Heresy 235 The Winter Snow

[Frey family reunion]

On 6/9/2021 at 12:04 PM, Matthew. said:

Even as things fell apart for House Targaryen - which, regardless of whether not Rhaegar wanted to ultimately depose Aerys, would have still been bad for Rhaegar politically - Rhaegar remained MIA, and whatever he was doing, it doesn't appear to have been adding to either his own political strength, or the strength of House Targaryen.

It’s also interesting that Aerys would have turned to Connington, someone from Rhaegar’s inner circle, so shortly after Harrenhal.  After all, we’re told that Aerys was harboring suspicions that Rhaegar and company were using the tourney to undermine him.

And also odd that Rhaegar and two Kingsguards were MIA in Aerys’ time of need but it didnt’ appear that he held it against either party.  Aerys has no problem in handing the royal army over to Rhaegar when he finally reappears, and even follows Rhaegar’s advice in reaching out to Tywin.  As for the Kingsguards, we’re told that they were some of the last people he still trusted in that time period (except notably for Jaime).

Which seems to all add up to the idea that father and son came to some sort of understanding after Harrenhal, and Rhaegar had Aerys leave to take the Kingsguards with him on whatever he was planning.  And once again, the only thing that I can think would have united them (even if only temporarily) was the idea of hatching dragons.

[Tucu]

20 hours ago, LynnS said:

Who is the weirwood tree? Is it Bloodraven? Or Bran?

brooding:   showing deep unhappiness of thought

knowingly:  in a way that suggests one has secret knowledge or awareness.

How much will be left of Bran and BR after they join the hive-mind. In the ADwD prologue we have a peek at Varamyr's little hive-mind.

Varamyr hates Jon because Jon killed Orell:

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Orell had been slain by the turncloak crow Jon Snow, and his hate for his killer had been so strong that Varamyr found himself hating the beastling boy as well

Varamyr despises himself because of what he did to Haggon:

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Abomination, he heard Haggon saying. It was almost as if he were here, in this very room

And then Thistle comes into play:

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Thistle arched her back and screamed.

Abomination. Was that her, or him, or Haggon? He never knew. His old flesh fell back into the snowdrift as her fingers loosened. The spearwife twisted violently, shrieking. His shadowcat used to fight him wildly, and the snow bear had gone half-mad for a time, snapping at trees and rocks and empty air, but this was worse. "Get out, get out!" he heard her own mouth shouting. Her body staggered, fell, and rose again, her hands flailed, her legs jerked this way and that in some grotesque dance as his spirit and her own fought for the flesh. She sucked down a mouthful of the frigid air, and Varamyr had half a heartbeat to glory in the taste of it and the strength of this young body before her teeth snapped together and filled his mouth with blood. She raised her hands to his face. He tried to push them down again, but the hands would not obey, and she was clawing at his eyes. Abomination, he remembered, drowning in blood and pain and madness. When he tried to scream, she spat their tongue out.

"He never knew" might be the best answer we will get.

[Tucu]

Going back to Harrenhal and its political background. I think we can use the Alayne's play to gather bits and pieces of what was going on.

The Lord Declarants are first seen from a "god's view" perspective:

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She rested her hands on the carved stone balustrade and made herself peer over the edge. She could see Sky six hundred feet below, and the stone steps carved into the mountain, the winding way that led past Snow and Stone all the way down to the valley floor. She could see the towers and keeps of the Gates of the Moon, as small as a child's toys. Around the walls the hosts of Lords Declarant were stirring, emerging from their tents like ants from an anthill. If only they were truly ants, she thought, we could step on them and crush them.

Six of the most powerful lords in the Vale were conspiring to take control of mad Robin:

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The six had gathered at Runestone after Lysa Arryn's fall, and there made a pact together, vowing to defend Lord Robert, the Vale, and one another. Their declaration made no mention of the Lord Protector, but spoke of "misrule" that must be ended, and of "false friends and evil counselors" as well.

But the Lord Protector outsmarts them, gains a reprieve and continues his plan to turn them against each other:

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"Your lady must go thirsty." Bronze Yohn put himself squarely in Corbray's path.

<...>

Hunter lurched to his feet so wildly that he almost knocked the flagon out of Alayne's hands. "You gave us safe conduct!"

"Yes. Be grateful that I have more honor than some." Petyr sounded as angry as she had ever heard him. "I have read your declaration and heard your demands. Now hear mine. Remove your armies from this mountain. Go home and leave my son in peace. Misrule there has been, I will not deny it, but that was Lysa's work, not mine. Grant me but a year, and with Lord Nestor's help I promise that none of you shall have any cause for grievance."

<...>

“I had to know. What will happen in a year?”

He put down his quill. “Redfort and Waynwood are old. One or both of them may die. Gilwood Hunter will be murdered by his brothers. Most likely by young Harlan, who arranged Lord Eon’s death. In for a penny, in for a stag, I always say. Belmore is corrupt and can be bought. Templeton I shall befriend. Bronze Yohn Royce will continue to be hostile, I fear, but so long as he stands alone he is not so much a threat.”

“And Ser Lyn Corbray?”

