Heresy 235 The Winter Snow

[LongRider]

39 minutes ago, LynnS said:

At the end of Dance,  Jon dies and Theon is about to be sacrificed, either to the Red God or to the Old Gods. 

I would argue neither Jon’s death nor Theon as a sacrifice is a given.  Really my issue is I’m having trouble with Jamie going from MIA to Lightbringer.  

He wants to become like Arthur Dane but will he?  I would think his encounter with LS will determine how the rest of his story goes. 

 

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, LongRider said:

It's been suggested all three dreams take place in WF:  Theon's in the great feasting hall, Jon's in the crypts, and Jamie's?

He doesn't recognize the dark cavernous space with the water seeping in.  Below WF crypts, perhaps?  All of the dreams deal with death and ghosts and each has a visit from a ferocious direwolf.  

Jamie's sleeping on WW stump so a BR/Bran connection is possible.  Jon and Theon are terrified by their dreams, only Jamie has a symbolic death when his light goes out.

I dunno.  Jon and Theon certainly have complicated, very personal relationships with Winterfell.  Jaime doesn’t

And everything seen in Jaime’s dreams were all intensely personal for him.  Tywin, Cersei, Lannister ancestors, Rhaegar, his former Kingsguard brothers.  And of course Brienne.

I do find this bit a little amusing.  It was Jaime’s dream that prompted him to return to Harrenhal and rescue Brienne.  After which Steelshanks confronts Jaime:

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Not until they were half a league from Harrenhal and out of range of archers on the walls did Steelshanks Walton let his anger show. “Are you mad, Kingslayer? Did you mean to die? No man can fight a bear with his bare hands!”
“One bare hand and one bare stump,” Jaime corrected. 

So turning back to the “pillow” under Jaime’s head when he had his dream:

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Qyburn had brought a skin of dreamwine, thankfully. While Walton set the watches, Jaime stretched out near the fire and propped a rolled-up bearskin against a stump as a pillow for his head.

His pillow was basically a bear stump.  Which prompted him to face a bear with a bare stump.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, LongRider said:

He wants to become like Arthur Dane but will he?  I would think his encounter with LS will determine how the rest of his story goes. 

[LynnS]

22 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

So turning back to the “pillow” under Jaime’s head when he had his dream:

This also calls to mind High Heart and it's ring of stumps, Beric below perched on a weirwood throne.  GOHH telling Thoros that his fires will have no power and yet he raises Beric from the dead once again in that place. 

[LynnS]

18 hours ago, Tucu said:

By the time they left Maegor's Holdfast, the sky had turned a deep cobalt blue, though the stars still shone. All but one, Cersei thought. The bright star of the west has fallen, and the nights will be darker now

Here's another one:

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A Clash of Kings - Bran III

"Was there one who was best of all?"

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant.

So not forged from the heart of a falling star, but a fallen star.

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Here's another one:

So not forged from the heart of a falling star, but a fallen star.

All these takes us to the enochian books: Book of the Watchers and Book of Giants. They tell the stories of the Watchers (angels) that bred with human women creating a race of Giants (Nephilim) that later were the target of the Great Flood.

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And Uriel said to me: "Here shall stand the angels who have connected themselves with women, and their spirits assuming many different forms are defiling mankind and shall lead them astray into sacrificing to demons 'as gods', (here shall they stand,) till 'the day of' the great judgment in which they shall be judged till they are made an end of. And the women also of the angels who went astray shall become sirens.' And I, Enoch alone, saw the vision, the ends of all things; and no man shall see as I have seen

 

[LongRider]

On 5/14/2021 at 8:13 AM, LynnS said:

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star.

Heart of a Fallen Star, I can't help but wonder, not what is that, but who is that?

[LynnS]

11 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Heart of a Fallen Star, I can't help but wonder, not what is that, but who is that?

Precisely!  No doubt the actual legendary sword is forged from sky metal but to use such a sword or become such a sword; the heart must be equal to the sword.  The sword is forged in the heart and soul.  It's the quality of the heart that defines the man or woman who uses it.

A Fallen Star may be someone who sacrifices themselves for a greater good or noble purpose and not necessarily someone who is fallen into darkness.  

 

[LongRider]

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

A Fallen Star may be someone who sacrifices themselves for a greater good or noble purpose and not necessarily someone who is fallen into darkness.  

