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Heresy 235 The Winter Snow


Black Crow

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29 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

So what I wonder is what was happening at night more important for Rhaegar than what happened during the day?  The fact that they froliced in the Hall of a Hundred Hearths makes it even more intriguing to me.  Was Rhaegar cultivating multiple sources of King's blood at that tourney?  King's blood that was to be used to wake his dragon?

We know of at least one person close to Rhaegar's inner circle that came away pregnant from the tourney.

I think this is very interesting. Never thought of it, but it is something I completly agree might be possible and very in character.

 

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Single-minded is the phrase that sticks out to me.  It makes it seem unlikely that he would endanger his kingdom or his marriage to the mother of the prince that was promised to chase after a sixteen year old girl like some love sick puppy.

While that is one perspective of Rhaegar that is presented, both Barristan and Cersei also remember him as melancholic--he was burdened with his obligations as heir to the throne (and possibly more than that, if he had been tPtwP), but he didn't seem terribly happy about those obligations, and whether or not he could have found something he valued more than them is, IMO, an unresolved question.

Summerhall, on the one hand, appears to be the site of a failed attempt to hatch dragons--but it's also the place where several notable figures died, including Jenny of Oldstones and the Targaryen prince that abandoned his throne out of love for her.

So, as it stands, I think we're still dealing with multiple potential motives for Rhaegar - love, prophesy, a desire to weaken the Stark-Baratheon-Tully-Arryn alliance - and those motives are not necessarily mutually exclusive; what may have begun as a plan to create a third head may have turned into something else along the way.

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10 hours ago, LynnS said:

Well, if this is about kings blood; here's another question...  If he kidnapped Lyanna; was it to bear his offspring or was it to prevent her from bearing Robert Baratheon's offspring?

I've never been clear in my mind anent the Baratheon involvement in this, or rather the Starks are straightforward in that they thrown their teddy in the corner and the king - like any self-respecting mediaeval monarch - responds to the challenge. But what did Trouserless Bob Baratheon do to upset him ?

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10 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Very possible.  But Aemon said that better men have done worse.  Which implies more than one.

Not necessarily more than one or at least it could simply refer to one and his accomplices/followers, but given his knowledge and his own connections, I do think he's referring to Rhaegar - and may himself have been one of his accomplices.

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The brooding and single-minded descriptions of Rhaegar draw a straight line to taking harsh decisions without a second thought.

We know he was obsessed by prophecy, and I cannot get this part with, paraphrased, father and son dying, so both die kings, out of my head. It fits to Rickard and Brandon, if we assume the Starks are Kings of Winter. Did Rhaegar abduct Lyanna only so he could orchestrate Rickard's and Brandon's execution? And is this what triggered the reemergence of the White Walkers?

Let's pause a minute to praise Robert Baratheon, first of his name, ... , for ridding Westeros of Rhaegar Targaryen.

 

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34 minutes ago, alienarea said:

The brooding and single-minded descriptions of Rhaegar draw a straight line to taking harsh decisions without a second thought.

We know he was obsessed by prophecy, and I cannot get this part with, paraphrased, father and son dying, so both die kings, out of my head. It fits to Rickard and Brandon, if we assume the Starks are Kings of Winter. Did Rhaegar abduct Lyanna only so he could orchestrate Rickard's and Brandon's execution? And is this what triggered the reemergence of the White Walkers?

Let's pause a minute to praise Robert Baratheon, first of his name, ... , for ridding Westeros of Rhaegar Targaryen.

 

That is the problem of building a cargo cult out of half forgotten and badly translated recipes. They are guessing both the ingredients and the process.

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1 hour ago, alienarea said:

The brooding and single-minded descriptions of Rhaegar draw a straight line to taking harsh decisions without a second thought.

We know he was obsessed by prophecy, and I cannot get this part with, paraphrased, father and son dying, so both die kings, out of my head. It fits to Rickard and Brandon, if we assume the Starks are Kings of Winter. Did Rhaegar abduct Lyanna only so he could orchestrate Rickard's and Brandon's execution? And is this what triggered the reemergence of the White Walkers?

