Law Enforcement and its abuse of power

[Varysblackfyre321]

5 hours ago, James Arryn said:

Can we keep some perspective and acknowledge that they also have maybe the worst job

I disagree but I think I can see why someone could arrive ar the opposite conclusion,

5 hours ago, James Arryn said:

see the worst of humanity, and are less trained than hairdressers. It’s as much the culture and shitshow day to day experience that produces the ‘worst people’ as the kind of people who take the job for the wrong reasons.

 I think that’s fair.

[BigFatCoward]

10 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Or thoroughly assimilated because they’d want friends and their potential friend group will be full of scum. 40% of cops freely admit to beating their spouse. I imagine at least another 10-15% are ashamed enough or at least smart enough to keep quiet.’

Oh really? I found 2 surveys that report roughly this figure. The first  survey is 40 years old and 40% didn't admit to beating their spouse, and only 10% of spouses said they were physically abused (not beaten). It doesn't read well regardless but don't be making shit up and using well out of date surveys. 

 

Ten percent of the spouses reported being physically abused by their mates at least once; the same percentage claim that their children were physically  abused. The officers were asked a less direct question, that is, if they had ever gotten out of control and behaved violently against their spouse and children in the last six months.  We did not define the type of violence. Thus, violence could have been interpreted as verbal or physical threats or actual physical abuse

Or are you referring to this report over 30 years old, that showed male officers are more likely to be victims than suspects for domestic violence? 

“28% of male officers report inflicting either “minor or severe” violence on their spouse and 33% report receiving minor or severe violence from their wives; 33% of wives say they inflicted minor or severe violence on their spouses, and 25% of police wives say they have received minor or severe violence.  What is noteworthy is that both male officers and wives’ reports agree that wives are a little more likely to commit any violence than are the officers.

Edited May 31, 2023 by BigFatCoward

[Varysblackfyre321]

7 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

Oh really? I found 2 surveys that report roughly this figure. The first  survey is 40 years old and 40% didn't admit to beating their spouse, and only 10% of spouses said they were physically abused (not beaten). It doesn't read well regardless but don't be making shit up and using well out of date surveys. 

 

Ten percent of the spouses reported being physically abused by their mates at least once; the same percentage claim that their children were physically  abused. The officers were asked a less direct question, that is, if they had ever gotten out of control and behaved violently against their spouse and children in the last six months.  We did not define the type of violence. Thus, violence could have been interpreted as verbal or physical threats or actual physical abuse

Or are you referring to this report over 30 years old, that showed male officers are more likely to be victims than suspects for domestic violence? 

“28% of male officers report inflicting either “minor or severe” violence on their spouse and 33% report receiving minor or severe violence from their wives; 33% of wives say they inflicted minor or severe violence on their spouses, and 25% of police wives say they have received minor or severe violence.  What is noteworthy is that both male officers and wives’ reports agree that wives are a little more likely to commit any violence than are the officers.

Goddamnit I’ve let my own biases get me to readily accept misinformation and spread it around. 
 Thanks for the correction.

[BigFatCoward]

18 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Goddamnit I’ve let my own biases get me to readily accept misinformation and spread it around. 
 Thanks for the correction.

This is the Internet. Never apologise, never admit you're wrong. 

[Week]

"Just a couple of bad apples"

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

On 5/31/2023 at 1:07 PM, BigFatCoward said:

This is the Internet. Never apologise, never admit you're wrong. 

I always apologize and I’ll always admit when I am wrong.  Especially on the internet…

[Varysblackfyre321]

Should police officers be included at pride?I’m a shaky no so if anyone has any argument as to why they should I’m open.

[Argonath Diver]

21 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Should police officers be included at pride?I’m a shaky no so if anyone has any argument as to why they should I’m open.

Any officers keeping the peace during Pride celebrations should all wear short shorts Lt Dangle style. Honestly it'd be a huge hit and also piss off right wingers.

[Darzin]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Should police officers be included at pride?I’m a shaky no so if anyone has any argument as to why they should I’m open.

