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Heresy 235 The Winter Snow


Black Crow

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3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Surely her ascension was in Khal Drogo's funeral pyre with the three dragons

I don't think she touched the light, whatever that means.  I think she saw Drogo's soul ascend.

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9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

It may be the slightly other way around. R'llor is actually an "old" name recycled by GRRM, which he originally used as one of two mismatched Fafnir and Grey Mouser style adventurers and as I recall was eventually eaten, though the other guy survived - it was a long time ago so I don't remember the details. 

Anyway, he obviously liked the name enough to re-use it and may well have expanded the "family" in the way you suggest, especially if the Valyrians worshiped R'llor.

I failed to find a reference to R'hllor in early GRRM's work, but I could find Saagael in 1967 Only Kids are Afraid of the Dark within the world where Doctor Weird exists as a ghost that fights evil. ASOIAF seems to borrow a lot from this very short story.

TLDR: a ghost fights a demon by using the husks of men.

-Jasper and Willie steal a sacred ruby from some natives and while on the run they hide in an abandoned black stone temple

-They lit a fire in the temple and Willie goes to sleep over an elevated stone. Jasper murders Willie with a knife over what is really an altar.

-The blood and fire sacrifice frees Saagael:

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“I am Saagael, Prince of Demons, Lord of Darkness, King of Corlos, unquestioned Sovereign of the Netherworld. I am Saagael, he whom your ancestors called the Soul-Destroyer. And you have called me.”

-Saagael consumes Jasper's soul leaving an empty husk that reminds me of Drogo and later Jaffer Flowers.

-The worshippers of Saagael flock to the temple while Saagael roams the world consuming souls.

-Doctor Weird uses Jasper's husk to trick and trap Saagael once more into the black stone.

Now for the comparisons between Jasper and Drogo. This is when Doctor Weird finds Jasper's husk:

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It was a man—or what remained of one. Tall, lean, and muscular, it lay unmoving on the floor and stared from unseeing eyes. A heart beat, and lungs inhaled, but there was no other motion. No will stirred this creature; no instincts prompted it. It lay still and silent, eyes focused vacantly on the ceiling; a discarded, empty shell.

It was a thing without a mind—or a soul.

And this is when Dany finds Drogo after the ritual:

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He was lying on the bare red earth, staring up at the sun.

A dozen bloodflies had settled on his body, though he did not seem to feel them. Dany brushed them away and knelt beside him. His eyes were wide open but did not see, and she knew at once that he was blind. When she whispered his name, he did not seem to hear. The wound on his breast was as healed as it would ever be, the scar that covered it grey and red and hideous.

“He seems to like the warmth, Princess,” Ser Jorah said. “His eyes follow the sun, though he does not see it. He can walk after a fashion. He will go where you lead him, but no farther. He will eat if you put food in his mouth, drink if you dribble water on his lips.”

We also have an almost verbatim copy about Jasper and Jaffer Flowers.

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The darkness cleared and Doctor Weird could see again. He stood alone in the empty temple. Saagael was gone, as were the remains of the vanquished demon. Only he and the thing that had once been a man called Jasper remained amongst the silence, and the darkness, and the dust.

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The other wight, the one-handed thing that had once been a ranger named Jafer Flowers, had also been destroyed

Saagael makes an appearance in Blood&Fire as a Valyrian god:

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All this the court and kingdom might have come to accept in time, had Lady Larra not also insisted upon keeping her own gods. She would have no part in the worship of the Seven, nor the old gods of the northmen. Her worship was reserved for certain of the manifold gods of Lys: the six-breasted cat goddess Pantera, Yndros of the Twilight who was male by day and female by night, the pale child Bakkalon of the Sword, faceless Saagael, the giver of pain.

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It was even said that Larra herself could transform into a cat, to prowl the gutters and rooftops of the city. Darker rumors soon arose. The acolytes of Yndros could supposedly transform themselves from male to female and female to male through the act of love, and whispers went about that her ladyship oft availed herself of this ability at twilight orgies, so she might visit the brothels on the Street of Silk as a man. And every time a child went missing, the ignorant would look at one another and talk of Saagael’s insatiable thirst for blood.