I agree with this as darkness wasn't in my thoughts, but someone with the 'brightness' of a star, at least to the sword bearer and possibly to the legends as well.

[LynnS]

4 minutes ago, LongRider said:

I agree with this as darkness wasn't in my thoughts, but someone with the 'brightness' of a star, at least to the sword bearer and possibly to the legends as well.

Yes, that is the question, who was the original fallen star?  Did they fall in battle?

[LongRider]

Just now, LynnS said:

who was the original fallen star?  Did they fall in battle?

Yanno, Ser Arthur Dane was slain in battle by Edward Stark and Howland Reed.  Ned respected and admired Dane so much he returned Dawn to Starfall, so to me a fallen star in battle could have been a brave person respected by their enemies.  A sword from the fallen one or perhaps the sword that brought mercy to the dying fighter, could be a sword forged from the heart of a fallen star.   When Sandor showed Arya how to give the mercy to the dying knight, he showed her where the heart is.   

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"That's where the heart is, girl. That's how you kill a man."    Arya XII   SOS

 

[LynnS]

18 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Yanno, Ser Arthur Dane was slain in battle by Edward Stark and Howland Reed.  Ned respected and admired Dane so much he returned Dawn to Starfall, so to me a fallen star in battle could have been a brave person respected by their enemies.  A sword from the fallen one or perhaps the sword that brought mercy to the dying fighter, could be a sword forged from the heart of a fallen star.   When Sandor showed Arya how to give the mercy to the dying knight, he showed her where the heart is.   

 

The Dawn Sword is a sword that has been handed down.  I wonder when it came into the possession of House Dayne.  I still think there is a connection between House Dayne and the Warrior's Sons - the Stars.  They used to carve a star into their flesh and are doing so again.  The original prohecy:

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A Clash of Kings - Davos I

Melisandre was robed all in scarlet satin and blood velvet, her eyes as red as the great ruby that glistened at her throat as if it too were afire. "In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him." She lifted her voice, so it carried out over the gathered host. "Azor Ahai, beloved of R'hllor! The Warrior of Light, the Son of Fire! Come forth, your sword awaits you! Come forth and take it into your hand!"

 

    

[Tucu]

44 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes, that is the question, who was the original fallen star?  Did they fall in battle?

It would make sense if this was Galladon of Morne the Perfect Knight and ancestor of the Evenstar; he falls in battle and comes back as Dawn to be wielded by the Sword of the Morning (another star and perfect knight). It completes the Venus cycle.

[LynnS]

17 minutes ago, Tucu said:

It would make sense if this was Galladon of Morne the Perfect Knight and ancestor of the Evenstar; he falls in battle and comes back as Dawn to be wielded by the Sword of the Morning (another star and perfect knight). It completes the Venus cycle.

That is brilliant!

[alienarea]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Yes, that is the question, who was the original fallen star?  Did they fall in battle?

The last hero?

[LynnS]

25 minutes ago, alienarea said:

The last hero?

The question is which one?  There seems to be more than one hero in this story..  And they are not necessarily the same. 

[LongRider]

On 5/14/2021 at 8:13 AM, LynnS said:

Here's another one:

So not forged from the heart of a falling star, but a fallen star.

 

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Precisely!  No doubt the actual legendary sword is forged from sky metal but to use such a sword or become such a sword; the heart must be equal to the sword.  The sword is forged in the heart and soul.  It's the quality of the heart that defines the man or woman who uses it.

A Fallen Star may be someone who sacrifices themselves for a greater good or noble purpose and not necessarily someone who is fallen into darkness.  

 

 

3 hours ago, LongRider said:

Yanno, Ser Arthur Dane was slain in battle by Edward Stark and Howland Reed.  Ned respected and admired Dane so much he returned Dawn to Starfall, so to me a fallen star in battle could have been a brave person respected by their enemies.  A sword from the fallen one or perhaps the sword that brought mercy to the dying fighter, could be a sword forged from the heart of a fallen star.   When Sandor showed Arya how to give the mercy to the dying knight, he showed her where the heart is.   "That's where the heart is, girl."