Yes if we excluded every institution that used to oppress the LGBT community  organizations at pride would basically be limited to gay bars and a few hippies. Cops at pride is a good thing, it shows that those with alternative sexualities have been excepted into the fold of civil society. If if you expect the cops to investigate hate crimes and protect the LGBT community you should welcome them at pride. The desire to exclude them comes  from the fact that the cops were the "baddies" at stonewall but this feeds into a kind of leftist myopia were the cops must always be the agents of heteronormativity and the gays must always be outsiders against the state. It's telling that no one ever argues that politicians shouldn't be at pride despite all they have done historically to harm LGBT people。

[Zorral]

8 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Should police officers be included at pride?I’m a shaky no so if anyone has any argument as to why they should I’m open.

As there are gay police, yes.

In the meantime this has happened here:

Inside the Turmoil That Led N.Y.P.D.’s Commissioner to Walk Away
Keechant Sewell walked into Mayor Eric Adams’s office unannounced on Monday and told him she would be leaving. No one but her closest aides saw it coming.

"“She was gradually being stripped of power,” he said. “Now they had taken the power to make the most basic of decisions.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/13/nyregion/keechant-sewell-nypd-resignation.html

Quote

 

.... However, Ms. Sewell said nothing about her own frustrations. Only a few of her closest aides had known she would be announcing her resignation, according to people with knowledge of the commissioner’s plans.

Over the past year, rumors had swirled that other appointees in the department were undermining her authority, specifically Philip Banks III, the deputy mayor of public safety, and Timothy Pearson, a senior adviser to Mr. Adams, according to several police and City Hall officials. And in recent days, her relationship with Mr. Adams appeared to reach a breaking point, according to a high-ranking City Hall official.

Ms. Sewell declined to comment, according to a department spokesman. Deputy Mayor Banks said in a text that any suggestion of meddling was “untruthful gossip” and to call him for comment “when you get a quote from Commissioner Sewell.”

Last month, Ms. Sewell had moved to strip Jeffrey Maddrey, the highest-ranking uniformed officer and a close associate of Mr. Adams, of 10 vacation days, after he interfered with the arrest of a retired officer who chased three boys while he was armed.

Around the same time, she was told she could not make discretionary promotions even at the lower levels of the department without getting clearance from the Adams administration, said Kenneth Corey, the former chief of the department, who worked under Ms. Sewell until he retired in November.

“She was gradually being stripped of power,” he said. “Now they had taken the power to make the most basic of decisions.”

That kind of meddling did not happen in prior administrations, said Mr. Corey, who praised Ms. Sewell as an “incredibly intelligent” commissioner who acted with “honor and integrity.”

Mr. Corey, who said he had been briefed by highly placed officials about the recent inner workings of the department, said that Ms. Sewell’s pending departure had “devastated” and angered many officers.

“They wonder what’s next,” he said. ....

 

 "... Banks was Adams’ first choice for police commissioner, but thinks the mayor knew the stigma of Banks’ role in a 2014 federal corruption probe would not have sat well with the press or the public." 

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/27/nyregion/philip-banks-corruption-investigation.html

In the meantime the cops just don't work.  They don't even bother shutting down all the illegal pot shops that sell moldy weed, with 3 - 4 on the same block even.  But if they see a poor Black guy sitting on a bench with a beer, a whole armed posse of 'em roll up and heroically arrest him.

 

[DMC]

As I understand it the issue with police officers participating in pride events is in an official capacity/wearing uniform.  In that respect, they're serving as a representative/symbol of the institution.  I don't have have a strong opinion on that either way, but they certainly should be allowed to participate in plain clothes.

[Week]

A lot in this thread from the DOJ report on the Minneapolis Police Department. My god.

$60M in police brutality settlement payments?? The city* is funding the abuse of it's own citizens to an unbelievable degree.

*True for many (most?) of the US

[Zorral]

The NYT has a long report on the above.

I suppose too, we all have heard 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/05/25/fairfax-county-police-shooting-body-cam-footage-released/

and stuff like this all the time, even in Fairfax, VA:

 

[SeanF]

On 5/31/2023 at 2:42 AM, James Arryn said:

Can we keep some perspective and acknowledge that they also have maybe the worst job, see the worst of humanity, and are less trained than hairdressers. It’s as much the culture and shitshow day to day experience that produces the ‘worst people’ as the kind of people who take the job for the wrong reasons.

