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Heresy 235 The Winter Snow


Black Crow

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15 hours ago, Matthew. said:

As a slight addition to the sacrifice angle for tPtwP, I'd like to shout out a theory that Armstark posted here several years ago that I thought was pretty neat, partially based on this fragment from the World Book that is about the Tragedy at Summerhall:


If I recall correctly, his idea was that this hints toward the end of the Dunk and Egg tales--That Rhaella was still pregnant with Rhaegar (but soon to give birth), and that Egg intended for Rhaegar to suffer the same fate that Rhaego ultimately suffers, and be the sacrifice that quickens the stone eggs, and that Dunk may have been forced to betray Egg to save Rhaella and the unborn Rhaegar; this, in turn is part of why Rhaegar lives under the shadow of Summerhall, and is so connected to the prophesy, as he was meant to be a sacrifice.

So is the suggestion that R+L=J is true, but that J was intended not as a Targaryen heir but as a sacrifice ?

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On 4/27/2021 at 3:48 AM, Black Crow said:

I've never been clear in my mind anent the Baratheon involvement in this, or rather the Starks are straightforward in that they thrown their teddy in the corner and the king - like any self-respecting mediaeval monarch - responds to the challenge. But what did Trouserless Bob Baratheon do to upset him ?

I'm not sure that he consciously did anything.  Aerys was influenced or manipulated by any number of players who may have seen the Northern Alliance as a threat.  Chief among them, Tywin Lannister and given the outcome, Lyanna Stark would be in the way.  Then there is the accusation that Tyrion levels at Pycelle:

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A Clash of Kings - Tyrion VI

That took Tyrion by surprise. He had been no more than an ugly boy at Casterly Rock when the city fell. "So the Sack of King's Landing was your work as well?"

"For the realm! Once Rhaegar died, the war was done. Aerys was mad, Viserys too young, Prince Aegon a babe at the breast, but the realm needed a king . . . I prayed it should be your good father, but Robert was too strong, and Lord Stark moved too swiftly . . ."

"How many have you betrayed, I wonder? Aerys, Eddard Stark, me . . . King Robert as well? Lord Arryn, Prince Rhaegar? Where does it begin, Pycelle?" He knew where it ended.

 

I know we are working with the premise that Rhaegar is Jon's daddy but I can't dismiss Robert.  The deathbed scene seems loaded with subtext to me.  When Robert asks Ned to take care of his son,  I'm not sure that he is talking about Joffrey especially since he doesn't mention Myrcella and Tommen.  Ned says yes and quickly adds that he will take care of all his children.  Ditto when Robert regrets his latest by-blow as too young and he should have known better.  I'm not sure that he isn't talking about Lyanna here.

If we are talking about the convergence of powerful bloodlines;  seems to me that the connection to the Gardener bloodline is equally important. Jon Snow-Storm has a certain ring to it.

Donal Noye's comparison of Baratheon metal is interesting:

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A Clash of Kings - Jon I

"Aye. I was his man, a Baratheon man, smith and armorer at Storm's End until I lost the arm. I'm old enough to remember Lord Steffon before the sea took him, and I knew those three sons of his since they got their names. I tell you this—Robert was never the same after he put on that crown. Some men are like swords, made for fighting. Hang them up and they go to rust."

"And his brothers?" Jon asked.

The armorer considered that a moment. "Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day."

 

The irony here is that if Jon is the 'true steel', it's his Uncle who is offering to make Jon a great bastard. Potentially Jon could also be black and hard and strong, and will have to break before he bends.

There are numerous references to swords in Jon's POW.  Same with shields in Jaime's POV and horns in Sams POV.  I keep thinking about the Night Watch vow:  I am the sword, the shield and the horn.  I don't think we are done with that.

 

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

So is the suggestion that R+L=J is true, but that J was intended not as a Targaryen heir but as a sacrifice ?

Many threads points towards obtaining (or becoming) a living weapon by blood and fire sacrifice.

Azor Ahai sacrificed the thing that he loved the most to get Lightbringer (with Nissa Nissa inside it). Aerion and Aerys II thought they could ascend into dragon-hood. Egg probably followed a similar line of thought (self sacrifice to provide his descendants with dragons). Dany put her whole life into the pyre: husband, son, eggs and herself. But prophecies are tricky (specially old badly translated ones)

 

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13 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Many threads points towards obtaining (or becoming) a living weapon by blood and fire sacrifice.

