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Ser Scot A Ellison

Law Enforcement and its abuse of power

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Welcome to march out of uniform. Not welcome to provide "security". The private security to be hired is planned to be trained in best practices for interacting with LGBTQ and minority communities including de-escalation training. (...you know, what police ought to do)

The NYPD should view this as an indictment of their ability, and trust, to "protect and serve" instead whining about being excluded.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/nyc-pride-parade-bans-police-gay-officers-disheartened-n1267565

NYC Pride parade bans police; Gay officers 'disheartened'”

I find this something that could only likely satisfy those who are the most anti-cop whilst doing more damage than good. 
Having members of law-enforcement solidarity with a typically maligned group is a good thing.

Showing gay men could be in what are looked at as masculine professions is a good and needed thing.

I think you'll find that a significant number of LGBT+ people are in the anti-cop group, with good reason.

Also note that this doesn't ban gay people who happen to be cops, there'd really be no way to tell, but cops in uniform.

Edited by TrueMetis

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, baxus said:

Not all cops are bad but when bad cops do bad things, "good" cops often stay silent which makes them bad cops at least for a while.

Ah, I would not call those cops good. However for the ones who do not stay silent I think it’s unfair and unproductive to pretend that they are.

 

4 hours ago, MercenaryChef said:

and seriously,  fuck the police. unless we are talking sting, stewart Copeland and andy summers. those guys are alright in my book.

I'm saying Not all cops are bad and it’s really unreasonable to treat them the same because fuck cops.

This is the exact opposite unreasonable extreme position of thinking cops are heroes for their jobs and should be looked at as such always. 

5 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

We saw videos last summer of cops marching with BLM protestors and then 20 minutes later kettling them, pepper spraying them, and arresting them.  Trust is earned.

Really all those same exact cops who were marching with BLM(by marching with I don’t mean they were just to keep order or escort them) in support and proceeded to arrest them?

4 hours ago, Week said:

I've said it before, Police need to reckon with the fact that they are not liked or trusted after years of visibly brutalizing innocent people. That trust has to be earned again after public accountability. 

This isn’t what most polling suggests quite frankly.

They’ve become less trusted and admired by the public.

the protests last summer did temporarily generate more anti-law enforcement sentiment before returning to what it was prior to Floyd’s death.

https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/americans-trust-law-enforcement-desire-protect-law-and-order-rise

 

3 hours ago, Fez said:

Now at this point it seems like that battle has been won.

Not really. It’s become far more socially acceptable to be than it was in the past but the connotation on what being gay entails are still rather strong.

For example; look at how AGOT chose to depict Renly and Loras. And compare them to how they’re depicted in the books. They in the show fit more in line with the stereotypes of gay men. In the show Renly’s discomforted at the sight of blood, and Loras never gets a chance to do anything brave. 

3 hours ago, Fez said:

So if the vast majority of participants aren't comfortable with gay cops being there, it probably doesn't hurt the social movement for them to be excluded.

I don't think there's been a poll of the participants. The organizers could be projecting their own biases to a degree.
 

3 hours ago, karaddin said:

I highly doubt the gay cops are being banned from the march, they're being banned from marching *as cops*.

I find this to have no worthwhile distinction.
I can easily go “I’m not banning gay customers. Just people who happen to be gay in my store.” 
It's telling these men if they want to be apart of their community that they have to be ashamed and hide what they are when they're participating in such events.
 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I find this to have no worthwhile distinction.

I can easily go “I’m not banning gay customers. Just people who happen to be gay in my store.” 
It's telling these men if they want to be apart of their community that they have to be ashamed and hide what they are when they're participating in such events.
 

It's absolutely a worthwhile distinction, cop is not an identity, it's a job. And if you treat cop as anything like an identity you are the absolute last person that should be a cop. Seriously if cop is "what they are" that's a massive red flag.

Edited by TrueMetis

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I find this to have no worthwhile distinction.

I can easily go “I’m not banning gay customers. Just people who happen to be gay in my store.” 
It's telling these men if they want to be apart of their community that they have to be ashamed and hide what they are when they're participating in such events.
 

They are being asked to not wear the uniform of their job that has attacked, brutalized, and disrespected their community.

Being a cop is not an identity - it's a job, a choice.

Eta- :ninja:'d lol

Edited by Week

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I can’t speak for the LGBTQA community, but I have been told by many members of it that cops are not welcome at Pride in their professional capacity or in uniform for these reasons-

—LGBTQA people, those of color and those who are trans specifically, are at greater risk for being victims of police violence than their straight or cis or white counterparts. Many attendees would feel less safe with police presence.

