Heresy 235 The Winter Snow

[Black Crow]

20 minutes ago, LynnS said:

That's my thinking.  Although I'm not sure you have to be a fire wight to make a burning sword.  Beric and Thoros use their own blood to set their swords on fire.  The defining act in making Lightbringer was to plunge it into Nissa Nissa's heart.  I'm not sure if his beloved wife is a red priestess or a dragon, but to my mind, someone or something who is transformed by holy blood.  It's this act that makes LB perpetually warm to the touch according to Aemon and his source, the Jade Compendium.  While Beric and Thoros are acting out that part of the legend, there is a degree of difference. 

I do think a durable sword can be used to create a sword that is afterwards warm to the touch; but the act that creates it will be something akin to the actual forging of the sword requiring a sacrifice.  Whether or not you have to be a fire wight to use it is another question.  Something tells me that the sword transforms the man or woman, since Syrio Forell tells us that you can't separate the sword from the one who wields it.        

Indeed, and as the Reeds tell us Ice can burn. The point once again is that we're not talking about a vision of the future but a dream and rather than looking for an unlikely excuse like obsidian armour, the question to be considered is why Jon dreams of wearing armour of Ice.

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

That's my thinking.  Although I'm not sure you have to be a fire wight to make a burning sword.  Beric and Thoros use their own blood to set their swords on fire.  The defining act in making Lightbringer was to plunge it into Nissa Nissa's heart.  I'm not sure if his beloved wife is a red priestess or a dragon, but to my mind, someone or something who is transformed by holy blood.  It's this act that makes LB perpetually warm to the touch according to Aemon and his source, the Jade Compendium.  While Beric and Thoros are acting out that part of the legend, there is a degree of difference. 

I do think a durable sword can be used to create a sword that is afterwards warm to the touch; but the act that creates it will be something akin to the actual forging of the sword requiring a sacrifice.  Whether or not you have to be a fire wight to use it is another question.  Something tells me that the sword transforms the man or woman, since Syrio Forell tells us that you can't separate the sword from the one who wields it.        

I agree with the broader point, and the speculation I offered is my most mundane Lightbringer theory--namely, that there's no need to forge a magical sword because there's already several of them within the narrative.

That said, the more intriguing road is the one you offer, that a true Lightbringer demands a sacrifice, and we have several options that could be notable because of some magical fire aspect inherent to them (Dany, Mel, the dragons), or it could have to do more with the personal connection between the person/creature being sacrificed, and the one doing the forging.

On the more crackpotty end of the spectrum, I've offered up my own Lightbringer 2.0 scenario in the past, and it goes roughly like this:

- Jaime is not to be summarily executed by Stoneheart early in tWoW, but rather, given a mission: retrieve the other half of Ice, Widow's Wail, from Lannister possession and return it to her

- Ice, the traditional tool of Stark justice, will be re-forged by Gendry (who trained under Tobho Mott, and hypothetically might have learned how to rework Valyrian steel) out of Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail

- As Stoneheart's first task for the remade sword, she'll order Brienne to execute Jaime; instead, Brienne will choose to turn the sword against Stoneheart, and the blade will "drink" the animating fire that was passed to her by Beric, and become a true Lightbringer 2.0

Symbolic reasons for this would be what the sacrifice means to Brienne personally - to kill Catelyn, even in revenant form, is a betrayal of the oaths and honor that mean so much to her - and the broader context of Eddard's sword returning and slaying his wife.

I haven't been able to get anyone else on board for my theory, but I still like it 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

I haven't been able to get anyone else on board for my theory, but I still like it 

Well, I like it.  Brienne is high on my list of candidates to dispatch LSH.  She might only need the sword currently in her possession.  And woe to Mel if Jon ever dispatches her using Longclaw.

[Tucu]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Indeed, and as the Reeds tell us Ice can burn. The point once again is that we're not talking about a vision of the future but a dream and rather than looking for an unlikely excuse like obsidian armour, the question to be considered is why Jon dreams of wearing armour of Ice.

I like pulling the little threads in the books; here are the things that were armored in ice and the references to black ice.

The white shadows (that aren't really that white):

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A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees.

(BTW their eyes "burn"):

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Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice.

A weirwood (or the pale shadow of a weirwood if you parse the sentence differently):

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He could see the humped shapes of other huts buried beneath drifts of snow, and beyond them the pale shadow of a weirwood armored in ice

Rhaegar and his shades:

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He saw them too. They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders. The visors of their helms were closed, but Jaime Lannister did not need to look upon their faces to know them.