The candlelight was dancing in his eyes. “Ser Lyn will remain my implacable enemy. He will speak of me with scorn and loathing to every man he meets, and lend his sword to every secret plot to bring me down.”

That was when her suspicion turned to certainty. “And how shall you reward him for this service?”

In the following chapters we have mad Robin making his way out of his isolation to attend a tourney where the Lord Protector's plot with the "heir" will continue.

[LynnS]

Tropes - Accidental Truth

Accidental Truth - TV Tropes

If Only You Knew - TV Tropes

An example is Ned realizing the truth of Cersei's children because Sansa clues him into the fact that she would produce beautiful babies with gold hair.  Sansa spills the truth accidentally without knowing it.

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A Game of Thrones - Sansa V

"His leg was broken," Sansa replied eagerly. "It hurt ever so much, Maester Pycelle was giving him milk of the poppy, and they say that milk of the poppy fills your head with clouds. Otherwise he would never have said it."

Varys said, "A child's faith … such sweet innocence … and yet, they say wisdom oft comes from the mouths of babes."

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A Game of Thrones - Sansa III

"Sweet one," her father said gently, "listen to me. When you're old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord who's worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong. This match with Joffrey was a terrible mistake. That boy is no Prince Aemon, you must believe me."

"He is!" Sansa insisted. "I don't want someone brave and gentle, I want him. We'll be ever so happy, just like in the songs, you'll see. I'll give him a son with golden hair, and one day he'll be the king of all the realm, the greatest king that ever was, as brave as the wolf and as proud as the lion."

Arya made a face. "Not if Joffrey's his father," she said. "He's a liar and a craven and anyhow he's a stag, not a lion."

Sansa felt tears in her eyes. "He is not! He's not the least bit like that old drunken king," she screamed at her sister, forgetting herself in her grief.

Father looked at her strangely. "Gods," he swore softly, "out of the mouth of babes …" He shouted for Septa Mordane. To the girls he said, "I am looking for a fast trading galley to take you home. These days, the sea is safer than the kingsroad. You will sail as soon as I can find a proper ship, with Septa Mordane and a complement of guards … and yes, with Syrio Forel, if he agrees to enter my service. But say nothing of this. It's better if no one knows of our plans. We'll talk again tomorrow."

Does Arya blurt out an accidental truth?

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A Game of Thrones - Arya III

"You realize I had half my guard out searching for you?" Eddard Stark said when they were alone. "Septa Mordane is beside herself with fear. She's in the sept praying for your safe return. Arya, you know you are never to go beyond the castle gates without my leave."

"I didn't go out the gates," she blurted. "Well, I didn't mean to. I was down in the dungeons, only they turned into this tunnel. It was all dark, and I didn't have a torch or a candle to see by, so I had to follow. I couldn't go back the way I came on account of the monsters. Father, they were talking about killing you! Not the monsters, the two men. They didn't see me, I was being still as stone and quiet as a shadow, but I heard them. They said you had a book and a bastard and if one Hand could die, why not a second? Is that the book? Jon's the bastard, I bet."

"Jon? Arya, what are you talking about? Who said this?"

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A character says something that connects to a fact or event of which they're unaware, usually to someone who is in the know. A common variation of this is You Look Like You've Seen a Ghost. Often shows up in supernatural settings with a Masquerade, but mundane versions can occur, such as the Arrogant Kung-Fu Guy telling Sweet Polly Oliver she "fights like a girl".

Yes the Book where Baratheons only have black hair and blue eyes.  If you believe Maggie's prophecy that Robert will have sixteen bastard; where are the other nine?  Is it a case of a dog that didn't bark?  Do they go unidentified because they don't have black hair and blue eyes?  It would be ironic if Ned was keeping Jon hidden from Robert, not because he was a Targ, but because he was a Baratheon and an obstacle to Tywin Lannister.   Ned would rather trust a pit viper than a Lannister.

 

 

 

[alienarea]

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

  It would be ironic if Ned was keeping Jon hidden from Robert, not because he was a Targ, but because he was a Baratheon and an obstacle to Tywin Lannister. 

It would be interesting to see Jon fully grown. His berserker fighting mode is more Robert than Rhaegar it seems. But Robert would recall having slept wity Lyanna, wouldn't he?

 

[LynnS]

12 hours ago, alienarea said:

It would be interesting to see Jon fully grown. His berserker fighting mode is more Robert than Rhaegar it seems. But Robert would recall having slept wity Lyanna, wouldn't he?

 

I've always wondered if Robert let something slip on his wedding night, when he climbs on top of Cersei, and calls her Lyanna.  If it wasn't just a case of drunken fantasy, but a replay of something that had already happened. 

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

I've always wondered if Robert let something slip on his wedding night, when he climbs on top of Cersei, and calls her Lyanna.  If it wasn't just a case of drunken fantasy, but a replay of something that had already happened. 

That strange gurgle you can hear is a drain laughing 

[alienarea]

10 hours ago, LynnS said:

I've always wondered if Robert let something slip on his wedding night, when he climbs on top of Cersei, and calls her Lyanna.  If it wasn't just a case of drunken fantasy, but a replay of something that had already happened. 