-Pride commemorates Stonewall, wherein police were an antagonist against the community. It is not historically appropriate to bring the uniform into that celebration.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, TrueMetis said:

It's absolutely a worthwhile distinction, cop is not an identity, it's a job. And if you treat cop as anything like an identity you are the absolute last person that should be a cop. Seriously if cop is "what they are" that's a massive red flag.

No it really isn’t.

The core message is the same: we don’t want you here.

The fact the organizers can’t literally do a background check for everyone who attends the match or planning to doesn’t alter that message.

And I don’t think it’s a message that will help anyone in any meaningful extent.


 

1 hour ago, Week said:

They are being asked to not wear the uniform of their job that has attacked, brutalized, and disrespected their community.

Being a cop is not an identity - it's a job, a choice.

They’re being excluded and barred from showing how law-enforcement should see and interact with the lgbt community. Law enforcement should not see them as some outside threat of the community. But people  they’re supposed to be protecting, and people that can even be serving with.
Hey the Catholic Church burned, castrated and killed a lot of people for being gay in its history.

So deride any gay catholic priests marching in pride parades in their robes? Or officiating any same-sex wedding?

The medical community classified homosexuality as being a mental illness and has tried to cure them through well torture.

Don’t align with any doctors publicly now? 

To change of institutions of power in a way you want it can be really helpful to have people within that institution championing the change you want.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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33 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

No it really isn’t.

The core message is the same: we don’t want you here.

The fact the organizers can’t literally do a background check for everyone who attends the match or planning to doesn’t alter that message.

And I don’t think it’s a message that will help anyone in any meaningful extent.

It is, because the only people getting the "we don't want you here" message are as I said the weird fucks who take on cop as part of their identity, and to them that's absolutely the message as it should be. This is no different when someone makes some comment about "men who do x thing" and a bunch of men whine and #notallmen about it. If the action or comment bother's you, you are part of the problem group and should fuck off.

Quite frankly, no cops at pride is an excellent filter.

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:


Hey the Catholic Church burned, castrated and killed a lot of people for being gay in its history.

So deride any gay catholic priests marching in pride parades in their robes? Or officiating any same-sex wedding?

Have gay priests marched in pride parades? I must have missed a papal bull or two. I'd assume that any priestly vestments at a pride parade were kinky cosplay.

 

Quote

The medical community classified homosexuality as being a mental illness and has tried to cure them through well torture.

Don’t align with any doctors publicly now? 

This is just sloppy whataboutism. And I don't think doctors are marching in pride parades in scrubs or labcoats?

Edited by DanteGabriel

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36 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The core message is the same: we don’t want you here.

The message is: You endanger our safety.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/15/nyregion/nyc-pride-nypd-banned.html

Quote

“The issue is, how do we make Pride safe for the people who feel the most marginalized and have often been left out of the conversations about how Pride is run?” said Beverly Tillery, the executive director of the New York City Anti-Violence Project, an L.G.B.T.Q. rights group.

 

In the case of NYC Pride, the changes are meant to address concerns voiced by some transgender, Black and Latino people who say they felt unsafe marching in front of a police force that routinely targeted and victimized them.

...

The Anti-Violence Project runs a 24-hour hotline for L.G.B.T.Q. people to report incidents of violence. In past years, workers consistently received calls during Pride celebrations from people reporting harassment or altercations involving “the very police who are supposed to be protecting them,” Ms. Tillery said.

Activists, including members of the Anti-Violence Project, have reported these incidents and concerns to Pride organizers. They pointed to other cities that barred uniformed police officers from their parades and called on New York to do the same.

As recently as 2019, organizers resisted. The tension in part led to the creation of the Queer Liberation March, which does not allow officers in uniform. At last year’s event, the police clashed with protesters, who said that officers used pepper spray on them.

 

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1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

No it really isn’t.

The core message is the same: we don’t want you here.

The fact the organizers can’t literally do a background check for everyone who attends the match or planning to doesn’t alter that message.

And I don’t think it’s a message that will help anyone in any meaningful extent.


 

They’re being excluded and barred from showing how law-enforcement should see and interact with the lgbt community. Law enforcement should not see them as some outside threat of the community. But people  they’re supposed to be protecting, and people that can even be serving with.
Hey the Catholic Church burned, castrated and killed a lot of people for being gay in its history.

So deride any gay catholic priests marching in pride parades in their robes? Or officiating any same-sex wedding?

The medical community classified homosexuality as being a mental illness and has tried to cure them through well torture.

Don’t align with any doctors publicly now? 

To change of institutions of power in a way you want it can be really helpful to have people within that institution championing the change you want.

The "core message" is that the police aren't welcome to march as police officers because that institution/profession has for many years been a system of oppression, violence and brutality against minorities, including the LGBTQIA+ community. If the police as an institution would like to march in future, they need to reform and account for their actions.

