Football: The Giggs up!

[Spockydog]

Avram Glazer's ponytail really is something.

 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

14 hours ago, polishgenius said:

 

 

Tuchel would be lucky to lace Guardiola's shoes.

 

Which isn't to say that he can't win the final but there's a gulf there.

I am not saying he is as good as Guardiola, which he obviously isn't. I am saying they share their idea of football. However, I think you are underestimating Tuchel quite a bit. Small story from their Bundesliga days.

During Tuchel's sabbatical (14/15 season I think), the two of them regularly met at high priced restaurants in Munich and discussed football games, tactics and plays from games that happened years ago. One of the stories goes, that they were pushing around so many salt- and pepper-pots around, while discussing stuff so lively, that the staff didn't dare to go near their table to deliver drinks, because they were not sure how to deliver them without an accident.

Former Bayern head of scouting, Michael Reschke, once shared how such a metting (probably the first one) happened. Tuchel was in town and asked Reschke, if he was up for dinner. Michael Reschke went to Guardiola told him, "Tuchel is in town, we know each other and will be meeting for dinner. Nothing to do with you or your job, just wanted to tell you before you read some nonsense in the papers." Guardiola asked if he could tag along, mainly because he was impressed by how Tuchel had Mainz play. So the three of them were sitting at the restaurant table, and Tuchel and Guardiola were talking about plays of a Barca game that happened 2 or 3 years prior, about the players positioning and movement, and what they should have done, how the other player should've responded to that. And so they went. Reschke said, he basically checked out at some point, because he couldn't keep up with their discussion. Guardiola was also talking up Tuchel at the Bayern bosses as his successor. So I think Guardiola would disagree with the assessment of Tuchel being lucky to lace his shoes.

Anyway, came here for something else.

Can we all agree, that Jens Lehmann is a trainwreck of a person and a total moron on top of that, and that he really shouldn't get a job in football like ever again?

He accidently sent a whatsapp message to former International Dennis Aogo, who was working as a pundit at yesterday's CL game between City and PSG, inquiring whether Aogo was the channel's token black guy.

I guess the good thing is, he didn't use the N-word.

After Aogo published the message, Lehmann lost his advisor post and position on the supervisory board at Hertha Berlin. Lehmann said, he used poor wording. And what he meant was: Aogo is such a great and competent pundit, that he is driving viewer ratings up.

Probably an explainer is in order: The german word for token black guy is Quotenschwarzer, Quote in relation to tv means viewer rating. If you think that explanation is total BS, you are right.

[polishgenius]

1 hour ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

So I think Guardiola would disagree with the assessment of Tuchel being lucky to lace his shoes.

 

Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that in all three of his jobs so far Tuchel has achieved about what is expected and no more, and at both the really big jobs fallen out Mourinho-style with the squad and owners very fast, whereas Guardiola even though he is a little overrated what with never having to deal with building a squad up from lower positions, or a lack of budget, is one of the most successful managers in the history of the world.

[BigFatCoward]

7 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

 

Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that in all three of his jobs so far Tuchel has achieved about what is expected and no more, and at both the really big jobs fallen out Mourinho-style with the squad and owners very fast, whereas Guardiola even though he is a little overrated what with never having to deal with building a squad up from lower positions, or a lack of budget, is one of the most successful managers in the history of the world.

I would argue that at Bayern and City Pep has achieved less than/just about what is expected. So not sure that argument is valid. 

[polishgenius]

39 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

I would argue that at Bayern and City Pep has achieved less than/just about what is expected

 

Trophy wise, maybe, since not winning the CL again yet is a mark against, and he certainly made the Bayern team worse than it was under Heynckes.

But he keeps winning leagues by going on these incredible winning runs and walking off at the top, and not in France. Not even the most jaded glory-hunter is expecting  City to win fifteen games in a row.

And let's be fair that Heynckes team was surreal. For my money the best single football side I've seen in my life. Keeping that up was going to be hard, though them winning the CL again under Flick is a bad look for Pep.

 

Either way the point is Tuchel hasn't achieved anything close to that.

[MercenaryChef]

pep is amazing. yes. most of us could be handed the squads and funds he has had at barca, bayern and city and finished fairly well and gotten a trophy. 

but what sets him apart is the way he gets his teams to play. his passion for his methods are infectious and his teams are simply beautiful to watch play.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

I haven't noticed it too much before, but given the stakes of the game, not having fans in attendance is a bit of a buzz kill. I think the only sport hurt worse than soccer by it is tennis. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

4 hours ago, polishgenius said:

And let's be fair that Heynckes team was surreal. For my money the best single football side I've seen in my life. Keeping that up was going to be hard, though them winning the CL again under Flick is a bad look for Pep.

