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Heresy 235 The Winter Snow


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5 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think Jaime and Cersei are parting company and Jaime will not sit on the Iron Throne.   I think his heart will be remade, or reforged if you will, into something that makes him worthy of receiving the Dawn Sword, at some point.  I think his place will be central to the War of the Dawn rather than the Iron Throne.  I have a strong intuitive sense that he will become the Warrior of Light and that the Dawn Sword is the original Lightbringer.

From Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon, Page 295:

I wonder what other back stories GRRM conceived of in the first book.  What is being telegraphed here and reinforced by Mel's characterization of AA as the Warrior of Light?

It's hard to believe this could happen with Jaime's character but I think we are going to go from loathing Jaime to weeping when he dies.

As for who sits on the Iron Throne in the end, if it still exists to sit on:

Methaphorically speaking; it's the light within that casts the shadow.

Found some word play in Brienne's chapter that you will enjoy:

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"Why would I lie?" she asked him. "Every place has its local heroes. Where I come from, the singers sing of Ser Galladon of Morne, the Perfect Knight."

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"Ser Galladon was a champion of such valor that the Maiden herself lost her heart to him. She gave him an enchanted sword as a token of her love. The Just Maid, it was called. No common sword could check her, nor any shield withstand her kiss. Ser Galladon bore the Just Maid proudly, but only thrice did he unsheathe her. He would not use the Maid against a mortal man, for she was so potent as to make any fight unfair."

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Brienne could not help but smile. "Perhaps," she allowed, "but Ser Galladon was no fool. Against a foe eight feet tall mounted on an aurochs, he might well have unsheathed the Just Maid. He used her once to slay a dragon, they say."

So:

-Galladon is the perfect knight. A parallel to Arthur Dayne and Jamie's aspiration at one point

-A maiden lost her heart and he got a magical sword. A parallel to Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa.

-He used the sword/maid to slay a dragon

Is this foreshadowing of  the future of Jamie and Brienne (The maid of Tarth) ?

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16 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Found some word play in Brienne's chapter that you will enjoy:

Hah!  That's great!  I'm thinking the Dawn Sword/Lightbringer changes hands a few times and will pass from the Edric Dayne, to the Just Maid, to the Perfect Knight in the end.  Another version of the AA story unfolding in unexpected ways.

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Littlefinger - show vs. books, from Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon page 271:

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BRYAN COGMAN (co-executive producer):  You have this storyline with Ramsey.  Do you have one of your leading ladies -- who is an incredibly talented actor we've followed for five years and viewers love and adore --do it?  Or do you bring in a new character to do it?  You use the character the audience is invested in.

GEORGE R.R. MARTIN:  My Littlefinger would never turn Sansa over to Ramsey.  Never,  He's obsessed with her.  Half the time he thinks she's the daughter he never had -- that he wishes he had, if he'd married Catelyn.  And half the time he thinks she is Catelyn, and he wants her for himself. He is not going to give her to somebody who would do bad things to her.  That's going to be very different in the books.  

 

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Hah!  That's great!  I'm thinking the Dawn Sword/Lightbringer changes hands a few times and will pass from the Edric Dayne, to the Just Maid, to the Perfect Knight in the end.  Another version of the AA story unfolding in unexpected ways.

Lots of sword, stars and hearts references around Brienne. Lightbringer was made from Nissa Nissa's heart; Just Maid from the heart of the Maiden, Dawn from the heart of a fallen star. In our world Lightbringer is the morning star and the evening star; Brienne is the Maid of Tarth, daughter of the Evenstar. Maybe Oathkeeper will be forged into a new Lightbringer.

Another odd reference: Cersei thinks of Tywin as a fallen star and Jamie is his heir. And as you mentioned before Jamie is associated with light.

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By the time they left Maegor's Holdfast, the sky had turned a deep cobalt blue, though the stars still shone. All but one, Cersei thought. The bright star of the west has fallen, and the nights will be darker now

 

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26 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Lots of sword, stars and hearts references around Brienne. Lightbringer was made from Nissa Nissa's heart; Just Maid from the heart of the Maiden, Dawn from the heart of a fallen star. In our world Lightbringer is the morning star and the evening star; Brienne is the Maid of Tarth, daughter of the Evenstar. Maybe Oathkeeper will be forged into a new Lightbringer.

