Heresy 235 The Winter Snow

[Frey family reunion]

8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Or HBO didn't think it would draw a large enough audience without dragons.

Yea, that too.

[Black Crow]

13 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

It might also be an indication that Hollywood is happier with the Mummer's version of Westeros, than GRRM's actual, probably much darker and ickier, vision.

Aside from "darker and ickier" and would be a totally different kind of story. The Mummers Farce was always an extended version of a Game of Thrones with added hazards, including but not limited to dragons. It was all about who was going to get the tin throne.

The Long Night would be a horror story pure and simple. Great if you're into that but a wholly different style.

[alienarea]

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The Mummers Farce was always an extended version of a Game of Thrones with added hazards, including but not limited to dragons. It was all about who was going to get the tin throne.

True. But the IMHO biggest problem for tv was that the main characters from the books are under age and do things they should maybe not do on tv.

Plus, let's face it: tv Lannisters are like the Ewing family and tv Starks more like Our little farm. 

[LynnS]

OK, fair enough.  There might be more to the sorcery behind pyromancy than meets the eye.  My impression of them through Tyrion's POV is that they are dangerous bumblers, and I'm not sure that wasn't also the case at Summerhall.   But since an offer is made to Cersei by a pyromancer, to hatch a dragon egg, if she had one; it may be that they have some arcane knowledge about doing just that.  At least their predecessors may have had some knowledge about it.   It brings up questions about the origins of their guild and what sorcery was involved in the construction of Dragonstone.  It also brings up the question of blood sacrifice, although there doesn't seem to be any indication that the Summerhall tragedy intended to sacrifice anyone.   Although it ended that way. 

I wonder if the last dragons hatched were a result of pyromancy. 

 Yes a pyromancy angle seems fairly plausible.  But pyromancy and blood magic are not, I think, necessarily the same thing, though there may be some overlap.

Does Ser Bonifer have some connection to the Summerhall tragedy?  "Ser Bonifer himself had been a promising knight in his youth, but something had happened to him, a defeat or a disgrace or a near brush with death, and afterward he had decided that jousting was an empty vanity and put away his lance for good and all."

[LynnS]

53 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Does Ser Bonifer have some connection to the Summerhall tragedy?  "Ser Bonifer himself had been a promising knight in his youth, but something had happened to him, a defeat or a disgrace or a near brush with death, and afterward he had decided that jousting was an empty vanity and put away his lance for good and all."

Just looking at the profiles in Wiki; my sense of it is that Ser Bonifer is most affected by what happened to the woman he loved, Queen Rhaella.  He crowns her QOLAB at a tourney and later hangs up his lance due to empty vanity.  I think knowledge of Aerys treatment of his lost love may have broken him.  I don't know who would have been at Summerhall beside Jenny of Oldstones, Ser Duncan, Aerys and Rhaella.  The Ghost of High Heart as well seems to have been a witness.  The Kingsguard, a maester also no doubt.  Ladies in waiting, servants, etc.

We could assume that the royal entourage was in atttendance waiting on Rhaella to deliver TPWIP and Aerys brought a pyromancer and at least one dragon egg with him in anticipation of the birth.  Attempting to hatch the egg as Rhaella went into labor.  But I'm not sure that blood magic or sacrifices were involved.  Since we really don't know the wording of the prophecy; it could be that Aerys thought dragons would hatch at the birth of his son.   And he tried to make it happen.  Not unlike Rhaegar making his way to Elia's bed on the day a comet appears.  

[Tucu]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Just looking at the profiles in Wiki; my sense of it is that Ser Bonifer is most affected by what happened to the woman he loved, Queen Rhaella.  He crowns her QOLAB at a tourney and later hangs up his lance due to empty vanity.  I think knowledge of Aerys treatment of his lost love may have broken him.  I don't know who would have been at Summerhall beside Jenny of Oldstones, Ser Duncan, Aerys and Rhaella.  The Ghost of High Heart as well seems to have been a witness.  The Kingsguard, a maester also no doubt.  Ladies in waiting, servants, etc.

We could assume that the royal entourage was in atttendance waiting on Rhaella to deliver TPWIP and Aerys brought a pyromancer and at least one dragon egg with him in anticipation of the birth.  Attempting to hatch the egg as Rhaella went into labor.  But I'm not sure that blood magic or sacrifices were involved.  Since we really don't know the wording of the prophecy; it could be that Aerys thought dragons would hatch at the birth of his son.   And he tried to make it happen.  Not unlike Rhaegar making his way to Elia's bed on the day a comet appears.  