With regard to the bold, the issue is that this is not the relationship that the LGBTQIA+ community has with law enforcement. Until law enforcement can demonstrate that they deserve that trust, I don't see why they should be invited to participate in a celebration of a community who faces oppression and persecution in their daily lives.

None of this stops a police officer, whether they are part of the LGBTQIA+ community or not, from attending a Pride march in the the capacity as an individual.

I don't see your "what about the medical profession" analogy as particularly helpful. This is clearly not the situation now. But if it was, yes, I'd be objecting if a crowd of doctors and nurses showed up in their scrubs to march in supposed solidarity with a group of people they are systematically oppressing.

I appreciate there may be reasons why people stay in a job without supporting the systemic problems within the profession - money, social pressures, etc. - but again, they are still free to show their support for the community. Just don't show up in uniform.

Regarding "To change the institutions of power..." Yes, its great to have people from the LGBTQIA+ community work with institutions to Foster a good relationship and build trust, and address the institutional issues within that profession. But the police over recent years have abused what trust/relationship has been created. The LGBTQIA+ community can and will continue to work to address these issues, but that doesn't mean they need to extend an invite to the police to such a momentous and protected time of the year for them.

I don't know if you identify as LGBTQIA+ or not. I've struggled with my gender and sexuality a lot over the years and do fall under the umbrella, but want to stress that I am certainly no activist or advocate. I don't do a lot out in public to help the community, as much as I wish I had the confidence and strength to do so. I can't speak for the entire LGBTQIA+ community, nobody can, obviously.

With that said, I would suggest some sensitivity here. Pride is a very important time for the community and its important they feel safe at these special events. If keeping the police from marching is necessary to achieve that, then it seems worthwhile to me.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, TrueMetis said:

It is, because the only people getting the "we don't want you here" message are as I said the weird fucks who take on cop as part of their identity, and to them that's absolutely the message as it should be.

And gay cops in general. 

That they're some traitors, uncle toms for gay people by virtue of being gay and cops.

1 hour ago, TrueMetis said:

This is no different when someone makes some comment about "men who do x thing" and a bunch of men whine and #notallmen about it. If the action or comment bother's you, you are part of the problem group and should fuck off.

No, it's more like commenting on the problems of how America can be systemically racist against none-white people and then getting excluding white people from marches for racial justice.

Or commenting on there being a problem of “men who do x.” and the solution being women need separate from men in the public as much possible:

1 hour ago, DanteGabriel said:

Have gay priests marched in pride parades? I must have missed a papal bull or two. I'd assume that any priestly vestments at a pride parade were kinky cosplay.

This is a problem I had talked about earlier there still being strong connotation on what a gay man is or what he is supposed to be.

You're going off the assumption that the religious garments present at pride parades could be hypersexual sort meant tobe ironic.

Which is blatantly untrue and gives the notion that a gay man can't be genuinely religious and accepting of themselves.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_594d4836e4b0f078efd98108/amp

 

1 hour ago, DanteGabriel said:

This is just sloppy whataboutism. And I don't think doctors are marching in pride parades in scrubs or labcoats?

It is not. and quite frankly as much as people are zeroing in on the uniforms I'm fairly confident that no one trying to defend the exclusion would be more comfortable if gay cops simply held up banners that said “cops for the lgbt” or “Gay cops.” 

It's not just the uniform and you know it.

What's next?

Ban gay veterans from showing up in their uniform at pride parades because of the real and significant problem of homophobia in the military and its history of helping prop up regimes that were homophobic? 

1 hour ago, Week said:

The message is: You endanger our safety.

Yes this is the explicit attempt at justification. 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I don't see your "what about the medical profession" analogy as particularly helpful. This is clearly not the situation now. But if it was, yes, I'd be objecting if a crowd of doctors and nurses showed up in their scrubs to march in supposed solidarity with a group of people they are systematically oppressing.

Which would help no one and give the medical community even more of an excuse to continue as they were as well as reduce the public perception  that gay people can be in professions that people generally respect and admire for helping save lives.

1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I don't know if you identify as LGBTQIA+ or not.

Bi.

1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I appreciate there may be reasons why people stay in a job without supporting the systemic problems within the profession - money, social pressures, etc. - but again, they are still free to show their support for the community. Just don't show up in uniform.

Or because they think doing their job can leave a good impact on the world.

I imagine the gay cop groups being excluded genuinely their presence would help foster an acceptance of the lgbt+ community. And nomalize the idea that men who aren't heterosexual don't have to fit a mold in terms of how they can or like. 

I honestly do suspect many gay men who considered themselves masculine and had admiration to certain things do find harder to see themselves as many of the people who are at pride parades who dress themselves up as flamboyantly as possible.

And, gay cops are allowed to show to show their support-so long as the people don't know their cops.

Again a distinction without a difference.