Another odd reference: Cersei thinks of Tywin as a fallen star and Jamie is his heir. And as you mentioned before Jamie is associated with light.

Wow!  You always find the neatest stuff! :D  I'm not sure if Jaime will make a literal fiery sword out of Brienne - but I think he will be reforged in her heart into a true knight.

There are a lot of references to swords around Jon.  Here's one:

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A Storm of Swords - Jon IV

Ghost was gone when the wildings led their horses from the cave. Did he understand about Castle Black? Jon took a breath of the crisp morning air and allowed himself to hope. The eastern sky was pink near the horizon and pale grey higher up. The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south, the bright white star in its hilt blazing like a diamond in the dawn, but the blacks and greys of the darkling forest were turning once again to greens and golds, reds and russets. And above the soldier pines and oaks and ash and sentinels stood the Wall, the ice pale and glimmering beneath the dust and dirt that pocked its surface.

  It wouldn't surprise me if the Dawn Sword had a diamond in the hilt or that House Dayne's words are:

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A Feast for Crows - Cersei VI

"Seven save His Grace. Long may he reign." The High Septon made a steeple of his hands and raised his eyes to heaven. "Let the wicked tremble!"

   

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44 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Wow!  You always find the neatest stuff! :D  I'm not sure if Jaime will make a literal fiery sword out of Brienne - but I think he will be reforged in her heart into a true knight.

There are a lot of references to swords around Jon.  Here's one:

  It wouldn't surprise me if the Dawn Sword had a diamond in the hilt or that House Dayne's words are:

   

So Jamie, Brienne and Jon are 3 living swords being forged and 3 lights. 3 Lightbringers?

Jon, Arthur, Jamie and Brienne became swords and shields via their oaths. The KGs are the White Swords and are sworn shields. Brienne's oath to Renly made her his Blue sword and shield. And Jon swore his oath to the NW:

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I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men.

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Tucu said:

So Jamie, Brienne and Jon are 3 living swords being forged and 3 lights. 3 Lightbringers?

Jon, Arthur, Jamie and Brienne became swords and shields via their oaths. The KGs are the White Swords and are sworn shields. Brienne's oath to Renly made her his Blue sword and shield. And Jon swore his oath to the NW:

Could be.  Although the oath features a sword, a horn and a shield. 

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A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

The table itself was old weirwood, pale as bone, carved in the shape of a huge shield supported by three white stallions. By tradition the Lord Commander sat at the top of the shield, and the brothers three to a side, on the rare occasions when all seven were assembled. The book that rested by his elbow was massive; two feet tall and a foot and a half wide, a thousand pages thick, fine white vellum bound between covers of bleached white leather with gold hinges and fastenings. The Book of the Brothers was its formal name, but more often it was simply called the White Book.

 

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22 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Could be.  Although the oath features a sword, a horn and a shield. 

 

I never noticed this before: Jamie has a horn-blower with a named horn:

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Ser Addam's outriders had reported that the gates of Harrenhal were closed and barred. Jaime drew his men up before them and commanded Ser Kennos of Kayce to sound the Horn of Herrock, black and twisted and banded in old gold.

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By the time Jaime and his column reached the castle, all of them had fled within the walls. He found Darry closed to him, just as Harrenhal had been. A chilly welcome from mine own blood.

"Sound the horn," he commanded. Ser Kennos of Kayce unslung the Horn of Herrock and let it wind

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At the ford, Ser Kennos of Kayce blew the Horn of Herrock. That should bring the Blackfish to the battlements

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Jaime was about to command Ser Kennos to sound the Horn of Herrock when the drawbridge began to descend.

Lord Tytos Blackwood met him in the outer ward, mounted on a destrier as gaunt as himself

No idea if it means something but it is curious.

 

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12 hours ago, LynnS said:

I I have a strong intuitive sense that he will become the Warrior of Light and that the Dawn Sword is the original Lightbringer.  

 

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Tucu said "So Jamie, Brienne and Jon are 3 living swords being forged and 3 lights. 3 Lightbringers?"