Azor Ahai sacrificed the thing that he loved the most to get Lightbringer (with Nissa Nissa inside it). Aerion and Aerys II thought they could ascend into dragon-hood. Egg probably followed a similar line of thought (self sacrifice to provide his descendants with dragons). Dany put her whole life into the pyre: husband, son, eggs and herself. But prophecies are tricky (specially old badly translated ones)

 

Yes I can see that as to the intention. It went badly wrong at Summerhall. Rhaegar was going to have another go  and that would be consistent both with his single-minded determination and the melancholy in recognising th sacrifice necessary, and finally Danaerys succeeded, albeit by accident.

In the meantime we're left with Jon, neither a lost Targaryen prince nor a sacrifice to create dragons, but a son of Winterfell to counterbalance them.

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Yes I can see that as to the intention. It went badly wrong at Summerhall. Rhaegar was going to have another go  and that would be consistent both with his single-minded determination and the melancholy in recognising th sacrifice necessary, and finally Danaerys succeeded, albeit by accident.

In the meantime we're left with Jon, neither a lost Targaryen prince nor a sacrifice to create dragons, but a son of Winterfell to counterbalance them.

Sometimes I try to look for clues that Jon Snow is neither a Targ or a Stark. He might really be the son of Wylla (or equivalent) but then chosen by the Old Gods.. If Jon is mirroring Ned with his handling of Monster and Aemon Steelsong, then Ned kept the "Monster" and sent away the son of the king.

This is Jon's conversation with Gilly:

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“Fire is a cruel way to die. Dalla died to give this child life, but you have nourished him, cherished him. You saved your own boy from the ice. Now save hers from the fire.”

“They’ll burn my babe, then. The red woman. If she can’t have Dalla’s, she’ll burn mine.”

“Your son has no king’s blood. Melisandre gains nothing by giving him to the fire. Stannis wants the free folk to fight for him, he will not burn an innocent without good cause. Your boy will be safe. I will find a wet nurse for him and he’ll be raised here at Castle Black under my protection. He’ll learn to hunt and ride, to fight with sword and axe and bow. I’ll even see that he is taught to read and write.” Sam would like that. “And when he is old enough, he will learn the truth of who he is. He’ll be free to seek you out if that is what he wants.”

The last part is basically what Ned gave Jon: safety and training; Ned's last thoughts about Jon were about talking with him about his mother.

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9 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Sometimes I try to look for clues that Jon Snow is neither a Targ or a Stark. He might really be the son of Wylla (or equivalent) but then chosen by the Old Gods.

Entirely possible, but what I'm aiming at is looking at the possible reasons/outcomes why R=L=J might be true, if Jon is neither AA nor High King

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Entirely possible, but what I'm aiming at is looking at the possible reasons/outcomes why R=L=J might be true, if Jon is neither AA nor High King

In my scenario R+L=J is the result of the most terrible of the Valyrian disciplines: glass candles (known as television magic in our world). Jon and fAegon were merged into a single wyrm after looking into pieces of obsidian and gained Einstein-Rosen superpowers; this allows them to cover all the area limited by Hardhome and KL, ride a dragon and use direwolves as blankets.

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1 minute ago, Tucu said:

In my scenario R+L=J is the result of the most terrible of the Valyrian disciplines: glass candles (known as television magic in our world). Jon and fAegon were merged into a single wyrm after looking into pieces of obsidian and gained Einstein-Rosen superpowers; this allows them to cover all the area limited by Hardhome and Dragonstone, ride a dragon and use direwolves as blankets.

So we're all Doomed :devil:

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7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

So is the suggestion that R+L=J is true, but that J was intended not as a Targaryen heir but as a sacrifice ?

Assuming R + L = J is true, that's my take.  Much of it goes back to the Heresy discussions of Jon as the Corn King and the references to Barleycorn, i.e. Jon, err, John Barleycorn:

From the 60's band Traffic:

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There were three men came out of the West
Their fortunes for to try
And these three men made a solemn vow
John Barleycorn must die

Now juxtapose this with another group of three men who made a vow:

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"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out.  "The Kingsguard does not flee."

"Then or now," said Ser Arthur.  He donned his helm.

"We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold.

My suspicion is that Ned took a small group of seven with him to the tower of joy, seven men he could trust to keep a secret, not to rescue Lyanna, but to rescue her son.  Which is why this was always going to be a battle to the death.  For Eddard:

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"Nonetheless," Ned said, "the murder of children ... it would be vile ... unspeakable ..."

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"Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?"

Just as unspeakable for the Kingsguard, but they swore an oath.  And for the Kingsguard it had to be death before dishonor.  Something that Eddard could appreciate.