I think Bonifer is one of the pieces of the soiled knight puzzle. Like Lancel, Bonifer becomes a holy warrior and seems to be atoning for his (sexual) sins

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"She is a font of corruption," said Ser Bonifer. "I won't have her near my men, flaunting her . . . parts."

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But he might not be wrong. Hasty hailed from the stormlands, so had neither friends nor foes along the Trident; no blood feuds, no debts to pay, no cronies to reward. He was sober, just, and dutiful, and his Holy Eighty-Six were as well disciplined as any soldiers in the Seven Kingdoms, and made a lovely sight as they wheeled and pranced their tall grey geldings. Littlefinger had once quipped that Ser Bonifer must have gelded the riders too, so spotless was their repute.

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He and Ser Bonifer should get on well. "Very well." There would be time enough to talk with his cousin later.

So, what was his contribution in Summerhall? Maybe 50% of Rhaegar...

[Mister Smikes]

13 hours ago, Tucu said:

I think Bonifer is one of the pieces of the soiled knight puzzle. Like Lancel, Bonifer becomes a holy warrior and seems to be atoning for his (sexual) sins

So, what was his contribution in Summerhall? Maybe 50% of Rhaegar...

Thanks to Bonifer, the very tall and promising landed knight, Rhaegar failed to unite the lines of Aerys and Rhaella, but only united the lines of Dunk and Egg.

Therefore, Rhaegar could not be TPTWP, and the pyromancy ritual intended to celebrate his arrival did not work, but backfired tragically.

Rhaegar, on realizing this, decided it was his job to unite the lines of Aerys & Rhaella, by uniting with one of Aerys' by-blows.

So he chose as his first wife Elia, whose mother had been in KL, only to rush home to Dorne to her husband in order to give birth "prematurely".

But the dragon needs 3 heads, so when Elia could have no more children, he next went after Lyanna, whose father and mother had been in KL during Aerys' randy period of chasing after other men's wives.

Note that Lyanna's mother is a Stark by birth as well as marriage.  Hence Lyanna can have the Stark look without getting it from her dad.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Note that Lyanna's mother is a Stark by birth as well as marriage.  Hence Lyanna can have the Stark look without getting it from her dad.

I don't know what to say....I'll check with Mormont's raven:

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

... Mormont's raven muttered across the room. "Corn," the bird said, and, "King," and, "Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow." ...

He says it's going to snow.

[Black Crow]

[LynnS]

Th madness of King Aerys and Cersei's firey hand:

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A Feast for Crows - Cersei III

Back out in the Hall of Lamps, the mourners buzzed about them thick as flies, eager to shower her with useless condolences. The Redwyne twins both kissed her hand, their father her cheeks. Hallyne the Pyromancer promised her that a flaming hand would burn in the sky above the city on the day her father's bones went west. Between coughs, Lord Gyles told her that he had hired a master stonecarver to make a statue of Lord Tywin, to stand eternal vigil beside the Lion Gate. Ser Lambert Turnberry appeared with a patch over his right eye, swearing that he would wear it until he could bring her the head of her dwarf brother.

Cersei thought of all the King's Hands that she had known through the years: Owen Merryweather, Jon Connington, Qarlton Chelsted, Jon Arryn, Eddard Stark, her brother Tyrion. And her father, Lord Tywin Lannister, her father most of all. All of them are burning now, she told herself, savoring the thought. They are dead and burning, every one, with all their plots and schemes and betrayals. It is my day now. It is my castle and my kingdom.

......

"No need." Cersei felt too alive for sleep. The wildfire was cleansing her, burning away all her rage and fear, filling her with resolve. "The flames are so pretty. I want to watch them for a while."

We have a juxtaposition between the pyromancer's flaming hand and the fiery hand of R'hllor.   Between Cersei and Aerys: Let them all burn.

And between Cersei and Dany:

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

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A Feast for Crows - Jaime II

A new stepfather, most like. Jaime knew the look in his sister's eyes. He had seen it before, most recently on the night of Tommen's wedding, when she burned the Tower of the Hand. The green light of the wildfire had bathed the face of the watchers, so they looked like nothing so much as rotting corpses, a pack of gleeful ghouls, but some of the corpses were prettier than others. Even in the baleful glow, Cersei had been beautiful to look upon. She'd stood with one hand on her breast, her lips parted, her green eyes shining. She is crying, Jaime had realized, but whether it was from grief or ecstasy he could not have said.