Heynckes was more successful with the squad, yes. But I thoroughly enjoyed Guardiola''s Bayern's  football more. Same way I prefer to watch a Guardiola team over a Klopp team. It's not a statement about the individual qualities of the managers, merely a judgement on football aesthetics.

Flick's Bayern and Guardiola's Bayern are different teams tho. There are a few players that were there during Guardiola's time (Neuer, Boateng, Lewandowski, Müller, Kimmich, Alaba and Martinez), but the managers who were in charge between Guardiola and Flick were not nearly as good at getting the best out of that squad as Guardiola. And winning the CL always involves a certain degree of luck, and there was still a more or less prime Barca with the MSN attacking line around. During Heynckes tripple run, happened to coincide with Tito Vilanova's cancer diagnosis, which looked like he had an impact on their team, understandbly. So a lot of stars alligned for Bayern that year.

Anyway, going back to Jens Lehmann.

Short trivia question: is there any other footballer/pundit that can claim the tripple crown of awfulness: Racism, Homophobia and Corona denialism?

[Consigliere]

Chelsea well worth their lead. Real have enjoyed the lion's share of possession but aside from Benzema's shot they've been completely toothless while Chelsea have been the far more dangerous side in the final third.

[polishgenius]

11 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

So a lot of stars alligned for Bayern that year.

 

That may be so, but I'm not convinced even the best Barca team would have had much of a chance. Like I say in my life time I consider that side the best I've seen, short-lived as it was. There wasn't an area of the pitch they could be exploited, it was flawlessly balanced.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

10 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

 

That may be so, but I'm not convinced even the best Barca team would have had much of a chance. Like I say in my life time I consider that side the best I've seen, short-lived as it was. There wasn't an area of the pitch they could be exploited, it was flawlessly balanced.

Footballing aesthetics. I still prefer the Barca teams built around Iniesta, Messi and Xavi. Heynckes Bayern was to some degree a rip off of Klopp's Dortmund, which annoyed him to no small extent. I think he was quoted saying something along the lines that Bayern does what the Chinese do, they see something that works, and then they just copy it.

This is really a bit down to what school of football do you prefer. The Cruyff school or the Sacchi school. Like I said, I find watching Guardiola teams more enjoyable.

[polishgenius]

4 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Heynckes Bayern was to some degree a rip off of Klopp's Dortmund,

 

 

Klopp can think what he thinks but he didn't invent counter-attacking football based of a press, which is about the extent of the similarity as I recall. And Bayern's press was less constant and high-up than Dortmund's-  the whole reason Bayern were so good is they started from being a ridiculously dominant defensive unit whereas Klopp's side then tended to prioritise the press over organisation in a manner which left them relying on individual defensive brilliance more, which is also what led to their occasional massive collapses. That Bayern team was all control: Dortmund was disruption and audacity.

Basically: I can't really see it.

 

 

But then I'm also not sure of the Sacchi/Cruyff divide. Wasn't Sacchi's whole thing that he brought Cruyff influences to the Italian game and popularised several things that are key to Pep's game too?

But in any case I never said anything about aesthetics. I said best. That Bayern team is the team most likely, in my view, to beat any other side I remember watching. Aesthetically they're fine, I enjoyed them, but it isn't the basis of my rating and they're not my favourite team.

[Consigliere]

Chelsea should have put this game to bed already. Could easily have been 3-0 up by now.

[Soylent Brown]

Klopp hasn't ever claimed to have invented it?

[polishgenius]

4 minutes ago, Soylent Brown said:

Klopp hasn't ever claimed to have invented it?

 

Not in as many words but complaining that a side as different to his as Heyncke's Bayern must have been ripping him off makes it sound like he thought he had claim to the idea.

Realistically he was just being peevish but it was a silly thing to say.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Anyway, that is now curtains.

Russian Petrodollars versus Middle Eastern Petrodollars.

And game for the football nerds.

[Raja]

Kante should teach Werner how to pass the ball in the box

[Mexal]

This Arsenal side is abysmal. Arteta has to go. They suck and are not getting better even a little.

[Raja]

I'd give Arteta next season, if we start poorly in the first 15 or so games, he will be gone. We didn't deserve to go through, tbh.

Clutching at straws a bit, but a season out of Europe might do us a little bit of good.

Imo, we need to sort out what the fuck we're trying to do with our midfield.

[polishgenius]

Arteta out, Moyes in