If Jamie becomes a Warrior of Light, how long would that last and what would he accomplish?   There is thought in the fandom that Theon's feast of the dead at WF, Jon's crypt dream and Jaime's crypt/Rhaegar's shade/Bri and the fiery sword dreams are all connected.   I agree with these thoughts.   

Can dreams be predictive?  Jamie's weirwood dream has he and Bri with fiery swords.    Bri tells Jamie that he dies when the fire goes out and his fire does not last long. Jamie's fire goes out while Bri's still burns.  

Jon in his dream notes "A light has gone out somewhere."  Which is thought to indicate Jamie's now dark sword.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, just it seems if Jamie has any kind of Warrior of Light or Lightbringer experience, it won't last long, and neither will Jamie.

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6 hours ago, LongRider said:

If Jamie becomes a Warrior of Light, how long would that last and what would he accomplish?   There is thought in the fandom that Theon's feast of the dead at WF, Jon's crypt dream and Jaime's crypt/Rhaegar's shade/Bri and the fiery sword dreams are all connected.   I agree with these thoughts.   

Can dreams be predictive?  Jamie's weirwood dream has he and Bri with fiery swords.    Bri tells Jamie that he dies when the fire goes out and his fire does not last long. Jamie's fire goes out while Bri's still burns.  

Jon in his dream notes "A light has gone out somewhere."  Which is thought to indicate Jamie's now dark sword.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, just it seems if Jamie has any kind of Warrior of Light or Lightbringer experience, it won't last long, and neither will Jamie.

That would match the Venus cycle as the morning star and the evening star. This is the Venus visibility in 2021:

Mornings: January 1 to March 25th (Best seen January 1 to 23; in the eastern sky)

Evenings: March 26 to December 31 (Best seen May 24 to December 31; in the western sky at dusk)

One lasts longer than the other.

BTW, In ASOIAF the Evenstar lives in the east and Dawn is kept in the west; maybe someday we will get an explanation.

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8 hours ago, LongRider said:

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, just it seems if Jamie has any kind of Warrior of Light or Lightbringer experience, it won't last long, and neither will Jamie.

Hi LongRider! :D  So Jaime's weirwood stump dream...  first, I think there are only two actors in the dream, Jaime and the Many Faced God who confronts and accuses Jaime in the guise of those he knew and family members.  This is after he has left Brienne to her fate and in some peril unknown to him. He is aware that he las lost his sword hand, but in his dream, his hand has been given back to him. An aspect of Tywin tells Jaime that he has been given a sword.  This is before Jaime reaches Kingslanding and Tywin gives him the remade valyrian sword.  The sword he has been given is not the one he sees in his hand.  The sword is Brienne.   Both swords they hold are emitting a light.  Jaimie is told that if her light goes out, then his will as well.  Then the light in his sword goes but strangely, hers becomes brighter.

Jaime has been forewarned that his fate is tied to Brienne's fate and on waking he rushes back to Harrenhal and saves Brienne.  What follows is that he gives Brienne his sword, raises her up and makes her the keeper of his oath and his honor.  Instead of the Smiling Knight who mocked and scorned her for wanting to be in the Kings Guard; he makes her his sword, his proxy, a defacto member of the KG.  Her light is brighter. Because of his actions, his light has not been extinguished.

Theon's dream is a puzzle.  I'm not sure why he is being shown a tableau of carnage going back in history to Brandon, Rickard and Lyanna.  He's an observer, not a participant.  

Jon's dream where he can hear the feast on the other side and sense that a light has gone out somewhere is very strange.  It's as if he almost has access to the weirnet and other dreamers.

What they all have in common is some connection to Bran. I wonder if Tree-Bran affected Jon's access to him or the weirnet when he touched his third eye and made a connection to Jon.  A kind of echo or dream ripple effect.  We don't really know how powerful Jon will become at this point. 

With Theon, someone on the general forum (I can't remember who); suggested that Theon might become Bran's prophet at some point.  I think that's brilliant considering how close Theon comes to lifting the veil at Ramsey's wedding.

So I think Jaime is still on track to become the warrior of light, but he has a ways to go before he is worthy.  I expect that Bran has a use for him in the war of the dawn.