<...>

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark

Two rocks next to a frozen stream:

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The riders crossed a frozen stream, between two jagged rocks armored in ice,

The usurpers' host:

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Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice

For references to black ice we have the cracks in the Wall:

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He watched the cracks along the Wall go from red to grey to black, from streaks of fire to rivers of black ice

 

[LynnS]

19 hours ago, Matthew. said:

On the more crackpotty end of the spectrum, I've offered up my own Lightbringer 2.0 scenario in the past, and it goes roughly like this:

- Jaime is not to be summarily executed by Stoneheart early in tWoW, but rather, given a mission: retrieve the other half of Ice, Widow's Wail, from Lannister possession and return it to her

- Ice, the traditional tool of Stark justice, will be re-forged by Gendry (who trained under Tobho Mott, and hypothetically might have learned how to rework Valyrian steel) out of Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail

- As Stoneheart's first task for the remade sword, she'll order Brienne to execute Jaime; instead, Brienne will choose to turn the sword against Stoneheart, and the blade will "drink" the animating fire that was passed to her by Beric, and become a true Lightbringer 2.0

Symbolic reasons for this would be what the sacrifice means to Brienne personally - to kill Catelyn, even in revenant form, is a betrayal of the oaths and honor that mean so much to her - and the broader context of Eddard's sword returning and slaying his wife.

I do like your cracked pots.  The idea that LSH wants Ned's sword back in it's original form would be satisfying to me as a reader.  Gendry has to have some purpose and I'm not sure what that will be.  As Tohbo Mott's apprentice, it's entirely possible that he may know something about forging valyrian steel.  

That Brienne would end up with the sword is also satisfying.  I see her as one of the few candidates to come into possession of a legendary sword.  Up until now, I thought that would the Dawn Sword.  Well, I still think she will end up with that sword.  House Dayne may be the keeper of the sword and traditionally it goes to a Dayne.  But Martin has said, it will go to one who is worthy of it.  It mat be that Edric passes it to Brienne at some point, if he returns to the BwB.  She seems to be headed on the path as the most worthy knight.

Her personal banner is a tree with a falling star and if she joins up with the Faith Militant at some point; their banner is the bloody star.  So reborn beneath a falling/bloody star.

To my mind, there could be several swords that end up in the category of legendary sword in the story, remade through magic of some sort.

The main difference between LSH and Danny is that the hatred and darkness hasn't been burned out of  LSH by the fire within.  She seems to be an instrument of the gods who have been affronted by the violation of guest rights and other offences.  There is no love in her.  Same with Mel, who is the Mother of Shadows.

I think the sacrifice falls into the category of 'the things we do for/to love.  It isn't so much the AA sacrificed his wife, as it is Nissa Nissa sacrificing herself for love.

The Undying words come to mind:

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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

"Three?" She did not understand.

. . . three heads has the dragon . . . the ghost chorus yammered inside her skull with never a lip moving, never a breath stirring the still blue air. . . . mother of dragons . . . child of storm . . . The whispers became a swirling song. . . . three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love . . . Her own heart was beating in unison to the one that floated before her, blue and corrupt . . . three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love . . . The voices were growing louder, she realized, and it seemed her heart was slowing, and even her breath. . . . three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love . . .

 

 

[Matthew.]

On 5/7/2021 at 2:39 PM, LynnS said:

She might only need the sword currently in her possession. 

True, and in terms of narrative structure that's certainly more succinct and elegant than if Jaime had to travel from Point A, to Point B, to Point A again. And, as far as character significance goes, Oathkeeper is the more important sword--in both name, and its connection between Jaime, Brienne, and Catelyn.
 

On 5/8/2021 at 9:37 AM, LynnS said:

House Dayne may be the keeper of the sword and traditionally it goes to a Dayne.  But Martin has said, it will go to one who is worthy of it.  It mat be that Edric passes it to Brienne at some point, if he returns to the BwB.  She seems to be headed on the path as the most worthy knight.

An interesting point, and I'd totally forgotten about Edric Dayne still being with the BwB; as you say, if there's anyone who aspires to the ideal of what knighthood represents within the story, it's Brienne (well, her and Barristan). Bran recalls Eddard referring to Arthur Dayne as the "finest knight," and we know that Eddard values more than just martial prowess.