I’ve got a friend who prosecutes very serious offences (rape, GBH, the occasional murder) who says it is just so easy to despair of humanity, given how cruel, vicious, and manipulative so many of the defendants are.

I suspect a lot of police experience the same.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 6/14/2023 at 2:50 AM, Darzin said:

Yes if we excluded every institution that used to oppress the LGBT community  organizations at pride would basically be limited to gay bars and a few hippies.

Not really used to though—like it’s not hard to find stories of cops aiding people or standing by people who actively attacking lgbt people or allies at parades, demonstrations, protests.

On 6/14/2023 at 2:50 AM, Darzin said:

Cops at pride is a good thing, it shows that those with alternative sexualities have been excepted into the fold of civil society.

Perhaps—A major corporation sponsorship an event can cement in the public zeitgeist that queerness is normal and shouldn’t be controversial. 
 

 

On 6/14/2023 at 2:50 AM, Darzin said:

If if you expect the cops to investigate hate crimes and protect the LGBT community you should welcome them at pride.

I don’t and I genuinely don’t think the average cop who’d show a dereliction of duty because the victim of a crime is queer is going to be moved tremendously by one of their peers participating at pride.

 

On 6/14/2023 at 2:50 AM, Darzin said:

The desire to exclude them comes  from the fact that the cops were the "baddies" at stonewall but this feeds into a kind of leftist myopia were the cops must always be the agents of heteronormativity and the gays must always be outsiders against the state

We’ll still the baddies a lot of times.
Though to the spirit of your point I won’t deny that’s the rational for some who’d propose it.

Last year I did have your position and used similar arguments.

What caused me pause was learning about Philly prides presents conduct in 2021 in trying to flatter police

https://www.phillymag.com/news/2021/06/14/philly-pride-presents-boycott/
 

Which was atrocious with their presentation of cops as being victims of stonewall, highlighting the fact two of the cops were women, and transphobic dog whistles through referring to trans women who rioted as uniformly as men in dresses. 
It feels like they were trying begin a process of cutting off a very particular subsection of the gay community, clean(possibly white), moderate, maybe even a bit conservative on economic and social issues from the rest queer community they find disgusting or they think can secure their own place by attacking.

 I guess my worry is allowing uniformed officers at pride in order to try please more conservative individuals who like cops or are cops alienating groups who are concerned with things police brutality on racial minorities.

I fear the loss of intersectionality is what I’m trying to get across. 

I don’t know perhaps I’m being throwing the baby off with the bath water.

[Rippounet]

Lots of urban riots in France after a youngster (17 yo) was killed by the police.

Quote

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66049705

At least 150 people have been arrested across France on a second night of mass unrest over Tuesday's fatal shooting of a 17-year-old boy by police near Paris during a traffic check.
Town halls, schools and police stations were set on fire. President Emmanuel Macron said this was "unjustifiable".
The police officer who opened fire is now under formal investigation for voluntary homicide.
Nahel M was shot at point-blank range as he drove away from police.
French prosecutors argue that the use of a firearm was not legally justified.

[...]

Nahel, who a neighbour says came from a French-Algerian family, is the second person this year in France to have been killed in a police shooting during a traffic stop. Last year, a record 13 people died in this way.

Rights groups have criticised a 2017 law change which broadened the framework for when officers can use firearms.

Citing official statistics, Le Monde newspaper reported that the annual number of police shootings at moving vehicles has consistently been higher since the change.

Campaigner Rokhaya Diallo told BFMTV that more shots fired meant a higher risk of being hit, especially for people of colour.

Reuters news agency found that a majority of victims of lethal police shootings during traffic stops since 2017 were black or Arab.

The deeper problem isn't even the police killing young people of color, but the general neglect of the suburbs ("cités") where minorities tend to live. That is why people are rioting: these are kids who start with very few opportunities in life, and who are now being assaulted or killed by the police on a regular basis for petty crimes they have or might have committed.