 

It certainly cuts across the romantic vision of Rhaegar falling in love with a stranger and eloping. Just doesn't ring true. Returning to the OP was Jon deliberately fathered on Lynna for a purpose or was he just a by-blow of something else ? 

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5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I've never been clear in my mind anent the Baratheon involvement in this, or rather the Starks are straightforward in that they thrown their teddy in the corner and the king - like any self-respecting mediaeval monarch - responds to the challenge. But what did Trouserless Bob Baratheon do to upset him ?

Robert and Ned did nothing to upset the king. If aerys wanted Ned dead he should also want benjen dead... 

To me that is a clue that one of Brandon's friends was tortured and told them that the starks wanted to make Robert King. 

That would explain why aerys killed Rickard and Brandon and wanted to kill Robert and Ned (his best friend so he should be involved). And it also explains why he told Jon arryn to do it (in order to know if Jon was involved with his wards or was still loyal). 

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7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I've never been clear in my mind anent the Baratheon involvement in this, or rather the Starks are straightforward in that they thrown their teddy in the corner and the king - like any self-respecting mediaeval monarch - responds to the challenge. But what did Trouserless Bob Baratheon do to upset him ?

I think we have to remember that we're dealing with someone who certainly earned the moniker of the mad king.  My guess is after Rhaegar's alleged kidnapping of Lyanna and Aerys' executing the various lords in his control he belatedly realized he needed hostages to stay the retribution from the Starks and the Baratheons, and I suppose the Arryns as well.  And Arryn not having an heir, the next best thing would be to take his ward Robert.  

It would also prevent the next two obvious canidates for taking up Brandon's cause, Eddard being the next oldest brother to Lyanna and Robert being her betrothed.

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2 hours ago, divica said:

Robert and Ned did nothing to upset the king. If aerys wanted Ned dead he should also want benjen dead... 

Which is interesting because there is no mention that Aerys ever ordered Benjen to be turned over to him.  Which begs the question, when Eddard told Robert that they went to war against the Targaryens to stop the murder of children, what children was he referring to?

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4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

It certainly cuts across the romantic vision of Rhaegar falling in love with a stranger and eloping. Just doesn't ring true. Returning to the OP was Jon deliberately fathered on Lynna for a purpose or was he just a by-blow of something else ? 

I lost track whether GRRM confirmed Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon. Did he?

I recall, but might be wrong, that he asked DnD the name of Jon's mother? I don't want to open that can of worms again.

Brooding and single-minded could be symptoms of autism. Do we know Rhaegar showed empathy?

If he was obsessed with creating the three heads of the dragon, and Summerhall was a failed attempt, then maybe the next attempt was more ruthless and involved sacrificing the Starks. And Lyanna was just a tool and Jon's father might be one of those Kingsguard?

Ironically, the first father than son might refer to Aerys and Viserys, and Daenerys is the dragon Rhaegar tried to create. Instead, he created the man to kill this dragon?

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4 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Which is interesting because there is no mention that Aerys ever ordered Benjen to be turned over to him.  Which begs the question, when Eddard told Robert that they went to war against the Targaryens to stop the murder of children, what children was he referring to?

I don't even remember any other person talking about aerys killing children. And now it reminds me of varys speech as he is killing kevan.

 

 

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6 hours ago, alienarea said:

The brooding and single-minded descriptions of Rhaegar draw a straight line to taking harsh decisions without a second thought.

We know he was obsessed by prophecy, and I cannot get this part with, paraphrased, father and son dying, so both die kings, out of my head. It fits to Rickard and Brandon, if we assume the Starks are Kings of Winter. Did Rhaegar abduct Lyanna only so he could orchestrate Rickard's and Brandon's execution? And is this what triggered the reemergence of the White Walkers?

Let's pause a minute to praise Robert Baratheon, first of his name, ... , for ridding Westeros of Rhaegar Targaryen.