 

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Did Bran name his direwolf Summer because he himself is / will become winter?

After Rob's death he is the heir to Winterfell, the ancient seat of the Kings of Winter. Does the snowstorm rise from Winterfell to call him home?

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1 hour ago, alienarea said:

Did Bran name his direwolf Summer because he himself is / will become winter?

After Rob's death he is the heir to Winterfell, the ancient seat of the Kings of Winter. Does the snowstorm rise from Winterfell to call him home?

I think Summer is his lifeline back to the summer child. Bran peeked into his ancestors centre of power; will he be able to use the power without losing control like his ancestors? Probably not.

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2 hours ago, Tucu said:

I think Summer is his lifeline back to the summer child. Bran peeked into his ancestors centre of power; will he be able to use the power without losing control like his ancestors? Probably not.

And Summer dies ... at least in the tv show.

When Bran looked into the heart of winter, he knew what he had to do, though he didn't like it.

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On 5/1/2021 at 2:12 PM, LynnS said:

I don't think she touched the light, whatever that means.  I think she saw Drogo's soul ascend.

She might have done, but only as part of her transformation. Remember that she went into the middle of a funeral pyre and appart from her hair and clothing apparently remained unscathed. The Dragonlord who walked away is no longer human.

What's going to be interesting is to see Jon's transformation from the inside. Varamyr provided an introduction, but if Jon is to remain as a character then its going to go further. Danaerys doesn't appear to realise that she's dead. Will Jon ?

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4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

She might have done, but only as part of her transformation. Remember that she went into the middle of a funeral pyre and appart from her hair and clothing apparently remained unscathed. The Dragonlord who walked away is no longer human.

We still have Quaithe's instruction telling her that before she can move forward, she has to pass beneath the shadow and touch the light.  What's implied in Mel's ritual is that the soul is cleansed and ascends to the light.  The light seems to be something intrinsic to dragons.  Something that is accessed by going through the mouth and down the throat.  The body is consumed and the soul is devoured... for regular people anyway.

Dany was spared the agony and experienced the ecstasy in her singing dragon dream when her soul is transformed and she is made anew.  I think George said that she was given temporary immunity to fire.  She might well have died during childbirth and been given back her life by the Lord of Light and Life and Love.  At the end of Dance she is no longer immune from fire and her menses have returned.  I am not sure she is dead.  But she has been reborn as the mother of dragons and a bride of fire. 

But she is not like the other bride of fire, Melisandre. Someone else who is partially transformed.  She insists that R'hllor exists, that he is male and she has seen him.  So far, Dany has only seen the dragon,  She has yet to meet the soul of fire within the dragon, the man limned in flame.

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VI

Your brother Rhaegar was the last dragon, Ser Jorah had said. Dany gazed at her eggs sadly. What had she expected? A thousand thousand years ago they had been alive, but now they were only pretty rocks. They could not make a dragon. A dragon was air and fire. Living flesh, not dead stone.

Fire gives life to stone, Dragons are living flesh and so too is Dany living flesh.  Dany doesn't bleed black blood, her eyes are still purple, she needs to eat and drink and sleep to survive. 

Melisandre experiences hunger and thirst, but doesn't need to eat, drink or sleep to exist.  The fire sustains her and gives her life.  I'm guessing that her sacrifices to R'hllor are also a cover for taking the life force of those she sacrifices into herself.  A function of the ruby in her throat.  I don't know if Mel' soul has been transformed but certainly her flesh has been. 

Dany seems to be undergoing an entirely different transformation.  One that I think will end up in her own Luke Skywalker moment:

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"… the dragon …"

And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. "The last dragon," Ser Jorah's voice whispered faintly. "The last, the last." Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.

Fiery eyes within black armor sounds like a black dragon to me.  Dany's trajectory may be to ascend and become a dragon god(ess), to become the soul of fire herself.