The sight had filled him with disquiet, reminding him of Aerys Targaryen and the way a burning would arouse him. A king has no secrets from his Kingsguard. Relations between Aerys and his queen had been strained during the last years of his reign. They slept apart and did their best to avoid each other during the waking hours. But whenever Aerys gave a man to the flames, Queen Rhaella would have a visitor in the night. The day he burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood at guard outside her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure. "You're hurting me," they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. "You're hurting me." In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted's screaming. "We are sworn to protect her as well," Jaime had finally been driven to say. "We are," Darry allowed, "but not from him."

Between Melisandre's sing-song voice and Hallyne's humming:

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A Feast for Crows - Cersei III

A hundred yards from the tower, she took a breath to stop her head from spinning. "Lord Hallyne! You may commence."

Hallyne the pyromancer said "Hmmmmmm" and waved the torch he was holding, and the archers on the walls bent their bows and sent a dozen flaming arrows through the gaping windows.

...

A Feast for Crows - Cersei III

Tommen stared wide-eyed at the fires, as fascinated as he was frightened, until Margaery whispered something in his ear that made him laugh. Some of the knights began to make wagers on how long it would be before the tower collapsed. Lord Hallyne stood humming to himself and rocking on his heels.

 Between fire mages, pyromancers and dragons:

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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys III

"Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake fire from dragonglass. He had some small skill with powders and wildfire, sufficient to entrance a crowd while his cutpurses did their work. He could walk across hot coals and make burning roses bloom in the air, but he could no more aspire to climb the fiery ladder than a common fisherman could hope to catch a kraken in his nets."

Dany looked uneasily at where the ladder had stood. Even the smoke was gone now, and the crowd was breaking up, each man going about his business. In a moment more than a few would find their purses flat and empty. "And now?"

"And now his powers grow, Khaleesi. And you are the cause of it."

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A Clash of Kings - Tyrion XI

Hallyne had the complexion of a mushroom, so it was hard to see how he could turn any paler, yet somehow he managed. "We were, my lord Hand, my brothers and I have been laboring day and night from the first, I assure you. It is only, hmmm, we have made so much of the substance that we have become, hmmm, more practiced as it were, and also"—the alchemist shifted uncomfortably—"certain spells, hmmm, ancient secrets of our order, very delicate, very troublesome, but necessary if the substance is to be, hmmm, all it should be . . ."

Tyrion was growing impatient. Ser Jacelyn Bywater was likely here by now, and Ironhand misliked waiting. "Yes, you have secret spells; how splendid. What of them?"

"They, hmmm, seem to be working better than they were." Hallyne smiled weakly. "You don't suppose there are any dragons about, do you?"

"Not unless you found one under the Dragonpit. Why?"

 

"Oh, pardon, I was just remembering something old Wisdom Pollitor told me once, when I was an acolyte. I'd asked him why so many of our spells seemed, well, not as effectual as the scrolls would have us believe, and he said it was because magic had begun to go out of the world the day the last dragon died."

Between Beric and Thoros:

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A Storm of Swords - Arya IV

"He won't remember me, but he used to come to our forge." The Smallwood forge had not been used in some time, though the smith had hung his tools neatly on the wall. Gendry lit a candle and set it on the anvil while he took down a pair of tongs. "My master always scolded him about his flaming swords. It was no way to treat good steel, he'd say, but this Thoros never used good steel. He'd just dip some cheap sword in wildfire and set it alight. It was only an alchemist's trick, my master said, but it scared the horses and some of the greener knights."

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A Storm of Swords - Arya VI

The flaming sword leapt up to meet the cold one, long streamers of fire trailing in its wake like the ribbons the Hound had spoken of. Steel rang on steel. No sooner was his first slash blocked than Clegane made another, but this time Lord Beric's shield got in the way, and wood chips flew from the force of the blow. Hard and fast the cuts came, from low and high, from right and left, and each one Dondarrion blocked. The flames swirled about his sword and left red and yellow ghosts to mark its passage. Each move Lord Beric made fanned them and made them burn the brighter, until it seemed as though the lightning lord stood within a cage of fire. "Is it wildfire?" Arya asked Gendry.

"No. This is different. This is . . ."

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A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

While the boy was gone, Melisandre washed herself and changed her robes. Her sleeves were full of hidden pockets, and she checked them carefully as she did every morning to make certain all her powders were in place. Powders to turn fire green or blue or silver, powders to make a flame roar and hiss and leap up higher than a man is tall, powders to make smoke. A smoke for truth, a smoke for lust, a smoke for fear, and the thick black smoke that could kill a man outright. The red priestess armed herself with a pinch of each of them.

The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three-quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients. My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers.