[alienarea]

4 hours ago, Matthew. said:

True, and in terms of narrative structure that's certainly more succinct and elegant than if Jaime had to travel from Point A, to Point B, to Point A again. And, as far as character significance goes, Oathkeeper is the more important sword--in both name, and its connection between Jaime, Brienne, and Catelyn.
 

An interesting point, and I'd totally forgotten about Edric Dayne still being with the BwB; as you say, if there's anyone who aspires to the ideal of what knighthood represents within the story, it's Brienne (well, her and Barristan). Bran recalls Eddard referring to Arthur Dayne as the "finest knight," and we know that Eddard values more than just martial prowess.

Your finest knight comment made me wonder whether Arthur Dayne is the Lancelot to Rhaegar's Arthur?

[Tucu]

IIRC sometime ago we discussed the Arthurian poem Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. There is a movie adaptation coming soon and new trailer:

 

[LynnS]

Woo hoo! I wanna see that!

[Black Crow]

Tasty, very tasty. A Song of Ice and Fire it aint, but its much nearer to it than the Game of Thrones

[LynnS]

28 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Tasty, very tasty. A Song of Ice and Fire it aint, but its much nearer to it than the Game of Thrones

Hah! The Knight of the Laughing Tree. who tests the quality of a knight's honor.

[Tucu]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

Hah! The Knight of the Laughing Tree. who tests the quality of a knight's honor.

If Howland (as a link to the Green Men) tested Arthur Dayne, did he let Arthur live? or was the finest knight still a soiled knight?

[LynnS]

46 minutes ago, Tucu said:

If Howland (as a link to the Green Men) tested Arthur Dayne, did he let Arthur live? or was the finest knight still a soiled knight?

According to Ned, he is still the finest knight.  The question on my mind is whether Jaimie is the soiled knight who aspires to be the finest knight after Arthur Dayne.   And whether he will be tested by the Laughing Tree.

[Frey family reunion]

15 minutes ago, LynnS said:

According to Ned, he is still the finest knight.  The question on my mind is whether Jaimie is the soiled knight who aspires to be the finest knight after Arthur Dayne.   And whether he will be tested by the Laughing Tree.

Well he's about to be brought before Lady Stoneheart, who in my opinion has had the strongest imagery associated with the Green Knight:

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Beside the entrance, the king's armor stood sentry; a suit of forest green plate, its fittings chased with gold, the helm crowned by a great rack of golden antlers.  The steel was polished to such a high sheen that she could see her reflection in the breastplate, gazing back at her as if from the bottom of a deep green pond.  The face of a drowned woman, Catelyn thought.  Can you drown in grief?

Cat's death and resurection also parallels the Green Knight.  Both even got their throat slashed, just the cut to the Green Knight's throat went, um, much deeper.

[Black Crow]

46 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Well he's about to be brought before Lady Stoneheart, who in my opinion has had the strongest imagery associated with the Green Knight:

Cat's death and resurection also parallels the Green Knight.  Both even got their throat slashed, just the cut to the Green Knight's throat went, um, much deeper.

I did say that it looks closer to GRRM's vision than the mummers' version ever did 

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

According to Ned, he is still the finest knight.  The question on my mind is whether Jaimie is the soiled knight who aspires to be the finest knight after Arthur Dayne.   And whether he will be tested by the Laughing Tree.

Some fun with the books' "finest knights".

1) Vardis Egen (Lysa's finest) died with the queen on top of him (well the statue of Queen Alyssa Arryn)

2) Jamie (Cersei's finest) bedded the queen.

3) Loras (Renly's and Margaery's finest) bedded the king.

4) Aemon the Dragonknight (the finest of them all) probably bedded the queen and fathered the next king (Daeron II). Then he was killed by the brothers of his "brother" (Terrence Toyne was a KG executed for bedding the mistress of the king)

5) Baelor was the finest of his age. We don't know of any indiscretions but he was killed by his brother.

 

[LynnS]

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A Storm of Swords - Jaime II

For a moment Jaime thought Brienne might strike him. A step closer, and I'll snatch that dagger from her sheath and bury it up her womb. He gathered a leg under him, ready to spring, but the wench did not move. "It is a rare and precious gift to be a knight," she said, "and even more so a knight of the Kingsguard. It is a gift given to few, a gift you scorned and soiled."

A gift you want desperately, wench, and can never have. "I earned my knighthood. Nothing was given to me. I won a tourney mêlée at thirteen, when I was yet a squire. At fifteen, I rode with Ser Arthur Dayne against the Kingswood Brotherhood, and he knighted me on the battlefield. It was that white cloak that soiled me, not the other way around. So spare me your envy. It was the gods who neglected to give you a cock, not me."