Which is what I think happened at the end of the battle.  My guess is Howland Reed saved Eddard's life not by conflict or chicannery, but by having Arthur come to a realization as to his only way out of his dilemna.  Which was let Eddard win.  Sacrificing his life so he doesn't have to do the unspeakable but he also doesn't have to disobey his vows.

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40 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Which is what I think happened at the end of the battle.  My guess is Howland Reed saved Eddard's life not by conflict or chicannery, but by having Arthur come to a realization as to his only way out of his dilemna.  Which was let Eddard win.  Sacrificing his life so he doesn't have to do the unspeakable but he also doesn't have to disobey his vows.

I have described the three Kings Guard before as Ronin, and as such dying at that point would indeed be the honourable way out if they were not to follow dishonourable orders

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3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I have described thI really likree Kings Guard before as Ronin, and as such dying at that point would indeed be the honourable way out if they were not to follow dishonourable orders

 

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Which is what I think happened at the end of the battle.  My guess is Howland Reed saved Eddard's life not by conflict or chicannery, but by having Arthur come to a realization as to his only way out of his dilemna.  Which was let Eddard win.  Sacrificing his life so he doesn't have to do the unspeakable but he also doesn't have to disobey his vows.

I really like this idea. But then again, I just don't see these Kingsguard just saying, "You are right, guys. Please kill us."

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36 minutes ago, Travis said:

 

I really like this idea. But then again, I just don't see these Kingsguard just saying, "You are right, guys. Please kill us."

I don’t think all the Kingsguards did, I think only Arthur did.  Which is why Eddard would hold him in such high regard.  He would be willing to die rather than betray his vow to his king, even if that vow was unconscionable.  Arthur would have been torn between two dishonorable acts.  If Arthur had upheld his oath to his king it would have violated his oath to protect the innocent (if that vow involved sacrificing a child with kingsblood).  So Arthur’s only choice would be death before dishonor.  It’s the only way out of the contradiction that Jaime found in being a Kingsguard.  When fulfilling one oath violates another.

Same reason that Eddard holds Jaime in such low regard even though Jaime killed the monster who killed Eddard’s brother and father.  Jaime violated his oath to protect the king even if that king wasn’t worth protecting.

There is also a bit of a parallel to another character who willingly let a Stark (technically a Snow) kill him.  And if you look closely there are a number of parallels between Qhorin half hand and Ser Arthur Dayne.

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On 4/28/2021 at 10:15 PM, Frey family reunion said:

There is also a bit of a parallel to another character who willingly let a Stark (technically a Snow) kill him.  And if you look closely there are a number of parallels between Qhorin half hand and Ser Arthur Dayne.

A Half-Stark killing a half hand to mirror past events? Nice find.

We have quite a few of those, some with twists, maybe we have already been told the ending?

 

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4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

You mean the bitter-sweet one ?

The end. 

I don't care if it's bitter, sweet or bitter-sweet as long as it doesn't turn out to be the crap DnD showed us.

Just going by the first book I had expected some of this:

- Bran to meet Jaime again and push him down somewhere

- Jaime to end up on the iron throne

- Arya to die in winter with Needle in her hand

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I'd like to briefly touch on something from the last thread.  Going back to the blinding light that Quentyn sees when he looks down Rhaego's throat and Quaithes instruction for Dany to 'pass beneath the shadow and touch the light'.  Here is something that caught my eye:

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A Dance with Dragons - The Sacrifice

"R'hllor," Ser Godry sang, "we give you now four evil men. With glad hearts and true, we give them to your cleansing fires, that the darkness in their souls might be burned away. Let their vile flesh be seared and blackened, that their spirits might rise free and pure to ascend into the light. Accept their blood, Oh lord, and melt the icy chains that bind your servants. Hear their pain, and grant strength to our swords that we might shed the blood of your enemies. Accept this sacrifice, and show us the way to Winterfell, that we might vanquish the unbelievers."

 

I'm guessing that for Dany to touch the light, her soul will have to ascend in some manner.  Possibly in a near death experience similar to Bran, who, in his soul's journey, touches the darkness.