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

What's going to be interesting is to see Jon's transformation from the inside. Varamyr provided an introduction, but if Jon is to remain as a character then its going to go further. Danaerys doesn't appear to realise that she's dead. Will Jon ?

Jon is dead at the end of DwD as far as I'm concerned because he represents the counterpoint to Dany.  The Other, death and dark and hate.  I do think he will become the soul of ice.  Will he know that he is dead?  Yes, I think so, seeing his own body through Ghost's eyes.  Jon's soul is anchored to Ghost and he is close by.  Was Varamyr anchored to anything after attempting to take Thistle's body.  His bond with all his close familiars was broken and he ends up in the last  closest warg connection.

But I wonder about his Stark blood and if he will be drawn to Winterfell as Ned's ghost was, whatever the frozen hell reserved for Starks happens to be..  Or if he will be drawn to the place Bran visited north and north and north.  A death worse than death to quote Dany; howling alone in the darkness.

Sooner or later, he will be drawn into Ghost and this is the point where Bran can then speak to him.  How Jon will be returned to his own body, may be a part of the terrible knowledge that Bran has seen in the 3rd eye of the 3EC.   

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A question to consider is that unlike Danaerys Jon doesn't dream of dragons.

He does, however dream of fighting and slaying people while dressed in armour of black ice - but is it armour or is his whole body formed of Ice like Craster's boys?

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14 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

A question to consider is that unlike Danaerys Jon doesn't dream of dragons.

He does, however dream of fighting and slaying people while dressed in armour of black ice - but is it armour or is his whole body formed of Ice like Craster's boys?

Good question. I'm guessing he will be the Coldhands version of a sort in that he has a body to go back to.  Not sure the same can be said about Craster's babes.  Will he have blue blood and will his flesh and bone be turned to ice?  That would be interesting.  .  

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22 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

A question to consider is that unlike Danaerys Jon doesn't dream of dragons.

He does, however dream of fighting and slaying people while dressed in armour of black ice - but is it armour or is his whole body formed of Ice like Craster's boys?

The Wild Hunt led by Rhaegar was also armored in snow while mist swirled around them (not that far from a WW). Rhaegar also "burned" with a cold light (similar to a glass candle)

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17 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The Wild Hunt led by Rhaegar was also armored in snow while mist swirled around them (not that far from a WW). Rhaegar also "burned" with a cold light (similar to a glass candle)

I don't recall this as one of Dany's dreams.  Was it Jaime's dream?

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A Storm of Swords - Daenerys III

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

She woke suddenly in the darkness of her cabin, still flush with triumph. Balerion seemed to wake with her, and she heard the faint creak of wood, water lapping against the hull, a football on the deck above her head. And something else.

The question is who is the usurper in this dream?  Stannis, Aegon, Cersei, Euron?    

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Just now, LynnS said:

I don't recall this as one of Dany's dreams.  Was it Jaime's dream?

 

Yes:

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He saw them too. They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders. The visors of their helms were closed, but Jaime Lannister did not need to look upon their faces to know them.

<...>

Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

<...>

The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound.

<...>

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark.

Overall the description is not that different from the WW in the prologue:

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A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took.

 

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2 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Overall the description is not that different from the WW in the prologue:

How strange!  The White Cloaks armored in snow.  I wonder if this is foreshadowing of what will become of Jaime.  I can see him ending up at the Wall at some point. 

5 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark.

Going back to the OP; I wonder if Rhaegar is a stand-in for Jon; especially if Jon is his offspring.   What would happen if Jaime should learn this about Jon?  Would he be bound by oath to Rhaegar's blood?

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13 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The question is who is the usurper in this dream?  Stannis, Aegon, Cersei, Euron?    

A vision of future WW Stannis or WW Jon? A vision of Rhaegar from an alternative timeline?

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Just now, Tucu said:

A vision of future WW Stannis or WW Jon? A vision of Rhaegar from an alternative timeline?