The look Brienne gave him then was full of loathing. She would gladly hack me to pieces, but for her precious vow, he reflected. Good. I've had enough of feeble pieties and maidens' judgments. The wench stalked off without saying a word. Jaime curled up beneath his cloak, hoping to dream of Cersei.

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A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

Summed up like that, his life seemed a rather scant and mingy thing. Ser Barristan could have recorded a few of his other tourney victories, at least. And Ser Gerold might have written a few more words about the deeds he'd performed when Ser Arthur Dayne broke the Kingswood Brotherhood. He had saved Lord Sumner's life as Big Belly Ben was about to smash his head in, though the outlaw had escaped him. And he'd held his own against the Smiling Knight, though it was Ser Arthur who slew him. What a fight that was, and what a foe. The Smiling Knight was a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fear. And Dayne, with Dawn in hand . . . The outlaw's longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. "It's that white sword of yours I want," the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. "Then you shall have it, ser," the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it.

The world was simpler in those days, Jaime thought, and men as well as swords were made of finer steel. Or was it only that he had been fifteen? They were all in their graves now, the Sword of the Morning and the Smiling Knight, the White Bull and Prince Lewyn, Ser Oswell Whent with his black humor, earnest Jon Darry, Simon Toyne and his Kingswood Brotherhood, bluff old Sumner Crakehall. And me, that boy I was . . . when did he die, I wonder? When I donned the white cloak? When I opened Aerys's throat? That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead.

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A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

Jaime had served with Meryn Trant and Boros Blount for years; adequate fighters, but Trant was sly and cruel, and Blount a bag of growly air. Ser Balon Swann was better suited to his cloak, and of course the Knight of Flowers was supposedly all a knight should be. The fifth man was a stranger to him, this Osmund Kettleblack.

He wondered what Ser Arthur Dayne would have to say of this lot. "How is it that the Kingsguard has fallen so low," most like. "It was my doing," I would have to answer. "I opened the door, and did nothing when the vermin began to crawl inside."

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A Feast for Crows - Jaime I

None of the devout paid Jaime any mind. They made a circuit of the sept, worshiping at each of the seven altars to honor the seven aspects of the deity. To each god they made sacrifice, to each they sang a hymn. Sweet and solemn rose their voices. Jaime closed his eyes to listen, but opened them again when he began to sway. I am more weary than I knew.

It had been years since his last vigil. And I was younger then, a boy of fifteen years. He had worn no armor then, only a plain white tunic. The sept where he'd spent the night was not a third as large as any of the Great Sept's seven transepts. Jaime had laid his sword across the Warrior's knees, piled his armor at his feet, and knelt upon the rough stone floor before the altar. When dawn came his knees were raw and bloody. "All knights must bleed, Jaime," Ser Arthur Dayne had said, when he saw. "Blood is the seal of our devotion." With dawn he tapped him on the shoulder; the pale blade was so sharp that even that light touch cut through Jaime's tunic, so he bled anew. He never felt it. A boy knelt; a knight rose. The Young Lion, not the Kingslayer.

But that was long ago, and the boy was dead.

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A Feast for Crows - Jaime IV

The serving men were bringing out the fish course, a river pike baked in a crust of herbs and crushed nuts. Lancel's lady tasted it, approved, and commanded that the first portion be served to Jaime. As they set the fish before him, she leaned across her husband's place to touch his golden hand. "You could kill Lord Beric, Ser Jaime. You slew the Smiley Knight. Please, my lord, I beg you, stay and help us with Lord Beric and the Hound." Her pale fingers caressed his golden ones.

Does she think that I can feel that? "The Sword of the Morning slew the Smiling Knight, my lady. Ser Arthur Dayne, a better knight than me." Jaime pulled back his golden fingers and turned once more to Lady Mariya. "How far did Black Walder track this hooded woman and her men?"

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A Feast for Crows - Jaime IV

"Have their tongues out," urged Strongboar.

"Good luck getting answers then," said Jaime. "If you want their help, you need to make them love you. That was how Arthur Dayne did it, when we rode against the Kingswood Brotherhood. He paid the smallfolk for the food we ate, brought their grievances to King Aerys, expanded the grazing lands around their villages, even won them the right to fell a certain number of trees each year and take a few of the king's deer during the autumn. The forest folk had looked to Toyne to defend them, but Ser Arthur did more for them than the Brotherhood could ever hope to do, and won them to our side. After that, the rest was easy."