And Moqorro:

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IX

The wind returned as a whispered threat, cold and damp, brushing over his cheek, flapping the wet sail, swirling and tugging at Moqorro's scarlet robes. Some instinct made Tyrion grab hold of the nearest rail, just in time. In the space of three heartbeats the little breeze became a howling gale. Moqorro shouted something, and green flames leapt from the dragon's maw atop his staff to vanish in the night. Then the rains came, black and blinding, and forecastle and sterncastle both vanished behind a wall of water. Something huge flapped overhead, and Tyrion glanced up in time to see the sail taking wing, with two men still dangling from the lines. Then he heard a crack. Oh, bloody hell, he had time to think, that had to be the mast.

 

[LynnS]

39 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

LOL!  He's the Magic 8 Ball of Martin's world.  Shake him up, put a corn in the slot and sometimes you hit the jackpot.

[Melifeather]

I had forgotten about Ser Bonifer's "chasteness". Was the love between Rhaella and Ser Bonifer unconsumated? It is known that Rhaella slept with septas on the orders of her husband Aerys. Maybe their relationship was the virtuous romantic love of fairy tales?

As for who was at Summerhall, I suspect there are parallels to Mirri's tent revival combined with Drogo's funeral pyre. 

Mirri Maz Durr = The Woods Witch

Pregnant Daenerys = pregnant Rhaella

Khal Drogo = King Aegon V

Ser Jorah = Ser Duncan

Khal Drogo's blood riders that lived: Qotho, Haggo, and Jhogo = King Aegon's closest family that died: his son, Prince of Dragonflies Duncan Targaryen and his wife Jenny of Oldstones, as well as the man he probably loved most, Ser Duncan the Tall

Braziers were lit in the tent = obviously there was fire at Summerhal = and Daenerys burned Drogo in a funeral pyre

Ser Jorah carried pregnant Daenerys into the tent while Ser Duncan carried pregnant Rhaella "out".

Rhaego died = Rhaegar lived

Mirri described Rhaego's appearance as:

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"Monstrous," Mirri Maz Duur finished for him. The knight was a powerful man, yet Dany understood in that moment that the maegi was stronger, and crueler, and infinitely more dangerous. "Twisted. I drew him forth myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat. When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption. He had been dead for years."

Daenerys placed three eggs into the funeral pyre. I suspect King Aegon V also had dragon eggs.

Daenerys sacrificed Mirri in the flames. Did Aegon try to burn someone alive? How did future king Aerys escape? Has anyone ever suspected Aerys of starting the fire?

[Yaya]

On 5/30/2021 at 6:03 AM, LynnS said:

put a corn in the slot and sometimes you hit the jackpot

ahoy!  my question is off-topic (maybe)

@LynnS i saw your reply in Megorova's posting about the 'corn theory' ... is it possible that you (or one of you all 'in the know') can type a bit about it for me/all us that are unlearned in this? 
if you can type it here or somewhere else please let me know  

[LynnS]

13 hours ago, Yaya said:

ahoy!  my question is off-topic (maybe)

@LynnS i saw your reply in Megorova's posting about the 'corn theory' ... is it possible that you (or one of you all 'in the know') can type a bit about it for me/all us that are unlearned in this? 
if you can type it here or somewhere else please let me know  

Hi Yaya.  Sure.  I was having a little joke with Black Crow at my expense.  The corn code was a theory that I came across years ago when I first joined the forum.  It was the cause of much curiosity and interest at the time.  The basic premise was that Martin was using Mormont's raven to foreshadow the death of a character based on the number of times the bird said the word corn and in what order. Part of the allure had to do with Martin's use of the number three or repetitions thereof and hence it was a code for the reader to decipher.  It turned out that the code was not an accurate predictor and any examples of it being true were actually random.

I was very taken up with it at the time and made my debut on Heresy with twenty pages of related theories.  I can laugh about it now.  So it appears the only time the bird actually 'predicted a death' was in the quote above about Jon Snow.  And the triplet wasn't the word corn, but the word Snow.  I was making fun of the bird predicting the weather.  

[Frey family reunion]

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

Hi Yaya.  Sure.  I was having a little joke with Black Crow at my expense.  The corn code was a theory that I came across years ago when I first joined the forum.  It was the cause of much curiosity and interest at the time.  The basic premise was that Martin was using Mormont's raven to foreshadow the death of a character based on the number of times the bird said the word corn and in what order. Part of the allure had to do with Martin's use of the number three or repetitions thereof and hence it was a code for the reader to decipher.  It turned out that the code was not an accurate predictor and any examples of it being true were actually random.