 

A fallen star, the heart must be equal to the sword.  The sword is forged in the heart and soul,  It's the quality of the heart that defines the man or woman who uses it.  So I was thinking, if a new sword of the Dawn is forged, could it be forged from a fallen Star(k).  Who in story had a better heart than Eddard Stark? Ned put his heart and soul into Ice, using the sword for battles, protection and justice.  Ned who's compassion for Cersie and her bastards led to his death on the order of one of very the bastards he tried to save.   

His sword was taken and re-forged into two swords, one known as Oathkeeper and  wielded by  Brienne of Tarth who, like Eddard Stark, tries to keep to her oaths and loyalties.  Could Brienne have the qualities needed to wield a new Lightbringer? Would Oathkeeper need to be quenched in the heart of another fallen star to become the Lightbringer?

hmmmmmm

[Tucu]

12 hours ago, LynnS said:

The Dawn Sword is a sword that has been handed down.  I wonder when it came into the possession of House Dayne.  I still think there is a connection between House Dayne and the Warrior's Sons - the Stars.  They used to carve a star into their flesh and are doing so again.  The original prohecy:

    

Funny what happens when you pull threads: The Seven are fallen stars. When the most devout Tyrion is in Andalos we get this discussion:

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Andalos. The Faith taught that the Seven themselves had once walked the hills of Andalos in human form. “The Father reached his hand into the heavens and pulled down seven stars,” Tyrion recited from memory, “and one by one he set them on the brow of Hugor of the Hill to make a glowing crown.”

Magister Illyrio gave him a curious look. “I did not dream my little friend was so devout.”

The dwarf shrugged. “A relic of my boyhood. I knew I would not make a knight, so I decided to be High Septon. That crystal crown adds a foot to a man’s height. I studied the holy books and prayed until I had scabs on both my knees, but my quest came to a tragic end. I reached that certain age and fell in love.”

The Seven are not only fallen stars, but wandering stars. In our world the 7 classical planets were the visible "stars" that were not fixed (planētes asteres "wandering stars): Sun, Moon, Mercury, Mars, Venus, Jupiter, Saturn.

In the enochian book I mentioned before there are also 7 fallen stars (the leaders of the angels that broke the rules of heaven):

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And beyond that abyss I saw a place which had no firmament of the heaven above, and no firmly founded earth beneath it: there was no water upon it, and no
13 birds, but it was a waste and horrible place. I saw there seven stars like great burning mountains,
14 and to me, when I inquired regarding them, The angel said: 'This place is the end of heaven and earth: this has become a prison for the stars and the host of heaven.
15And the stars which roll over the fire are they which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord in the beginning of
16 their rising, because they did not come forth at their appointed times. And He was wroth with them, and bound them till the time when their guilt should be consummated (even) for ten thousand years.'

 

[LynnS]

4 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Funny what happens when you pull threads: The Seven are fallen stars. When the most devout Tyrion is in Andalos we get this discussion:

The Seven are not only fallen stars, but wandering stars. In our world the 7 classical planets were the visible "stars" that were not fixed (planētes asteres "wandering stars): Sun, Moon, Mercury, Mars, Venus, Jupiter, Saturn.

In the enochian book I mentioned before there are also 7 fallen stars (the leaders of the angels that broke the rules of heaven):

 

Yes indeed!  How many rubies does Elder Brother say they have?  They are waiting for one more.  Are the rubies wanderers who have passed through?  I think Brienne is the 6th ruby.

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A Feast for Crows - Brienne VI

Meribald performed the customary courtesies before seating himself upon the settle. Unlike Septon Narbert, the Elder Brother did not seem dismayed by Brienne's sex, but his smile did flicker and fade when the septon told him why she and Ser Hyle had come. "I see," was all he said, before he turned away with, "You must be thirsty. Please, have some of our sweet cider to wash the dust of travel from your throats." He poured for them himself. The cups were carved from driftwood too, no two the same. When Brienne complimented them, he said, "My lady is too kind. All we do is cut and polish the wood. We are blessed here. Where the river meets the bay, the currents and the tides wrestle one against the other, and many strange and wondrous things are pushed toward us, to wash up on our shores. Driftwood is the least of it. We have found silver cups and iron pots, sacks of wool and bolts of silk, rusted helms and shining swords . . . aye, and rubies."

That interested Ser Hyle. "Rhaegar's rubies?"