An army of men can be covered in black ice.  Steel that is colder than the ambient temperature will form black ice in a mist or rain.  I don't see Stannis coming back as a WW if Mel has anything to do with it.   I think Jon will be bound to the Wall and perhaps Winterfell.  I'm not sure he will be going after the Iron Throne.  His duty may be to protect the weirwood throne and Bran.

Dany seems to be channeling Rhaegar at the last battle of the Trident where he should have won, but died.  She's getting a do-over.

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On 4/27/2021 at 12:06 PM, Matthew. said:

As a slight addition to the sacrifice angle for tPtwP, I'd like to shout out a theory that Armstark posted here several years ago that I thought was pretty neat, partially based on this fragment from the World Book that is about the Tragedy at Summerhall:


If I recall correctly, his idea was that this hints toward the end of the Dunk and Egg tales--That Rhaella was still pregnant with Rhaegar (but soon to give birth), and that Egg intended for Rhaegar to suffer the same fate that Rhaego ultimately suffers, and be the sacrifice that quickens the stone eggs, and that Dunk may have been forced to betray Egg to save Rhaella and the unborn Rhaegar; this, in turn is part of why Rhaegar lives under the shadow of Summerhall, and is so connected to the prophesy, as he was meant to be a sacrifice.

For what I can remember this may have been the idea that led me down the path that the tower of joy was GRRM’s version of the Valley of Hinnom, Gehenna.  

After all, if Rhaegar was meant as a sacrifice at Summerhall then it stands to reason that if Rhaegar was in fact preparing his own version of Summerhall, then he might also need a child sacrifice.  

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38 minutes ago, LynnS said:

An army of men can be covered in black ice.  Steel that is colder than the ambient temperature will form black ice in a mist or rain.  I don't see Stannis coming back as a WW if Mel has anything to do with it.   I think Jon will be bound to the Wall and perhaps Winterfell.  I'm not sure he will be going after the Iron Throne.  His duty may be to protect the weirwood throne and Bran.

Dany seems to be channeling Rhaegar at the last battle of the Trident where he should have won, but died.  She's getting a do-over.

Stannis is one of my bets as in Asha's chapters he is the one becoming a skull and melting; and his army of Northmen is becoming less and less human looking as the ice cakes on their beards. I think the action will move to the South after the incoming Winterfell disaster. "Winter is marching south" and so will the Northmen.

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In regards to the discussion of origin of GRRM’s Azor Ahai, I wonder if it is partly inspired by the King of Judah, Ahaz.

King Ahaz was known through his practice of sacrificing his son to fire.  2 Kings 16:3

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But he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, yea, and made his son to pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the heathen, whom the Lord cast out from before the children of Israel.

And he sacrificed and offered in the high places, and on the hills, and under every leafy tree.

Apparently the term “pass through fire” is a euphemism for a sacrificial burning in fire.  So in other words the King of Judah would pass his son (a prince) through the fire.  (A Prince’s pass through fire).

And the god that Ahaz was sacrificing his child to was Moloch.  Who was often depicted as a man with the head of a bull.  (Hello Gerold).  In fact there has been iconography showing a giant statue of a bull headed man with furnace inside the open mouth where the sacrifices were placed.

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32 minutes ago, LynnS said:

An army of men can be covered in black ice.  Steel that is colder than the ambient temperature will form black ice in a mist or rain.

I have some doubts about what the black ice will be.

Because steel armor should be pretty useless against the others. If their weapons shatter swords I can't see steel armors faring much better. Some frozen material on the other hand should be able to handle  attacks from the others.

And some kind of obsidian armors kind of come to mind. After all obsidian should be pretty sturdy.

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15 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

After all, if Rhaegar was meant as a sacrifice at Summerhall then it stands to reason that if Rhaegar was in fact preparing his own version of Summerhall, then he might also need a child sacrifice.

This is when I wonder if Rhaegar's soul was bound to one of the eggs at Summerhall and when he died his soul went into the black egg in Dany's possession.  To be wakened in exchange for Rhaegal's life.  If this is the reason that the dragon is exultant in Dany's dream, says that it has only just awakened, should have prevailed at the Trident, if only there were dragons..   

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