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Heresy 235 The Winter Snow


Black Crow

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2 hours ago, Tucu said:

I like how GRRM plays with the relationship between light and darkness. Mel&Co paint them as opposites, but from the GoT Prologue and Bran and Davos chapters we get a different message:

The WWs like Mel's shadows are creatures of light and darkness

I fail to explain in a good way but am confident this is why Bran names his direwolf Summer.

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12 minutes ago, alienarea said:

I fail to explain in a good way but am confident this is why Bran names his direwolf Summer.

Theseus had his ball of thread to find his way back; Bran seems to have his ball of fur to get back from his journey into darkness and the heart of winter.

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16 hours ago, Tucu said:

I like how GRRM plays with the relationship between light and darkness. Mel&Co paint them as opposites, but from the GoT Prologue and Bran and Davos chapters we get a different message:

The WWs like Mel's shadows are creatures of light and darkness

I have long suggested that the reason why the Great Other's name must never be spoken is because it is R'hllor

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6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I have long suggested that the reason why the Great Other's name must never be spoken is because it is R'hllor

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A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

No, Bran thought, but he walked in this castle, where we'll sleep tonight. He did not like that notion very much at all. Night's King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule. And it's getting dark.

The Reeds decided that they would sleep in the kitchens, a stone octagon with a broken dome. It looked to offer better shelter than most of the other buildings, even though a crooked weirwood had burst up through the slate floor beside the huge central well, stretching slantwise toward the hole in the roof, its bone-white branches reaching for the sun. It was a queer kind of tree, skinnier than any other weirwood that Bran had ever seen and faceless as well, but it made him feel as if the old gods were with him here, at least.

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A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

Hodor was already curled up and snoring lightly. From time to time he thrashed beneath his cloak, and whimpered something that might have been "Hodor." Bran wriggled closer to the fire. The warmth felt good, and the soft crackling of flames soothed him, but sleep would not come. Outside the wind was sending armies of dead leaves marching across the courtyards to scratch faintly at the doors and windows. The sounds made him think of Old Nan's stories. He could almost hear the ghostly sentinels calling to each other atop the Wall and winding their ghostly warhorns. Pale moonlight slanted down through the hole in the dome, painting the branches of the weirwood as they strained up toward the roof. It looked as if the tree was trying to catch the moon and drag it down into the well. Old gods, Bran prayed, if you hear me, don't send a dream tonight. Or if you do, make it a good dream. The gods made no answer.

 

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Some interwoven light and darkness to celebrate the one and only R'hllor:

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The double doors showed a hunting scene carved in ebony and weirwood. A pair of stone knights stood sentry at the entrance, armored in fanciful suits of polished red steel that transformed them into griffin and unicorn

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Finally the stair opened. To her right, a set of wide wooden doors had been thrown open. They were fashioned of ebony and weirwood, the black and white grains swirling and twisting in strange interwoven patterns. They were very beautiful, yet somehow frightening. The blood of the dragon must not be afraid. Dany said a quick prayer, begging the Warrior for courage and the Dothraki horse god for strength. She made herself walk forward.

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At the top she found a set of carved wooden doors twelve feet high. The left-hand door was made of weirwood pale as bone, the right of gleaming ebony. In their center was a carved moon face; ebony on the weirwood side, weirwood on the ebony

The wyrm eating the wood:

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She took a step forward. But then Drogon leapt from her shoulder. He flew to the top of the ebony-and-weirwood door, perched there, and began to bite at the carved wood.

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Bloodraven is the root of all our woes, the white worm gnawing at the heart of the realm.

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The sight of him still frightened Bran—the weirwood roots snaking in and out of his withered flesh, the mushrooms sprouting from his cheeks, the white wooden worm that grew from the socket where one eye had been. He liked it better when the torches were put out. In the dark he could pretend that it was the three-eyed crow who whispered to him and not some grisly talking corpse.

And the wolf that eats the worm:

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"Let us see." The priest lowered his cowl. Beneath he had no face; only a yellowed skull with a few scraps of skin still clinging to the cheeks, and a white worm wriggling from one empty eye socket. "Kiss me, child," he croaked, in a voice as dry and husky as a death rattle.

Does he think to scare me? Arya kissed him where his nose should be and plucked the grave worm from his eye to eat it, but it melted like a shadow in her hand.

 

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On 6/3/2021 at 4:53 AM, Black Crow said:

I have long suggested that the reason why the Great Other's name must never be spoken is because it is R'hllor

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A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Bran felt along his shoulders, groping for feathers.

There are different kinds of wings, the crow said.

Not confined to or exclusively birds?

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5 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I'd be more inclined to think the Crow simply means that wings need not be physical ones

Right.  I forget we are also talking about astral projection and the soul floating away from the body.

