back to turn himself in after it happened. Police were not there when he shot two people.

I think it's a deplorable thing that probably should be an unlawful killing, but this equivalence does no one any favors.

The whole thread is worth reading. A consideration of what was lost when the cop fired five shots into the chest of a 15 year old with a kitchen knife.

Re: Rittenhouse, he was given water and thanked for his support by police earlier. A completely random white kid with a gun = ally. That's the rub where comparing the two is valid.

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1 minute ago, Week said:

The whole thread is worth reading. A consideration of what was lost when the cop fired five shots into the chest of a 15 year old with a kitchen knife.

Re: Rittenhouse, he was given water and thanked for his support by police earlier. A completely random white kid with a gun = ally. That's the rub where comparing the two is valid.

Again, it's really not. Comparing the behavior of police when someone is not actively attacking someone else with their behavior when someone is just doesn't work. Rittenhouse and how he was treated is an entire different problem, but comparing the two really doesn't work on any level. 

There are plenty of other cases where a police officer successfully defused a person acting violently with weapons that you should use. Rittenhouse really isn't that.

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Viewing a random white kid with an AR-15 as an ally and thanking him - is a problem. Perhaps completely separate in your mind, fine.

Plenty of examples of police not murdering aggressive knife wielders on google. Other strategies and values that could lead to police killing less people*.

*Unclear whether police feel that they kill too many people. Seems like a problem in and of itself.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41314562

Quote

Even those who bang the drum loudest for a rethink over the use of deadly force acknowledge that it is still sometimes the only option, and the 300 million or so guns in America put it in a vastly different position to countries like Scotland. "Make no mistake, there are times when force is going to be immediate and required," said Lt Lutz.

 

But in places like Camden, they are trying to shift the emphasis. Officers are taught to put an "absolute value on the life of the person they encounter, regardless of what behaviour they are exhibiting at the time," said Lt Lutz.

 

"If our officers value life, and they are morally sound, and they are responding to the call and thinking through why they are there, then we believe some of the more controversial shootings that have taken place across the country, right or wrong, can be avoided."

 

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9 minutes ago, Week said:

Viewing a random white kid with an AR-15 as an ally and thanking him - is a problem. Perhaps completely separate in your mind, fine.

Yes, because he was not in the act of violence at the time. I don't understand why someone who is immediately attacking someone else with a knife is equivalent in behavior to someone who simply has a weapon on them but is not acting violent. Simply carrying harmful items is not and should not be treated the same as someone who is violent with or without a weapon. 

9 minutes ago, Week said:

Plenty of examples of police not murdering aggressive knife wielders on google. Other strategies and values that could lead to police killing less people*.

I 100% agree. This is more about a strategy to talking to it- it's not very strategic to compare this to Rittenhouse. Compare to the cases where police were able to subdue someone with a weapon who was acting immediately threatening. 

 

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