Law Enforcement and its abuse of power

[Larry of the Lawn]

3 minutes ago, Wade1865 said:

Larry of the Lake -- I found this thoughtful (in subtext). The common view of Hearts and Minds as a theory is that pacification can be achieved through influence; however, in practice, it's most usefully applied by way of coercion and violence. Thus, BLM success would have been more effective through a practical (Necks and Guts) application.

That question I asked was both sarcastic and rhetorical.  

Eta: it was intended to show how ridiculous it is to demand the LGBTQ community to let cops do performative allyship for PR while still treating LGBTQ individuals like shit.  

Edited August 22, 2022 by Larry of the Lake

[Wade1865]

1 minute ago, Larry of the Lake said:

That question I asked was both sarcastic and rhetorical.  

Larry of the Lake -- I believe you. My answer wasn't sarcastic or rhetorical.

[Wade1865]

18 hours ago, Week said:

What makes someone willing and capable of beating another person?

Week -- in the case of law enforcement, authority and training.

[Kalbear]

7 minutes ago, Wade1865 said:

Week -- in the case of law enforcement, authority and training.

Hah, no. That'd be what you need to avoid being willing and capable of beating another person.

Being willing and capable to be inhuman to others is just stock material of humans. Comes with the standard package. Some more than others, of course, and those who like that sort of thing tend to gravitate towards those positions, but this is just another thing humans do to each other. 

[Wade1865]

3 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

Hah, no. That'd be what you need to avoid being willing and capable of beating another person.

Being willing and capable to be inhuman to others is just stock material of humans. Comes with the standard package. Some more than others, of course, and those who like that sort of thing tend to gravitate towards those positions, but this is just another thing humans do to each other. 

KalVsWade -- no, authority and training applies to all law enforcers, moderated by their individual principles. In fact, these concepts reinforce how frequently it's used. For example, Derek Chauvin was granted both, and he exploited it during a killing, assuming he would not experience backlash.

On violence being inherent to humanity, yes, of course. Politicians realized this since the beginning of civilization. And they focused the use of violence, to achieve their goals, by granting authority and providing training (among other things).

[James Arryn]

Agree that most people go into the force projection industry because it reflects their personality. Also it pays pretty well to begin with for a job requiring so little training, but it plateaus quickly, leading to more corruption and discontent. Every friend I had who went into the police had that kind of personality, call it a football mentality, and everyone of them became 100 times more like that after they were cops. Us vs. Them, on steroids, 24/7, with side orders of racism and other phobias, all built on a sense of knowing the Real Truth that the rest of us get to hide from. I find it almost impossible to conceive of an organization built on that kind of thinking not being prone to systemic abuses of power. 

[Zorral]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/aug/28/the-real-jane-tennison-reveals-ugly-truth-behind-tv-police-drama-prime-suspect

Quote

 

.... Earlier this year, the Met’s first female commissioner, Dame Cressida Dick, whom Malton admires, resigned. A few months later, the Met was placed in “special measures” following a series of scandals, some of them stretching back for many years. “When you put up those macho adverts to attract people into the police, there will inevitably be a number of people joining to be adrenaline-pumping and action-oriented. Part of the police’s job is that kind of action, but most of it isn’t.

“Somehow, some of these cultures have now gone underground into WhatsApp groups. Wayne Couzens [the officer jailed for life for murdering Sarah Everard] was known as ‘the rapist’. Why did he have that reputation? It can only be from what he says to his colleagues, what people call ‘banter’.

“When I joined, there was misogyny, racism, homophobia. Fast forward to 2022 and the commissioner losing her job on the basis of the same – misogyny, racism and homophobia. There have been seven commissioners in that time, and yet she’s the one to go,” Malton notes.

“They are judged extremely harshly,” she says of the police today, who she thinks are unfairly singled out for criticism. “How effective have the police and crime commissioners been? Who measures them? Most of them are Conservative so where is their true loyalty? To the public they represent or their political party? I don’t know what they bring to the table. Why aren’t they being held responsible for the chronically low detection rates, which are embarrassing – my detection rates were 25 per cent!

“But I feel now that the police have lost their connection with the public, not least because half the police stations in the country have been sold off. Almost all the ones I worked in have gone.” ....

 

 

[A wilding]

Sorry, but the implication that Cressida Dick was forced out because she was a lesbian is complete nonsense,

Nor is she even the first Met Commissioner whose resignation, after a long string of issues, was finally forced when the mayor of London publicly lost confidence in them.

Edit: she is absolutely right about the Police and Crime Commissioners though. They are a mostly a waste of space, having been created by Cameron as sinecures so as to increase his powers of patronage,

Edited September 5, 2022 by A wilding

[Spockydog]

14 hours ago, Zorral said:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/aug/28/the-real-jane-tennison-reveals-ugly-truth-behind-tv-police-drama-prime-suspect

 

Horseshit. She went because she was terrible at her job, as well as her continued refusal to acknowledge the absolutely dire state of the police force she was supposed to be overseeing.