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Are Jaime and Cersei Targaryen bastards?

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Joanna went to King's Landing in 259 AC, for the coronation of King Jaehaerys II Targaryen, and remained as a lady-in-waiting for the future queen, Princess Rhaella Targaryen. There were rumors that Joanna gave her maidenhead to Prince Aerys the night of Jaehaerys's coronation, and that she briefly became Aerys's paramour after he ascended the Iron Throne. However, Grand Maester Pycelle insists these tales are baseless, as Tywin would not have married Joanna if they were true, "for he was ever a proud man and not one accustomed to feasting on another man's leavings."[6]

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Joanna married her first cousin, Tywin, now serving as Aerys's Hand of the King, in 263 AC in a lavish ceremony in the Great Sept of Baelor.[7] On their wedding day, the oft-grim Tywin smiled, a rare occurrence.[8] At the wedding feast, Aerys drunkenly japed about how it was a pity the first night tradition was banned, and he took certain "unwonted liberties" with Joanna in the bedding ritual when the men at the feast had to disrobe the bride.[9][6]

Not long thereafter, Joanna was dismissed by Queen Rhaella Targaryen from her service in King's Landing. While Rhaella turned a blind eye towards most of her husband's infidelities, she did not approve when it concerned one of her own ladies, several of whom were sent away from court. Joanna departed for Casterly Rock at once, and she seldom visited the capital afterwards.[6]

Is Aerys full of BS?

Tywin becomes Hand of the King is 263 AC.

Joanna is one of Rhaella's ladies in waiting.  She marries Tywin in 262 AC.

Cersei and Jaime are conceived in 265 AC.  Was Joanna still a lady in waiting then and sent away shortly thereafter?

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20 hours ago, LynnS said:

Are Jaime and Cersei Targaryen bastards?

Where did that one come from ?

 

Its possible, I suppose, and while Pycelle's denial is plausible, I wouldn't trust a word he says.

Moreover GRRM has sown the question. It might explain Tywin's betrayal of Aerys, after all revenge is a dish best served cold, but I don't see it as another hidden Targaryen complication.

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22 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Where did that one come from ?

Its possible, I suppose, and while Pycelle's denial is plausible, I wouldn't trust a word he says.

Moreover GRRM has sown the question. It might explain Tywin's betrayal of Aerys, after all revenge is a dish best served cold, but I don't see it as another hidden Targaryen complication.

I don't know.  For some reason. I had the impression that they were Aerys' bastards.  I wouldn't trust Pycelle either.  He says Tywin would never feast on another man's leavings; but that turns out to be untrue I don't see it as a hidden complication as far as . succession.  I wonder if there are some implications for king's blood and magic around Jaime's arc if true.  Eh, probably nothing.

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14 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't know.  For some reason. I had the impression that they were Aerys' bastards.  I wouldn't trust Pycelle either.  He says Tywin would never feast on another man's leavings; but that turns out to be untrue I don't see it as a hidden complication as far as . succession.  I wonder if there are some implications for king's blood and magic around Jaime's arc if true.  Eh, probably nothing.

Well I suppose Cersei's behavior stands in contrast to Tywin's cold calculation - much more Targaryen-like

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3 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Well I suppose Cersei's behavior stands in contrast to Tywin's cold calculation - much more Targaryen-like

Cersei's insanity and pyromania are beginning to show.

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31 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

It would be interesting if all three of Tywin kids are not his as Cersei’s are not Roberts.

There might have been opportunity in the two years that she remained at KL with Tywin as Hand of the King.  I don't know what a 'short time" would mean.  But if she was pregnant, she would have been dismissed by Rhaella.  There was no real opportunity after that with Joanna remaining at Casterly Rock.  But she did make a few visits to KL after that.  It's curious that Jaime's Aunt Genna says that Tyrion is more Tywin's son than Jaime.  I'm looking for the quote, but haven't found it so far.   I'm not sure she is just talking about Tyrion's character.   

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On 6/6/2021 at 2:19 PM, LynnS said:

Are Jaime and Cersei Targaryen bastards?

Is Aerys full of BS?

Tywin becomes Hand of the King is 263 AC.

Joanna is one of Rhaella's ladies in waiting.  She marries Tywin in 262 AC.

Cersei and Jaime are conceived in 265 AC.  Was Joanna still a lady in waiting then and sent away shortly thereafter?

GRRM seems to be making an effort to not place Aerys and Joanna in close proximity near possible conception dates for Cersei and Jamie.

Joanna is dismissed shortly after the 263 wedding, placing her more in Casterly Rock than in KL after that. Aerys spends the best part of a year in the Westerlands, but this was in 267 until early 268. Then Joanna is present in KL in 272 for a tourney; this visit might be close enough for Tyrion's conception. The next known trip is Aerys in the westerlands in 276 for the tourney where he rejected Cersei for Rhaegar.