I was very taken up with it at the time and made my debut on Heresy with twenty pages of related theories.  I can laugh about it now.  So it appears the only time the bird actually 'predicted a death' was in the quote above about Jon Snow.  And the triplet wasn't the word corn, but the word Snow.  I was making fun of the bird predicting the weather.  

From what I remember it dealt with how the corns were punctuated, whether they were capitalized, and a bunch of other stuff.  What I think the conclusion he ultimately came to is when something is said in 3s to a character that character was about to die.  It was all very entertaining.

[Tucu]

What is dead may never die. Here are the links to the archived copies if you want to read the theory:

 

[LynnS]

Hah, thank you both.  At least none of my jump-off theories will show up on that thread.  When the basic premise for your foundation is wrong, everything else collapses under its own weight.  I'd rather they were dead and stayed that way.

[Black Crow]

12 hours ago, LynnS said:

 I'd rather they were dead and stayed that way.

Death aint what it used to be in Westeros. After all, what is dead may never die 

[LynnS]

A stray thought about the Others:

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A Feast for Crows - Samwell I

"Long ago," Jon broke in. "What about the Others?"

"I found mention of dragonglass. The children of the forest used to give the Night's Watch a hundred obsidian daggers every year, during the Age of Heroes. The Others come when it is cold, most of the tales agree. Or else it gets cold when they come. Sometimes they appear during snowstorms and melt away when the skies clear. They hide from the light of the sun and emerge by night . . . or else night falls when they emerge. Some stories speak of them riding the corpses of dead animals. Bears, direwolves, mammoths, horses, it makes no matter, so long as the beast is dead. The one that killed Small Paul was riding a dead horse, so that part's plainly true. Some accounts speak of giant ice spiders too. I don't know what those are. Men who fall in battle against the Others must be burned, or else the dead will rise again as their thralls."

If the Warrior of Light is armoured like the sun, shining with light; it seems this would be a distinct advantage over the Others.  

Martin has said that Melisandre is the most misunderstood character.  What have we misunderstood? What are we missing:

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A Storm of Swords - Samwell V

"Nightfires?" Bowen Marsh gave Melisandre an uncertain look. "We're to light nightfires now?"

"You are." The woman rose in a swirl of scarlet silk, her long copper-bright hair tumbling about her shoulders. "Swords alone cannot hold this darkness back. Only the light of the Lord can do that. Make no mistake, good sers and valiant brothers, the war we've come to fight is no petty squabble over lands and honors. Ours is a war for life itself, and should we fail the world dies with us."

Melisandre knows something about shining with light:

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A Clash of Kings - Davos II

There was no answer but a soft rustling. And then a light bloomed amidst the darkness.

Davos raised a hand to shield his eyes, and his breath caught in his throat. Melisandre had thrown back her cowl and shrugged out of the smothering robe. Beneath, she was naked, and huge with child. Swollen breasts hung heavy against her chest, and her belly bulged as if near to bursting. "Gods preserve us," he whispered, and heard her answering laugh, deep and throaty. Her eyes were hot coals, and the sweat that dappled her skin seemed to glow with a light of its own. Melisandre shone.

 And Jaime's face shines in Bran's dream:

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A Game of Thrones - Bran III

There are different kinds of wings, the crow said.

Bran was staring at his arms, his legs. He was so skinny, just skin stretched taut over bones. Had he always been so thin? He tried to remember. A face swam up at him out of the grey mist, shining with light, golden. "The things I do for love," it said.

Another thing Melisandre tells Jon is that the Wall is as much her place as it is his.   There is something in the oath of the Night Watch that suggests that this is the case:

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I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come."

 

[Tucu]

I like how GRRM plays with the relationship between light and darkness. Mel&Co paint them as opposites, but from the GoT Prologue and Bran and Davos chapters we get a different message:

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Bran closed his eyes. It was too cold to talk, and they dare not light a fire. Coldhands had warned them against that. These woods are not as empty as you think, he had said. You cannot know what the light might summon from the darkness

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"You are the mother of darkness. I saw that under Storm's End, when you gave birth before my eyes."

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End. “Feel how cold the wind is? The guards will huddle close to those torches. A little warmth, a little light, they’re a comfort on a night like this. Yet that will blind them, so they will not see us pass.”

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A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took.

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"Shadow?" Davos felt his flesh prickling. "A shadow is a thing of darkness."

"You are more ignorant than a child, ser knight. There are no shadows in the dark. Shadows are the servants of light, the children of fire. The brightest flame casts the darkest shadows."

The WWs like Mel's shadows are creatures of light and darkness