We may have been given some indication of what touching the light looks like when a soul ascends:

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys X

Another step, and Dany could feel the heat of the sand on the soles of her feet, even through her sandals. Sweat ran down her thighs and between her breasts and in rivulets over her cheeks, where tears had once run. Ser Jorah was shouting behind her, but he did not matter anymore, only the fire mattered. The flames were so beautiful, the loveliest things she had ever seen, each one a sorcerer robed in yellow and orange and scarlet, swirling long smoky cloaks. She saw crimson firelions and great yellow serpents and unicorns made of pale blue flame; she saw fish and foxes and monsters, wolves and bright birds and flowering trees, each more beautiful than the last. She saw a horse, a great grey stallion limned in smoke, its flowing mane a nimbus of blue flame. Yes, my love, my sun-and-stars, yes, mount now, ride now.

Her vest had begun to smolder, so Dany shrugged it off and let it fall to the ground. The painted leather burst into sudden flame as she skipped closer to the fire, her breasts bare to the blaze, streams of milk flowing from her red and swollen nipples. Now, she thought, now, and for an instant she glimpsed Khal Drogo before her, mounted on his smoky stallion, a flaming lash in his hand. He smiled, and the whip snaked down at the pyre, hissing.

 

 

But what exactly is the light?  Is it the source of fire magic?  Something that connects all dragons to that source.  Is it souls that are being consumed and not just the burning of a body?  

Dany doesn't say she is the bride of fire, she says she is the bride of dragons:

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys X

And there came a second crack, loud and sharp as thunder, and the smoke stirred and whirled around her and the pyre shifted, the logs exploding as the fire touched their secret hearts. She heard the screams of frightened horses, and the voices of the Dothraki raised in shouts of fear and terror, and Ser Jorah calling her name and cursing. No, she wanted to shout to him, no, my good knight, do not fear for me. The fire is mine. I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons, don't you see? Don't you SEE? With a belch of flame and smoke that reached thirty feet into the sky, the pyre collapsed and came down around her. Unafraid, Dany stepped forward into the firestorm, calling to her children.

 

 Once again, I have to say that R'hllor is a dragon god, the singing dragon that cleanses her soul, chooses her to be mother of dragons, gives her immunity from fire; the old power that Mirri wakes; the man limned in flame; the soul of fire, the Lord of Light.

I also think that when the Undying say that the dragon has three heads, they are referring to R'hllor to which Dany is the mother of dragons (and Drogon is the child of three).  Mel says that he choses his instruments as required and I think she is the Bride of Fire;  Tyrion, the Slayer of Lies.  

Since they also refer to drinking from a cup of ice; the other dragon with three heads could be Bloodraven, the white dragon.  The three heads:  Bran, Jon and Arya. 

And a random thought about the name R'hllor.  Martin has joked about nobody knowing how to pronounce R'hllor.  If it's a matter of pronunciation, then names liked Rhaegar, Rhaella, Rhaenrys etc., may sound one way when spoken in the common tongue and another when spoken with an accent in another tongue.  Hence you might get a different sound indicated by the apostrophe and that's all it means.  R'haegar, R'haella, R'haenrys.  It looks to me like R'hllor fits a Targ naming convention.

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16 hours ago, alienarea said:

The end. 

I don't care if it's bitter, sweet or bitter-sweet as long as it doesn't turn out to be the crap DnD showed us.

Just going by the first book I had expected some of this:

- Bran to meet Jaime again and push him down somewhere

- Jaime to end up on the iron throne

- Arya to die in winter with Needle in her hand

As I've said before the very awfulness of the Mummers' version is what gives me hope that GRRM will indeed finish his story if only to ensure that the Mummers' one isn't his legacy.

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

 

I'm guessing that for Dany to touch the light, her soul will have to ascend in some manner.  Possibly in a near death experience similar to Bran, who, in his soul's journey, touches the darkness...

Dany doesn't say she is the bride of fire, she says she is the bride of dragons:

 

Surely her ascension was in Khal Drogo's funeral pyre with the three dragons

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

And a random thought about the name R'hllor.  Martin has joked about nobody knowing how to pronounce R'hllor.  If it's a matter of pronunciation, then names liked Rhaegar, Rhaella, Rhaenrys etc., may sound one way when spoken in the common tongue and another when spoken with an accent in another tongue.  Hence you might get a different sound indicated by the apostrophe and that's all it means.  R'haegar, R'haella, R'haenrys.  It looks to me like R'hllor fits a Targ naming convention.

It may be the slightly other way around. R'llor is actually an "old" name recycled by GRRM, which he originally used as one of two mismatched Fafnir and Grey Mouser style adventurers and as I recall was eventually eaten, though the other guy survived - it was a long time ago so I don't remember the details. 

Anyway, he obviously liked the name enough to re-use it and may well have expanded the "family" in the way you suggest, especially if the Valyrians worshiped R'llor.

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