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37 minutes ago, LynnS said:

There might have been opportunity in the two years that she remained at KL with Tywin as Hand of the King.  I don't know what a 'short time" would mean.  But if she was pregnant, she would have been dismissed by Rhaella.  There was no real opportunity after that with Joanna remaining at Casterly Rock.  But she did make a few visits to KL after that.  It's curious that Jaime's Aunt Genna says that Tyrion is more Tywin's son than Jaime.  I'm looking for the quote, but haven't found it so far.   I'm not sure she is just talking about Tyrion's character.   

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A Feast for Crows - Jaime V

That was a queer remark. "Why should you fear?"

"Jaime," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak . . . but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years."

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II

Sadly, the marriage between Aerys II Targaryen and his sister, Rhaella, was not as happy; though she turned a blind eye to most of the king's infidelities, the queen did not approve of his "turning my ladies into his whores." (Joanna Lannister was not the first lady to be dismissed abruptly from Her Grace's service, nor was she the last). Relations between the king and queen grew even more strained when Rhaella proved unable to give Aerys any further children. Miscarriages in 263 and 264 were followed by a stillborn daughter born in 267. Prince Daeron, born in 269, survived for only half a year. Then came another stillbirth in 270, another miscarriage in 271, and Prince Aegon, born two turns premature in 272, dead in 273.

The scurrilous rumor that Joanna Lannister gave up her maidenhead to Prince Aerys the night of his father's coronation and enjoyed a brief reign as his paramour after he ascended the Iron Throne can safely be discounted. As Pycelle insists in his letters, Tywin Lannister would scarce have taken his cousin to wife if that had been true, "for he was ever a proud man and not one accustomed to feasting upon another man's leavings."

It has been reliably reported, however, that King Aerys took unwonted liberties with Lady Joanna's person during her bedding ceremony, to Tywin's displeasure. Not long thereafter, Queen Rhaella dismissed Joanna Lannister from her service. No reason for this was ever given, but Lady Joanna departed at once for Casterly Rock and seldom visited King's Landing thereafter.

 

I agree that there are hints that Cersei and Jaime are not Tywin's. The fact that Joanna was Rhaella's lady in waiting, Rhaella's comment about her ladies in waiting being turned into whores, Aerys "taking" of Joanna and the "liberties" he took at her wedding to Tywin, and her dismissal shortly afterward - all support the idea that Aerys had sex with Joanna multiple times. Added to that is the symbolism of brother and sister incest and Cersei's infatuation with wildfyre. All that being said, the following dates make the claim questionable:

Tywin and Joanna's wedding year: 263

Cersei and Jaime's birth year 266 - the calculation for this is the quote that Joanna brought her 6-year old twins to the great Anniversary Tourney of 272 AC, held to commemorate Aerys's tenth year upon the Iron Throne.

I guess it depends upon when Joanna was dismissed as Rhaella's lady in waiting, because the text does support that she remained in Rhaella's service after her marriage to Tywin.

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I've no dog in this race, but GRRM has gone to a lot of trouble to hint at a relationship. There were obviously stories, else Pycelle wouldn't need to deny them, but there are no obvious consequences to those stories. So why include these references? On the other hand, if they are true, why ?

I wouldn't get too tied up on the quoted dates. I have done extensive research on my own family history and its surprising [or perhaps not surprising] how often people lie about their ages in official documents. For example a particular individual claimed throughout her life to have been born on the island of Jersey in 1802, but actually turned out to have been born there in 1796

At a casual level we can accept the dates as written, but if circumstances suggest otherwise they might be treated with caution

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3 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I've no dog in this race, but GRRM has gone to a lot of trouble to hint at a relationship. There were obviously stories, else Pycelle wouldn't need to deny them, but there are no obvious consequences to those stories. So why include these references? On the other hand, if they are true, why ?

I wouldn't get too tied up on the quoted dates. I have done extensive research on my own family history and its surprising [or perhaps not surprising] how often people lie about their ages in official documents. For example a particular individual claimed throughout her life to have been born on the island of Jersey in 1802, but actually turned out to have been born there in 1796

At a casual level we can accept the dates as written, but if circumstances suggest otherwise they might be treated with caution

If Cersei and Jaime were Targaryen bastards it would add a heaping helping of irony to the story. Cersei would be one of the dreaded Targaryen "spawn" that Robert hated. It would make Jaime a kinslayer as well as kingslayer, and like Bael he killed his father unawares. It would also be quite ironic that Tywin hated his only trueborn son. In Tywin's eyes, Cersei and Jaime were good looking reflections whereas Tyrion was an ugly one.

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