"It may be. Who can say? The battle was long leagues from here, but the river is tireless and patient. Six have been found. We are all waiting for the seventh."

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A Feast for Crows - Brienne VI

"The silent sisters never speak," said Podrick. "I heard they don't have any tongues."

Septon Meribald smiled. "Mothers have been cowing their daughters with that tale since I was your age. There was no truth to it then and there is none now. A vow of silence is an act of contrition, a sacrifice by which we prove our devotion to the Seven Above. For a mute to take a vow of silence would be akin to a legless man giving up the dance." He led his donkey down the slope, beckoning them to follow. "If you would sleep beneath a roof tonight, you must climb off your horses and cross the mud with me. The path of faith, we call it. Only the faithful may cross safely. The wicked are swallowed by the quicksands, or drowned when the tide comes rushing in. None of you are wicked, I hope? Even so, I would be careful where I set my feet. Walk only where I walk, and you shall reach the other side."

 

Do the rubies or wanderers represent the seven gods of the faith brought down to earth, fallen from the sky?  Is Brienne the Maiden?

[LynnS]

11 hours ago, LongRider said:

A fallen star, the heart must be equal to the sword.  The sword is forged in the heart and soul,  It's the quality of the heart that defines the man or woman who uses it.  So I was thinking, if a new sword of the Dawn is forged, could it be forged from a fallen Star(k).  Who in story had a better heart than Eddard Stark? Ned put his heart and soul into Ice, using the sword for battles, protection and justice.  Ned who's compassion for Cersie and her bastards led to his death on the order of one of very the bastards he tried to save.   

His sword was taken and re-forged into two swords, one known as Oathkeeper and  wielded by  Brienne of Tarth who, like Eddard Stark, tries to keep to her oaths and loyalties.  Could Brienne have the qualities needed to wield a new Lightbringer? Would Oathkeeper need to be quenched in the heart of another fallen star to become the Lightbringer?

hmmmmmm

Brienne aspires to be a perfect knight.  I'm not sure that was Ned's aspiration although he lives by a certain code of honor.  

Oathkeeper is a valyrian sword forged with magic; a magic that Tobho Mott can't quite bend to his will for all the spells he knows.  The swords have a will of their own.  Although I'm not sure that Ned's soul went into the sword (Bran and Rickon talk to Ned's Ghost); the sword was drenched in his blood.   There may still be a part of Ned captured in the sword.

Brienne senses that the sword makes her stronger, a better fighter.  It may be that the sword chooses her.

As to whether it could be made into a flaming sword or a sword with it's own heat;  I think we have to look at the original model in the story of AA.   The sword is only finished when it is bathed in holy blood,  that has been transformed by holy fire; the heart of Nissa Nissa.  Or even in the heart of a dragon itself or better, a dragon with a soul.

So I think that limits the number of potential Nissa Nissas to Melisandre and potentially Dany.  I'm not sure that any fiery servant will do.  We have Thoros, Lady Stoneheart  and Moqorro as alternatives.  But I think there is a difference in how they are each made and how they are used by R'hllor.  

I'm not sure that Melisandre is entirely dead or that she died before being raised like Beric.  I think her body has been transformed to make her into a fiery vessel.

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A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled.

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. "Melony," she heard a woman cry. A man's voice called, "Lot Seven." She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.

The patterns traced on the skin represent a magic spell at work.  We also see this in the House of Undying:

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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

The mold-eaten carpet under her feet had once been gorgeously colored, and whorls of gold could still be seen in the fabric, glinting broken amidst the faded grey and mottled green. What remained served to muffle her footfalls, but that was not all to the good. Dany could hear sounds within the walls, a faint scurrying and scrabbling that made her think of rats. Drogon heard them too. His head moved as he followed the sounds, and when they stopped he gave an angry scream. Other sounds, even more disturbing, came through some of the closed doors. One shook and thumped, as if someone were trying to break through. From another came a dissonant piping that made the dragon lash his tail wildly from side to side. Dany hurried quickly past.

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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Dany left him behind, entering a stairwell. She began to climb. Before long her legs were aching. She recalled that the House of the Undying Ones had seemed to have no towers.

Finally the stair opened. To her right, a set of wide wooden doors had been thrown open. They were fashioned of ebony and weirwood, the black and white grains swirling and twisting in strange interwoven patterns. 