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3 hours ago, Tucu said:

BTW, In ASOIAF the Evenstar lives in the east and Dawn is kept in the west; maybe someday we will get an explanation.

I'm guessing that Martin is modelling The Sword of the Morning, that Jon sees hanging in the sky, after Orion's Sword.

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Orion is most famously depicted from the Greek myths, as a hunter in the sky, wielding a shield in the right hand and a sword in the left. In the northern hemisphere, Orion means the return of colder weather.

Where is Orion the Hunter in the night sky?

The iconic shape of “Orion the Hunter” is instantly recognizable, is well placed in the night sky for observers in both the northern and southern hemispheres. Orion the Hunter rises over a forest landscape in the Winter.

Orion's sword hangs below Orion's belt.

orion.jpg (1188×964) (astrobackyard.com)

Orion's Belt points to Sirius.

Orion's Belt points to Sirius | Tonight | EarthSky

The Belt of Venus:

Belt of Venus - Facts and Information - World of Phenomena

 

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33 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Jon's dream where he can hear the feast on the other side and sense that a light has gone out somewhere is very strange.  It's as if he almost has access to the weirnet and other dreamers.

What they all have in common is some connection to Bran.

It's been suggested all three dreams take place in WF:  Theon's in the great feasting hall, Jon's in the crypts, and Jamie's?

He doesn't recognize the dark cavernous space with the water seeping in.  Below WF crypts, perhaps?  All of the dreams deal with death and ghosts and each has a visit from a ferocious direwolf.  

Jamie's sleeping on WW stump so a BR/Bran connection is possible.  Jon and Theon are terrified by their dreams, only Jamie has a symbolic death when his light goes out.

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8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm guessing that Martin is modelling The Sword of the Morning, that Jon sees hanging in the sky, after Orion's Sword.

Orion's sword hangs below Orion's belt.

orion.jpg (1188×964) (astrobackyard.com)

I think he merged both Venus and Orion. As you say the sword part points to Orion. The light part seems to point to Venus as the morning star. Arthur Dayne is The Sword of the Morning that brings Dawn with him. Venus was called Lucifer in latin (light-bringer) and in Greek it was called Phosphoros (light-bringer again) but also Heosphorus (dawn-bringer).

 

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14 minutes ago, LongRider said:

It's been suggested all three dreams take place in WF:  Theon's in the great feasting hall, Jon's in the crypts, and Jamie's?

Umm, I don't know.  I had the sense that Jaime was in the caverns beneath Casterly Rock since he also sees the line of his ancestors going back to Lann the Clever.  Oddly Tywin, Cersei and Joffrey are counted among the dead even though they are not yet dead and Myrcella and Tommen are missing.

Standing in water might be akin to standing in a pool or river of time, which is Bran's milieu.   

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17 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I think he merged both Venus and Orion. As you say the sword part points to Orion. The light part seems to point to Venus as the morning star. Arthur Dayne is The Sword of the Morning that brings Dawn with him. Venus was called Lucifer in latin (light-bringer) and in Greek it was called Phosphoros (light-bringer again) but also Heosphorus (dawn-bringer).

 

Hah! Lucifer, the fallen angel.  Golden and beautiful.  Jaime certainly fits the bill for Bran's Lucifer.  He pushed him out a window.  But without that act, Bran would never have had the coma dream or gone North of the Wall.

Same with Theon.  If Theon hadn't taken Winterfell and claimed to have captured Bran and Rickon, faking their deaths;  they would have been hunted by Ramsey and others.

 

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26 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Jon and Theon are terrified by their dreams, only Jamie has a symbolic death when his light goes out.

Well Jaime does have to die to be reborn.  The sword is broken and has to be reforged in the heart of a lion.

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5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Well Jaime does have to die to be reborn

True, still, I don't remember Theon or Jon dying in any dream, and look what happened to Jon!    

  :P

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9 minutes ago, LongRider said:

True, still, I don't remember Theon or Jon dying in any dream, and look what happened to Jon!    

  :P

At the end of Dance,  Jon dies and Theon is about to be sacrificed, either to the Red God or to the Old Gods.  I'm not sure your point.. All of three are going to be remade in some fashion.

I'll have to catch up later.  Need some to run some errands. 

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