It wasn't always like that. Just a few decades ago, thanks to fucking research, what was necessary to prevent crime or unrest was well understood. Solid social programs were in place in every single neighborhood that might be considered impoverished (regardless of racial questions btw). We're not just talking social workers, but also subsidies and community youth club and arts centers (the celebrated "MJC") to help develop local communities.
It was a success. Crime rates were low and steady, violence rare, and social mobility remained high.
Then, the right was elected and one of the first things they did was to cut the budgets for all these programs. Last time I set foot in an MJC (about 20 years ago) the place was empty save for a few teenagers smoking pot in the basement.
Of course, the lack of social programs had predictable consequences: crime rates went up, with increasingly dangerous traffics developing (not just pot, but hard drugs, weapons... etc) and religious radicalism taking root. The suburbs were progressively associated with chaos, and local police was replaced with national police with guns and - since 2017- liberty to use them. Racism exploded, and the far-right is now fantasizing about sending the army to the suburbs to quash the riots.

Right-wing ideas are literally a form of cancer.

[BigFatCoward]

The sheriff's deputy on trial for not running into an active shooter situation, age 60, by himself, with a sidearm against someone with automatic weapons is a disgrace.  

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65994768

[BigFatCoward]

15 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Lots of urban riots in France after a youngster (17 yo) was killed by the police.

The deeper problem isn't even the police killing young people of color, but the general neglect of the suburbs ("cités") where minorities tend to live. That is why people are rioting: these are kids who start with very few opportunities in life, and who are now being assaulted or killed by the police on a regular basis for petty crimes they have or might have committed.

It wasn't always like that. Just a few decades ago, thanks to fucking research, what was necessary to prevent crime or unrest was well understood. Solid social programs were in place in every single neighborhood that might be considered impoverished (regardless of racial questions btw). We're not just talking social workers, but also subsidies and community youth club and arts centers (the celebrated "MJC") to help develop local communities.
It was a success. Crime rates were low and steady, violence rare, and social mobility remained high.
Then, the right was elected and one of the first things they did was to cut the budgets for all these programs. Last time I set foot in an MJC (about 20 years ago) the place was empty save for a few teenagers smoking pot in the basement.
Of course, the lack of social programs had predictable consequences: crime rates went up, with increasingly dangerous traffics developing (not just pot, but hard drugs, weapons... etc) and religious radicalism taking root. The suburbs were progressively associated with chaos, and local police was replaced with national police with guns and - since 2017- liberty to use them. Racism exploded, and the far-right is now fantasizing about sending the army to the suburbs to quash the riots.

Right-wing ideas are literally a form of cancer.

I've seen the video, and it appears there is a better than average chance that the idiot driving into the officers arm caused the discharge.  If the shooting actually happened once the car was away from the officer (which isn't clear from what I've seen but should be fully verifiable by the entry point) then that's a different story. 

[Week]

39 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

The sheriff's deputy on trial for not running into an active shooter situation, age 60, by himself, with a sidearm against someone with automatic weapons is a disgrace.  

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65994768

One might think that this would be the type of case to convince the US' largest legal violent gang coalition to advocate for gun regulations... But nah.

[Rippounet]

46 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

I've seen the video, and it appears there is a better than average chance that the idiot driving into the officers arm caused the discharge.

The thought occurred to me, but the question is also why was the kid being held at gunpoint for a minor traffic violation to begin with. And one of the answers is that the 2017 law changed the rules for the use of firearms by the police, who are now quick to draw their guns, even in situations when they are unnecessary.
A bit of perspective here: this was a 17 year old kid behind the wheel of an average car. The officers in the video are bikers, and part of their job is precisely to catch people in cars...
So what led them their guns after a routine traffic stop? Even assuming the kid was uncollaborative (probably terrified, possibly defiant), was there anything he could have said or done that justified placing him at gunpoint?
To be clear: this ain't the US. The police aren't supposed to place you at gunpoint just because they can. Did that kid do or say anything that made him seem like a dangerous criminal, or did he just look like someone who might be?

Edit: fuck, I realized those guys weren't even gendarmes, but regular police.
It explains a great deal. I had friends in the police some years ago, and they always said police bikers were cowboys. They just don't get enough training for what they do compared to the gendarmes with the same job.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Rippounet