"The Lord Commander speaks wisely," said Lady Mariya. "We shall never be rid of these outlaws until the smallfolk come to love Lancel as much as they once loved my father and grandfather."

Ser Arthur is the man that Jaime wanted to become.  Now he uses Arthur as the yardstick to weigh his deeds and wonders about his own legacy, the blank pages in the White Book.  Love is the death of duty according to Aemon.  At some point Jaime will put Cersei aside and the things he does for love will have a more altruistic meaning.  

I sense the beginning of the remaking of Jaime's heart, a reclamation of his humanity, a call to duty and honor.   The question is whether will become worthy enough to 'inherit' the Dawn Sword from his previous Lord Commander.  It may be unlooked for as was the case with Jon Snow; but I have a feeling that the sword will change hands several times until it reaches him. 

[LynnS]

Was the Red Comet modelled after Shoemaker-Levy 9?  

NASA ScienceCasts: The Lasting Impacts of Comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 - YouTube

"Like the splash from throwing a rock into a pond..."

 

[alienarea]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Ser Arthur is the man that Jaime wanted to become.  Now he uses Arthur as the yardstick to weigh his deeds and wonders about his own legacy, the blank pages in the White Book.  Love is the death of duty according to Aemon.  At some point Jaime will put Cersei aside and the things he does for love will have a more altruistic meaning.  

I sense the beginning of the remaking of Jaime's heart, a reclamation of his humanity, a call to duty and honor.   The wuestion is whether will become worthy enough to 'inherit' the Dawn Sword from his previous Lord Commander.  It may be unlooked for as was the case with Jon Snow; but I have a feeling that the sword will change hands several times until it reaches him. 

I believe Jaime is one of the most multifaceted characters in the story, and maybe too many options for GRRM to decide?

As I wrote before I can imagine him to sit on the iron throne in the end, because he sat there after murdering Aerys. Back then he obviously didn't deserve it, pushing Bran, losing his hand, saving Brienne ... would make a classic redemption arc to be on the throne in the end, maybe with Brienne in his kingsguard. 

I also expeccted Bran to push him down somewhere, but that is a bit unlikely as I don't think Bran will ever leave the cave.

As a stretch I could imagine Bran warging someone else to push Jaime and Cersei to death while Daenerys sacks King's Landing, with their corpses ending on the iron throne? Because it has also been telegraphed by a mile that Jaime and Cersei go out together.

Just one of the storylines that is (too?) hard to finish.

[LynnS]

32 minutes ago, alienarea said:

I believe Jaime is one of the most multifaceted characters in the story, and maybe too many options for GRRM to decide?

I think Jaime and Cersei are parting company and Jaime will not sit on the Iron Throne.   I think his heart will be remade, or reforged if you will, into something that makes him worthy of receiving the Dawn Sword, at some point.  I think his place will be central to the War of the Dawn rather than the Iron Throne.  I have a strong intuitive sense that he will become the Warrior of Light and that the Dawn Sword is the original Lightbringer.

From Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon, Page 295:

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Martin conceived of Hodor's backstory when writing the first book in his saga, and it was one of the ideas he told the show's producers about during their season-three meeting in Santa Fe.

I wonder what other back stories GRRM conceived of in the first book.  What is being telegraphed here and reinforced by Mel's characterization of AA as the Warrior of Light?

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A Game of Thrones - Bran III

He looked south, and saw the great blue-green rush of the Trident. He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

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A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Bran was staring at his arms, his legs. He was so skinny, just skin stretched taut over bones. Had he always been so thin? He tried to remember. A face swam up at him out of the grey mist, shining with light, golden. "The things I do for love," it said.

Bran screamed.

The crow took to the air, cawing. Not that, it shrieked at him. Forget that, you do not need it now, put it aside, put it away. It landed on Bran's shoulder, and pecked at him, and the shining golden face was gone.

 

It's hard to believe this could happen with Jaime's character but I think we are going to go from loathing Jaime to weeping when he dies.

As for who sits on the Iron Throne in the end, if it still exists to sit on:

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A Game of Thrones - Jon I

"I don't even know who my mother was," Jon said.

"Some woman, no doubt. Most of them are." He favored Jon with a rueful grin. "Remember this, boy. All dwarfs may be bastards, yet not all bastards need be dwarfs." And with that he turned and sauntered back into the feast, whistling a tune. When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.

 

Methaphorically speaking; it's the light within that casts the shadow.