They were very beautiful, yet somehow frightening. The blood of the dragon must not be afraid. Dany said a quick prayer, begging the Warrior for courage and the Dothraki horse god for strength. She made herself walk forward.

And again in Qyburn's robe:

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A Feast for Crows - Cersei IV

 Imp everywhere, Your Grace," said Qyburn. He had garbed himself in something very like maester's robes, but white instead of grey, immaculate as the cloaks of the Kingsguard. Whorls of gold decorated his hem, sleeves, and stiff high collar, and a golden sash was tied about his waist. "Oldtown, Gulltown, Dorne, even the Free Cities. Wheresoever he might run, my whisperers will find him."

 So while I think Melisandre's flesh has been transformed; I'm not sure she is completely dead or a finished product.  She even hints at another transformation to complete this process.  I think she is setting herself up to be Nissa Nissa to Stannis' AA.  So unless Brienne meets up with her and exacts revenge for Renly;  the only other character with a sword and proximity is Jon.  Potentially a Lightbringer type sword could be made.  However, because it is Melisandre;  I'm not sure of the quality of her soul or the purity of love that I think is required to make a true Lightbringer.

I think Moqorro, like Melisandre is different from Thoros or Beric.  I think his flesh has also been transformed but in a much more horrific manner.  We don't really know what he looks like under his glamor but it's enough to make the Dusky Woman hiss and all the monkeys that have infested Victarion's ship, to jump into the sea. I suspect Moqorro looks something like Victarion's arm after he 'treats' it.

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A Dance with Dragons - The Iron Suitor

Come sunset, as the sea turned black as ink and the swollen sun tinted the sky a deep and bloody red, Victarion came back on deck. He was naked from the waist up, his left arm blood to the elbow. As his crew gathered, whispering and trading glances, he raised a charred and blackened hand. Wisps of dark smoke rose from his fingers as he pointed at the maester. "That one. Cut his throat and throw him in the sea, and the winds will favor us all the way to Meereen." Moqorro had seen that in his fires. He had seen the wench wed too, but what of it? She would not be the first woman Victarion Greyjoy had made a widow.

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A Dance with Dragons - Victarion I

But he would feed the red god too, Moqorro's fire god. The arm the priest had healed was hideous to look upon, pork crackling from elbow to fingertips. Sometimes when Victarion closed his hand the skin would split and smoke, yet the arm was stronger than it had ever been. "Two gods are with me now," he told the dusky woman. "No foe can stand before two gods." Then he rolled her on her back and took her once again.

I'm not sure that Victarion's transformation is complete.  I also think that because Moqorro is male that he is ruled out as a Nissa Nissa archetype.  

That leaves, Beric, Thoros and LSH.   I'd like to know more of Thoros backstory and how he became a priest; but I suspect that he died and was raised in the same manner as Beric and LSH.   Potentially LSH could be made into a flaming sword.

This bit here is also interesting in the context of the fallen stars in the faith of the seven:

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The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. "Melony," she heard a woman cry. A man's voice called, "Lot Seven." She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.

Melisandre is part of a Lot comprised of seven.  Rhaegar's rubies come to mind and of course, Meliandre's ruby.  So I wonder if the seven rubies of the Faith will be transformed by fire at some point.

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A Storm of Swords - Davos I

"It was her!" Davos cried. "Mother, don't forsake us. It was her who burned you, the red woman, Melisandre, her!" He could see her; the heart-shaped face, the red eyes, the long coppery hair, her red gowns moving like flames as she walked, a swirl of silk and satin. She had come from Asshai in the east, she had come to Dragonstone and won Selsye and her queen's men for her alien god, and then the king, Stannis Baratheon himself. He had gone so far as to put the fiery heart on his banners, the fiery heart of R'hllor, Lord of Light and God of Flame and Shadow. At Melisandre's urging, he had dragged the Seven from their sept at Dragonstone and burned them before the castle gates, and later he had burned the godswood at Storm's End as well, even the heart tree, a huge white weirwood with a solemn face.

Melisandre operates on blind faith.  But she is correct that we don't know R'hllor's will or who he will choose as an instrument.  She thinks giving the Seven to him will please him.  The question is who would the Lord of Light and Love find pleasing?  Keeping in mind that this is how GRRM characterizes the fiery god.