 

I know you’re being a bit tongue and cheek on this, but if you take Eddard at his word, it seems that he considered Robert’s killing of Rhaegar to be vengeance for Lyanna:

Quote

“The Others take your honor!” Robert swore. “What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon’s honor!”

“You avenged Lyanna at the Trident,” Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.

While it could be argued that Ned was just trying to appease Robert a bit, it’s unlike Ned to utter a lie when he doesn’t have to.  And here Ned could have kept quiet.  But he didn’t.  He seems to reaffirm to Robert that Rhaegar’s death was indeed vengeance for Lyanna.

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4 minutes ago, divica said:

I don't even remember any other person talking about aerys killing children. And now it reminds me of varys speech as he is killing kevan.

 

 

The only instance that has been brought up is the aftermath of the defiance at Duskendale.  But clearly Robert’s Rebellion was not started over that incident.

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21 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Ironically, the first father than son might refer to Aerys and Viserys, and Daenerys is the dragon Rhaegar tried to create. Instead, he created the man to kill this dragon?

Ooh, that’s an interesting take.

There is a lot of sword symbolism as it relates to Jon.  Jon moves his quarters to an armory and compares himself to Valyrian steel at one point.  I think for GRRM his “magic swords” are actually his characters.  I think Jon’s biggest parallel in mythology is the Norse sword, Gram.

Forged by a magical blacksmith, Gram was embedded by Odin in a mystical tree, where only someone considered worthy would be able to draw it from the tree.  King Sigurd is able to draw the sword, only to have it broken against the spear of a black cloaked soldier.  The sword is then reforged and made stronger and then used to slay the dragon Fafnir.

While Jon was technically trained by Thorne, in reality it was the blacksmith, Donal Noye, who really helped “forge” Jon.  The Odin figure, Lord Commander Mormont, is the one who makes Jon reswear his vow to stay at the Wall, thereby embedding Jon via an Oath to the Wall and the Night’s Watch.

Stannis tries to draw Jon from his oath to use him as his “sword”, but is unsuccessful.  Finally the author of the “pink letter” draws Jon from his oath.  So if that author were either Stannis or Mance, then the analogy continues.  That a “king” is able to “free” Jon from where he was embedded/imprisoned.  

Jon is then “broken” by the black cloaked soldiers of the Night’s Watch.  So assuming the analogy continues, we should expect Jon at some point to be “reforged” or “resurrected” and become more powerful than before.

And ultimately if the analogy holds we should expect Jon to slay a dragon.

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6 hours ago, alienarea said:

The brooding and single-minded descriptions of Rhaegar draw a straight line to taking harsh decisions without a second thought.

I suppose it's a credit to the way GRRM has presented recent history, with us being largely at the mercy of unreliable narrators to learn about people like Aerys, Rhaegar, Rickard, etc., that these characters can reasonably be read in some fairly different ways. I don't know what it says about me as a reader, but for Rhaegar, I've always given greater weight in my interpretation of him to conversations like this one with Jaime:
 

Quote

Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime's shoulder. "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return."

Those were the last words Rhaegar Targaryen ever spoke to him. 

To me, this reads as though Rhaegar couldn't bring himself to take action on certain issues--and based on context, I assume he's talking about Aerys' declining stability. Similarly, comments about him "loving his harp more than his lance," and taking sojourns to Summerhall to compose new songs contradict the idea of Rhaegar as a monomaniac, and perhaps show the schism between what Rhaegar felt obligated to do and what he actually took joy in.

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19 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

To me, this reads as though Rhaegar couldn't bring himself to take action on certain issues--and based on context, I assume he's talking about Aerys' declining stability. Similarly, comments about him "loving his harp more than his lance," and taking sojourns to Summerhall to compose new songs contradict the idea of Rhaegar as a monomaniac, and perhaps show the schism between what Rhaegar felt obligated to do and what he actually took joy in.

That's basically my take on Rhaegar, and what in my mind seperates him from Melisandre, even though I believe the two of them were/are on very similar tracks.

