Law Enforcement and its abuse of power

[Fury Resurrected]

3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I’m willing to bet the trauma would mostly stem from her almost getting stabbed.

But I’m sure you’d tell her the incident before the cop shot wasn’t that extreme.

It was just a kitchen knife(honestly wtf did you get that tidbit of information idk), and wax on how it wasn’t for sure that her getting a stabbed would have killed her and how much of a travesty the cop prioritized her welfare over the person trying to stab her.

 

Have you been stabbed or had someone try to stab you? I have. I can assure you seeing someone shot to death in front of me would have traumatized me a lot more.

[Zorral]

4 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

You were not making an argument that the many unjustified police killings were somehow justified because of instance they were.

It's unclear what you are saying here.  I know what I was saying, which was my take-away from the language of your argument, your words, and its structure that those who are killed most of the time, who shouldn't be killed, is because sometimes, occasionally, statistically and every otherwise, is Justified, because of those very few times.  If you can't see that's your bias to give this justified murder a pass every godded time.

This  one time when a child had  knife, or is alleged to have a knife, when we still don't even know all of what happened that hour, cannot be swallowed as justified at this point in any kind of way, knowing what we know and what we see every fracking day by the cops.  This infuriates you for some weird reason.

You ignore context from era after after era of US History, and the history of US policing -- which is, btw, notoriously corrupt, to say it most mildly.  Shyte, they worked hard as hell to get Theodore Roosevelt to Albany and get him out of the NY police commissioner position because he went to war against this. Corruption is never divorced from violence and unjustified killing.

Also, please spell fascist correctly.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Fury Resurrected said:

Have you been stabbed or had someone try to stab you? I have. I can assure you seeing someone shot to death in front of me would have traumatized me a lot more.

I have not thankfully, and I’m sorry that happened to you.  But if I was or about to I would prefer police prioritize utilizing the option that gave me the best chance of survival.

3 hours ago, Rippounet said:

I already have (in the other thread), and I still second Zorral: for one case where lethal force was indeed optimal you will easily get several where it was really not. Therefore I think it is problematic to train police officers as if all cases are going to be such "life and death" situations.

No, but have them prepared to the few cases that can be and recognize some situations are going to be life and death.

3 hours ago, Rippounet said:

The problem we're having is that you focus on this case and ignore the broader implications. If use of lethal force is justified for a split-second decision that turns out to be correct, then it is equally justified when it turns out not to be. Because such an argument places such great responsibiity on the officers' shoulders, it also absolves them of wrongdoing in many situations.

 

The problem more is you’re insistence on only allowing for two unreasonable extremes which simply do not allow for any nuance.

Either we see all police utilizing lethal force as condemnable or not.

Which is absurd.

Even in the most peaceful nations on earth law enforcement at times are allowed to be given and firearms if there’s where going unarmed would needlessly increase the amount of innocent lives at risk.

 

3 hours ago, Rippounet said:

how can you trust the cops to make the right choice if you know for a fact their training revolves around shooting to kill?

It’s Shoot to stop.

It just so happens that the way in which to stop a violent criminal from killing others is to shoot them in the torso—which yes has a greater chance of killing them. In a addition to decreasing the chance of them killing someone else.

 

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

It's unclear what you are saying here

My point was that acknowledging that  some police killings are justified is not the same thing excusing every police killing ever.

You apparently recognize this when it’s convenient.

You defended the police officer who killed the q-nut on the sixth. You were not wrong to do that whilst still presumably condemning Chauvin for killing Floyd.

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

This  one time when a child had  knife, or is alleged to have a knife,

Attacking someone with a knife.

This is not a mere allegation given we have video of this.

I think you knew this.

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

when we still don't even know all of what happened that hour, cannot be swallowed as justified at this point in any kind of way, knowing what we know and what we see every fracking day by the cops.  This infuriates you for some weird reason.

We don’t need a minute by minute play down of the hour before the shooting before it could looked at as justified.

The police were called and told a group of a girls were trying to stab people.

Police officers came by the address the person who called had given them.

An officer saw a girl try to stab someone just out of the distance to be tasered and using his gun was in this instance the best method to potentially save another human being’s life.

What  detail in the last hour before the shooting would make this justified in your eyes?

Because it seems like despite all reason you’ve already decided that this shooting is unjustified—despite not knowing every detail of what had happened in the last hour.

Edited April 25, 2021 by Varysblackfyre321

[Zorral]

Why do you refuse to admit or see that what we are told we saw and happened may not have happened because most of the time cop killing of kids is not what we are told initially happened?  Which is why we here are all saying wait a few frackin' days, weeks, etc. of reporting and videos, etc. and find out what really happened. In the meantime all you say it was justified this cop killed a child to keep her from killing another child with a knife.