To gay cops the message being said is that they're presence isn't wanted. It doesn't matter if they won't get hassled if people don't know they're cops.

That's the message being recognized to many.

1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Regarding "To change the institutions of power..." Yes, its great to have people from the LGBTQIA+ community work with institutions to Foster a good relationship and build trust, and address the institutional issues within that profession. But the police over recent years have abused what trust/relationship has been created. The LGBTQIA+ community can and will continue to work to address these issues, but that doesn't mean they need to extend an invite to the police to such a momentous and protected time of the year for them.

How are you supposed to foster trust or change when one's mere presence is automatically going to be seen as an attack that needs removal altogether?

I do recognize that law-enforcement like most institutions  of power in this country have/are abusive towards people based around their race, sex, class. I get that. 

But I just don't see attempts at total segregation from LE is the benefits of any marginalised community.

They shouldn't just be expected to be a protective/supportive presence to those of a more dominant group in society.

I don't want cops out of poor black and brown communities. I want them many of them to a better job at doing their job; which should be to protect those communities.

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9 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I find this to have no worthwhile distinction.
I can easily go “I’m not banning gay customers. Just people who happen to be gay in my store.” 
It's telling these men if they want to be apart of their community that they have to be ashamed and hide what they are when they're participating in such events.
 

I think you're confusing some of the commentary I included to make the point that outright banning gay people who happen to be cops is not at all feasible with the rationale for no cops at pride. Again its not that gay/bi/pan cops are not welcome as private citizens, its that formal representatives of an oppressive organization are not welcome as part of the protest which started as a protest against that very organization. Especially when they have been allowed to be a part of it for years, and have both made people feel unsafe at pride and have continued to behave in a way outside of pride that makes the organizing committee feel that including them has not been working.

Again, they do not need to hide that they're cops, they just need to come as private citizens and not as their job.

Maybe it would help to put it in a cynical construct - you could see the relationship between cops as pride as a manifestation of the prisoners dilemma. Cops and the LGBTQI community choosing cooperate produces the best overall outcome, and that's what pride has been doing - its been choosing cooperate, but the police have not. Not welcoming them at pride this year is a taste of the stick to try get them to cooperate in the future. This isn't actually how I see things, but I think its a more useful framing than how you're looking at it.

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I think you're confusing some of the commentary I included to make the point that outright banning gay people who happen to be cops is not at all feasible with the rationale for no cops at pride. Again its not that gay/bi/pan cops are not welcome as private citizens, its that formal representatives of an oppressive organization are not welcome as part of the protest which started as a protest against that very organization. Especially when they have been allowed to be a part of it for years, and have both made people feel unsafe at pride and have continued to behave in a way outside of pride that makes the organizing committee feel that including them has not been working.

Again, they do not need to hide that they're cops, they just need to come as private citizens and not as their job.

If I may ask innocently, does this also mean there's an opposition to a police presence at Pride parades/events for security reasons, not just being involved in the actual event?

Edited by Tywin et al.

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Posted (edited)

 

56 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Again, they do not need to hide that they're cops, they just need to come as private citizens and not as their job.

 

Yes they kinda do. 

56 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Maybe it would help to put it in a cynical construct - you could see the relationship between cops as pride as a manifestation of the prisoners dilemma. Cops and the LGBTQI community choosing cooperate produces the best overall outcome, and that's what pride has been doing - its been choosing cooperate, but the police have not. Not welcoming them at pride this year is a taste of the stick to try get them to cooperate in the future.

I don't see any potential for progress by just settling on trying to remove the police altogether as if they by itself. That won't  actually affect toxic patterns in behavior. This isn't a stick that'll sting anyone but the gay officers who are trying to actually implement changes and not giving a proper example of how cops ought to act lgbt community.

You might as well go “black people should stop calling the police on anything out of protest.” Yeah it wouldn't lessen racism within the police. It’d just help formalize the idea that LE shouldn't be expected to help people in marginalized communities.

 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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A lot of black people (and other people in general) do avoid calling the police. It's not out of any sort of protest, it's because it's not fucking safe. And the idea that LE aren't expected to help marginalized communities (or again communities in general) is already formalized in the US, by the fucking supreme court no less.

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5 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

A lot of black people (and other people in general) do avoid calling the police.

Many do certainly.

Many however don’t have many options sometimes but to do so.

8 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

It's not out of any sort of protest, it's because it's not fucking safe.

And thus it’d be pertinent to try tackle reasons as to why instead of hoping they’d change by just...banning as much as possible from parades and calling 9-11.

10 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

LE aren't expected to help marginalized communities (or again communities in general) is already formalized in the US, by the fucking supreme court no less.

True and a fair point bring up;https://www.google.com/search?q=suprem+court+do+cops+have+to+help+people&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari

 

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