Both seem to believe that they have the responsibility of preparing the Prince that was Promised/Azor Ahai's "instrument for the war for the dawn.  This responsibility seems to be more a burden for Rhaegar, and perhaps is the cause of his melancholy.  For Melisandre, however, she seems to enthusiastically embrace the role.

This especially holds true if Melisandre and Rhaegar both believed that a sacrifice of king's blood is needed to help bring about prepare the prophecized savior.  Melisandre seems a bit too enthusiastic about it.  If Rhaegar believed the same, at least he seemed burdened by it.

In which case we may have a closer parallel to Stannis and Rhaegar.  Stannis is led to believe that he has to sacrifice Edric for the greater good, but he comes to that realization very reluctantly and has to convince himself that it's for the greater good.

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49 minutes ago, alienarea said:

I lost track whether GRRM confirmed Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon. Did he?

I recall, but might be wrong, that he asked DnD the name of Jon's mother? I don't want to open that can of worms again.

No, GRRM himself remains silent anent R+L=J. As I too recall, you're correct in thinking that the "password" question was specifically as to Jon's mother. Obviously, they took passing the test as confirmation of R+L=J and proceeded accordingly. Their promotion of the theory may or may not be supported by a very shaky ladder, but this present thread is predicated on the fact that if Jon is not to be the rightful Targaryen Prince that was promised, then who is he and is it [as I contend] more important that he is a son of Winterfell.

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44 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

 

Ooh, that’s an interesting take.

There is a lot of sword symbolism as it relates to Jon.  Jon moves his quarters to an armory and compares himself to Valyrian steel at one point.  I think for GRRM his “magic swords” are actually his characters.  I think Jon’s biggest parallel in mythology is the Norse sword, Gram.

Forged by a magical blacksmith, Gram was embedded by Odin in a mystical tree, where only someone considered worthy would be able to draw it from the tree.  King Sigurd is able to draw the sword, only to have it broken against the spear of a black cloaked soldier.  The sword is then reforged and made stronger and then used to slay the dragon Fafnir.

While Jon was technically trained by Thorne, in reality it was the blacksmith, Donal Noye, who really helped “forge” Jon.  The Odin figure, Lord Commander Mormont, is the one who makes Jon reswear his vow to stay at the Wall, thereby embedding Jon via an Oath to the Wall and the Night’s Watch.

Stannis tries to draw Jon from his oath to use him as his “sword”, but is unsuccessful.  Finally the author of the “pink letter” draws Jon from his oath.  So if that author were either Stannis or Mance, then the analogy continues.  That a “king” is able to “free” Jon from where he was embedded/imprisoned.  

Jon is then “broken” by the black cloaked soldiers of the Night’s Watch.  So assuming the analogy continues, we should expect Jon at some point to be “reforged” or “resurrected” and become more powerful than before.

And ultimately if the analogy holds we should expect Jon to slay a dragon.

Oh I do like this one :commie:

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21 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

This especially holds true if Melisandre and Rhaegar both believed that a sacrifice of king's blood is needed to help bring about prepare the prophecized savior.  Melisandre seems a bit too enthusiastic about it.  If Rhaegar believed the same, at least he seemed burdened by it.

As a slight addition to the sacrifice angle for tPtwP, I'd like to shout out a theory that Armstark posted here several years ago that I thought was pretty neat, partially based on this fragment from the World Book that is about the Tragedy at Summerhall:

Quote

the blood of the dragon gathered in one …
… seven eggs, to honor the seven gods, though the king's own septon had warned …
… pyromancers …
… wild fire …
… flames grew out of control … towering … burned so hot that …
died, but for the valor of the Lord Comman


If I recall correctly, his idea was that this hints toward the end of the Dunk and Egg tales--That Rhaella was still pregnant with Rhaegar (but soon to give birth), and that Egg intended for Rhaegar to suffer the same fate that Rhaego ultimately suffers, and be the sacrifice that quickens the stone eggs, and that Dunk may have been forced to betray Egg to save Rhaella and the unborn Rhaegar; this, in turn is part of why Rhaegar lives under the shadow of Summerhall, and is so connected to the prophesy, as he was meant to be a sacrifice.

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