You DO NOT know what happened.  Until much more comes out.  Yet you are massively defending a white man killing a black girl with a gun fired 3 times to her torso.  That you keep bringing up where he shot as as justified use of force seems, well, prejudiced, doncha think?

If he was a crack shot as some are saying, if he had to shoot, which, remains incredibly iffy, why to kill? Why not to disable.?  HE WAS NOT EVEN HER TARGAT.  If that matters.  You are fixated on this cop killing this kid as justified.  Why?  Why does it matter so much to YOU that a big white male cop killed a young adolescent girl and should be applauded for it -- on the same day that Chauvin was declared guilty?

[BigFatCoward]

3 hours ago, Fury Resurrected said:

Have you been stabbed or had someone try to stab you? I have. I can assure you seeing someone shot to death in front of me would have traumatized me a lot more.

Complete opposite for me. Stab wounds are normally a lot more messy, though that might be because we have shite ammo in the uk.

Also the more personal nature of stabbing someone up close rather than shooting someone from afar I find a lot more upsetting. 

Edited April 25, 2021 by BigFatCoward

[Varysblackfyre321]

47 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Why do you refuse to admit or see that what we are told we saw and happened may not have happened because most of the time cop killing of kids is not what we are told initially happened? 

Again what detail would in your eyes make this shooting justified? What are you waiting for exactly that would change the context of the shooting we saw on video to a favorable or unfavorable light to the officer.

52 minutes ago, Zorral said:

You DO NOT know what happened.  Until much more comes out.  Yet you are massively defending a white man killing a black girl with a gun fired 3 times to her torso.  That you keep bringing up where he shot as as justified use of force seems, well, prejudiced, doncha think?

I know that this white cop saw this black girl try to stab another black girl and potentially kill her.

You act as if he needed to know every conceivable thing that could have lead up to that moment and that could know that.

That’s absurd.

And please. You’ve already condemned this man repeatedly. You’re not waiting, you’ve decided guilt. I’m guessing the second you heard about the story before any details were released young black girl killed by white cop.

59 minutes ago, Zorral said:

If he was a crack shot as some are saying, if he had to shoot, which, remains incredibly iffy, why to kill? Why not to disable.?  HE WAS NOT EVEN HER TARGAT.  If that matters.

No Bryant’s target would be the black girl in pink who was cowering from Bryant because of the whole stabbing possibility.

But even if he was, would that truly matter to you? Would you

And why the chest? Multiple times? Because that the most optimal to stopping Bryant from stabbing someone with a knife.

It doesn’t matter if he’s a “crack shot” trying for a limb would be more difficult to hit and doesn’t guarantee Bryant would stop.

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

You are fixated on this cop killing this kid as justified.  Why?  Why does it matter so much to YOU that a big white male cop killed a young adolescent girl and should be applauded for it -- on the same day that Chauvin was declared guilty?

Because I believe the shooting was justified.

There is a difference holding a knee to a man’s neck for 10 minutes after he’s already been handcuffed and on the ground and a cop shooting someone that was actively putting someone else’s life in danger through trying to stab them.

Its’ important realize there’s a difference.

[Varysblackfyre321]

13 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Complete opposite for me. Stab wounds are normally a lot more messy, though that might be because we have shite ammo in the uk.

Also the more personal nature of stabbing someone up close rather than shooting someone from afar I find a lot more upsetting. 

I do think American police tend to underestimate knife attacks due to them carrying firearms.

I remember this one training video where some were asked how they deal with someone attacking them with a knife.

Most officers said they’d just shoot them. They didn’t consider the possibility that they may not have time to draw their gun and fire before getting stabbed.

[DMC]

10 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Most officers said they’d just shoot them. They didn’t consider the possibility that they may not have time to draw their gun and fire before getting stabbed.

I'm sorry, I know this is a Very Serious Thread, but I can't help but be reminded here of the 21 foot rule...

 

[Fury Resurrected]

56 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Complete opposite for me. Stab wounds are normally a lot more messy, though that might be because we have shite ammo in the uk.

Also the more personal nature of stabbing someone up close rather than shooting someone from afar I find a lot more upsetting. 

In my experience, seeing someone else come to great harm or death in front of me is much more harrowing than experiencing it myself- even when I have been the one inflicting it in self defense. I see blood all day every day at work. Body fluids don’t bother me. Seeing a person become a body bothers me.

[Rippounet]

14 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The problem more is you’re insistence on only allowing for two unreasonable extremes which simply do not allow for any nuance.
Either we see all police utilizing lethal force as condemnable or not.
Which is absurd.

That's not exactly my position though. What I'm saying is not "Lethal force can never be justified" but "How do we make sure that there are fewer situations where lethal force is optimal/justified in the future?".