Dreadful fucking woman (who, incidentally, was also the commander who greenlit the murder, and the subsequent smearing, of Jean Charles de Menezez). The fact that she was responsible for what is arguably the Met's most shameful moment, yet was allowed to rise to the top of the organization, tells you all you need to know about the Metropolitan Police.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Spockydog

[Zorral]

Well, I didn't know any of that.  Is it true though?  OTOH, if it is, goes to show what rot the copshops are.  But are you also saying she never was subjected to any of the horribly sexist abuse she says she was?

[Spockydog]

54 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Well, I didn't know any of that.  Is it true though?  OTOH, if it is, goes to show what rot the copshops are.  But are you also saying she never was subjected to any of the horribly sexist abuse she says she was?

Her involvement in the De Menezes affair is a matter of public record. As are the lies that were told in an attempt to justify his murder. 

And yes, on the way up, she was probably subjected to all kinds of horrific abuse from her male colleagues. Which makes her refusal to acknowledge the systematic failings of the force even more damning. 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Spockydog

[A wilding]

56 minutes ago, Zorral said:

But are you also saying she never was subjected to any of the horribly sexist abuse she says she was?

I would not want to swear to that, Though Mrs W apparently had no idea that she was a lesbian until I mentioned it shortly after she quit, for whatever that is worth.

However her actions over the last year or so of her reign more than justified her defenestration. She probably hung on for as long as she did only because Patel found it useful to keep someone in the role who knew that one word from Patel would finish her off. Not to mention that the Jean Charles de Menezes fiasco should have prevented her ever being given the job in the first place.

[BigFatCoward]

7 hours ago, Spockydog said:

Horseshit. She went because she was terrible at her job.

The fact that she was responsible for what is arguably the Met's most shameful moment

True, and yet the 2nd best commissioner I've served under, what does that tell you? 

Come on, there are do many to chose from. Blair Peach has got to be number 1 on any list. 

Edited September 5, 2022 by BigFatCoward

[Maltaran]

7 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

True, and yet the 2nd best commissioner I've served under, what does that tell you? 

That you’d be better than any of them?

[BigFatCoward]

1 hour ago, Maltaran said:

That you’d be better than any of them?

Not good, just better? Seems an insultingly low bar. 

[Zorral]

3 hours ago, Spockydog said:

the De Menezes affair

You know I'm no a UKer, so I've never heard of it.  Just as you surely haven't heard of countless horrible crimes committed by cops and other institutional types here in the USA, which are / were covered up / or judged 'not guilty.'  Not to mention the numerous crimes (nowhere near enough) which ended up in courts and financial and prison time reparations had to be made, that you never heard of. 

[Derfel Cadarn]

12 minutes ago, Zorral said:

You know I'm no a UKer, so I've never heard of it.  Just as you surely haven't heard of countless horrible crimes committed by cops and other institutional types here in the USA, which are / were covered up / or judged 'not guilty.'  Not to mention the numerous crimes (nowhere near enough) which ended up in courts and financial and prison time reparations had to be made, that you never heard of. 

It was mentioned prominently on this forum pretty much as it happened, with a lot of rumour and wrong information. Started off as a middle-eastern suicide bomber shot on the underground fleeing police; turned out to be an innocent Brazilian electrician.

[Zorral]

So you remember every single thing posted on this forum? Especially event that aren't directly involving your own neighborhood/country?  When SO MUCH beyond outrageous goes on all the time?  For an example, I can't even recall Hurricane Ida, which did so much damage right here last year at this time, including drowning a lot of people in their apartments.  I had to think really hard about it to pull it up. Not to mention the nearly daily criminal actions and coverups in this city by the NYPD.  The UK isn't the center of the world now, taking all precedence about everything (nor is the USA).

Edited September 5, 2022 by Zorral

[kiko]

It was news all over the world. But to be honest, I didn't know that she was involved.

[Derfel Cadarn]

45 minutes ago, Zorral said:

So you remember every single thing posted on this forum? Especially event that aren't directly involving your own neighborhood/country?  When SO MUCH beyond outrageous goes on all the time?  For an example, I can't even recall Hurricane Ida, which did so much damage right here last year at this time, including drowning a lot of people in their apartments.  I had to think really hard about it to pull it up. Not to mention the nearly daily criminal actions and coverups in this city by the NYPD.  The UK isn't the center of the world now, taking all precedence about everything (nor is the USA).

Itbwas a “holy shit terrorism suicide bomber!!!!” Thread. If people remember the rolling hills of Turkey and OsRavan getting punked over Wheel of Time (Lying liars who lie!), then it might linger