[Martell Spy]

12 hours ago, DMC said:

I'm sorry, I know this is a Very Serious Thread, but I can't help but be reminded here of the 21 foot rule...

 

I think we can all agree that when the perp has a f'ing rocket launcher that the shooting is justified.

[Fez]

NBC just did a wide-ranging national US poll, and among other things asked about current opinions of the police. I'm posting it just as a reminder of the lens that most Americans have: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/20690434-210098-nbc-news-april-poll-4-25-21-release

Quote

 

Q6 Now I'm going to read you the names of several public figures, groups, and organizations and I'd like you to rate  your feelings toward each one as very positive, somewhat positive, neutral, somewhat negative, or very negative. If you don't know the name, please just say so

 

Police and law enforcement agencies

Very Positive: 32%

Somewhat Positive: 26%

Neutral: 17%

Somewhat Negative: 14%

Very Negative: 10%

Not Sure: 1%

 

That's a 58-24 positive opinion. And it goes to show that while certain incidents, like the murder of George Floyd, can galvanize people; overall there is majority support for the current system.

I'll also note that this same poll asked about Trump, and found opinion of him to be at 32-55. This is not some fluky conservative sample.

[Rippounet]

3 hours ago, Fez said:

That's a 58-24 positive opinion. And it goes to show that while certain incidents, like the murder of George Floyd, can galvanize people; overall there is majority support for the current system.

It shows nothing of the sort. Of course people will have a rather positive view of an institution that is necessary for society ; that says nothing about their opinion of the way that institution works at one given time.
Your comparison with Trump's popularity shows that you either don't understand polling or are deliberately trying to mislead: obviously the correct comparison would be between the police and the presidency.

Because I seriously doubt that these polls are somehow all wrong: Nine out of 10 Americans say racism and police brutality are problems, poll finds, AP-NORC poll: Sweeping change in US views of police violence, Confidence in Police Is at Record Low, Gallup Survey Finds.

But in all honesty, if you have to start resorting to such obviously fallacious arguments to defend your position, it says a great deal about said position.

[Fez]

45 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

It shows nothing of the sort. Of course people will have a rather positive view of an institution that is necessary for society ; that says nothing about their opinion of the way that institution works at one given time.
Your comparison with Trump's popularity shows that you either don't understand polling or are deliberately trying to mislead: obviously the correct comparison would be between the police and the presidency.

Because I seriously doubt that these polls are somehow all wrong: Nine out of 10 Americans say racism and police brutality are problems, poll finds, AP-NORC poll: Sweeping change in US views of police violence, Confidence in Police Is at Record Low, Gallup Survey Finds.

But in all honesty, if you have to start resorting to such obviously fallacious arguments to defend your position, it says a great deal about said position.

Obviously you don't understand my point. Maybe you should up your reading comprehension before trying to attack. I mention Trump because if the survey found he had 50% or 60% approval, or anything like that, we would know that the sample was flawed and it can be ignored. However, because the survey found approval around where we'd expect, maybe even a bit lower than expected, we know that the survey is representative of the US. And therefore its findings are representative of the US.

Also, the poll you cite is asking a different question. And it shows that people do want reforms for sure. However, the overall favorability of the police shows that anyone talking about radical ideas like abolishing the police (which you do see on Twitter a fair bit) is going to run into some major issues.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

50 minutes ago, Leap said:

Unsure if anyone has posted this yet, but 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56897186

These people are utterly depraved. I am curious as to how the lawyer got that footage though. Maybe another police officer leaked it?

Those are some sick individuals. 

[Rippounet]

20 hours ago, Fez said:

Obviously you don't understand my point.

I think I understand your attempt to equate criticism of police training/procedures with an opposition to the very existence of police just fine, thank you very much.

[Week]

Apparently the footage shows multiple cops shooting into a car while Andrew Brown Jr. had his hands on the steering wheel. Killed by a shot to the back of his head. I believe 10 officers have already been fired or put on leave as a result.

[BigFatCoward]

They have literally learned nothing after last year have they? 

[Week]

Going back to last summer, documentary work on when Louisville police conducted a "power play" on peaceful streets which resulted in the assault of an innocent family and the death of a beloved member of the community.

https://twitter.com/robferdman/status/1387053526459707396

Reminder of what happens when the police riot, typically in response to protests of police brutality. (Breonna Taylor's murder in this instance). A vicious cycle that feels like we're on our way into after events in Albany, Brooklyn Center, NC, etc.

[Fez]

3 hours ago, Rippounet said:

I think I understand your attempt to equate criticism of police training/procedures with an opposition to the very existence of police just fine, thank you very much.

Nope. Try again.

I literally didn't say anything about police training.