That is possible, maybe at Harrenhal? 

But if Robert had slept with Lyanna, I always expected him to tell, maybe drunk. Something rude like "Rhaegar may have raped her a thousand times, but I had her first.".

GRRM missed a call to Achilles. When he was ten, Cat should have placed warhammer and a lute in the Winterfell yard and called for Jon.

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

But if Robert had slept with Lyanna, I always expected him to tell, maybe drunk. Something rude like "Rhaegar may have raped her a thousand times, but I had her first.".

Or too drunk to remember.

[Melifeather]

On 6/12/2021 at 9:00 AM, LynnS said:

Yes the Book where Baratheons only have black hair and blue eyes.  If you believe Maggie's prophecy that Robert will have sixteen bastard; where are the other nine?  Is it a case of a dog that didn't bark?  Do they go unidentified because they don't have black hair and blue eyes?  It would be ironic if Ned was keeping Jon hidden from Robert, not because he was a Targ, but because he was a Baratheon and an obstacle to Tywin Lannister.   Ned would rather trust a pit viper than a Lannister.

Because GRRM emphasizes the Baratheon "look" of black hair and blue eyes - (one a dominant trait, the other recessive) he must have done a bit of genetic research. Black hair is a dominant trait and a parent with black hair will typically have children with black hair unless he/she carries recessive alleles. If one of Robert's ancestors had blond hair then it is at least possible that one of his recessive alleles matched up with a recessive Lannister allele to create a blond child, but the likelihood of that occurring three times in a row is quite unlikely. GRRM has however, inserted a great-grandmother that may have been blond or at least carried a blond allele: Rhaelle Targaryen, daughter of Aegon V and "black" Betha Blackwood, but I'm thinking any child of Black Betha probably also had black hair.

Now going back to Robert's piercing blue eyes... Blue eyes are recessive, but if both parents have blue eyes the child will most likely have blue eyes. Any other pairing the other color would dominate. Lyanna Stark, Jon Snow, and Ned Stark all have dark grey eyes with dark brown hair. If Jon were Robert's son he should've inherited the black hair, but the dark grey eyes would be dominant over the blue. Ashara Dayne had dark brown hair with violet eyes. If Ashara was Jon's mother then dark brown hair would be a given, but again, dark grey eyes would likely dominate over violet. Whoever Jon's parents were the Stark genes have dominated meaning the other parent either had similar hair and eye colors or had recessive genetic colors.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Whoever Jon's parents were the Stark genes have dominated meaning the other parent either had similar hair and eye colors or had recessive genetic colors.

Awww.  There's no accounting for the magical gene pool factor then?  The recessive Zed chromosome?   

[Melifeather]

41 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Awww.  There's no accounting for the magical gene pool factor then?  The recessive Zed chromosome?   

Of course there's magic, but GRRM also emphasized the Targaryen genetic qualities of golden or silver hair and violet eyes. Not every Targaryen has those colors though, because various family members married outside the family or took mistresses and the resulting children of those couplings tended to look like the outsider parents which is probably why the Targarayens thought they needed to marry within the family and keep their recessive genes.

[Black Crow]

54 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Of course there's magic, but GRRM also emphasized the Targaryen genetic qualities of golden or silver hair and violet eyes. 

There'ns magic obviously and there's real life, but more importantly there's what GRRM has chosen to draw attention to.

So far as Jon Snow is concerned he has emphasised the Stark origins with all the subtlety of a train crash. There is no doubting that he is a Stark, a son of Winterfell. His mother was Lyanna Stark, but its interesting that there no genetic clues anent his father, especially when he uses such clues so frequently in identifying other bastards

[Melifeather]

37 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

His mother was Lyanna Stark,

We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. I don't believe Lyanna was his mother, but I do think Ned really was his father.

[LynnS]

23 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I don't believe Lyanna was his mother, but I do think Ned really was his father

Who's the mother?

[Melifeather]

15 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Who's the mother?

I had refrained from including who I think the mother is so as to head off another parental thread! But since you’ve specifically asked I think Jon’s mother is Ashara and that she is still alive living at Starfall as Wylla, a parallel being played out right now by Sansa/Alayne.

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I had refrained from including who I think the mother is so as to head off another parental thread! But since you’ve specifically asked I think Jon’s mother is Ashara and that she is still alive living at Starfall as Wylla, a parallel being played out right now by Sansa/Alayne.

Ok.  How is it a parallel of Sansa as Alayne?

[Melifeather]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Ok.  How is it a parallel of Sansa as Alayne?

To the rest of Westeros Littlefinger is Alayne’s father, but we know Alayne is Sansa and Littlefinger is definitely not her father. 
 

Ned said Jon’s mother’s name is Wylla, and because of Ned Dayne we know Wylla was his nursemaid and that she’s been with the family for many years. The parallel is that of a noble lady pretending to be a commoner in her father’s home. 
 
The household and stable staff living and working at Winterfell believe Ashara is Jon’s mother. How the fuck, pardon my French, would a few peasants, who rarely leave the place, even know who bloody Lady Ashara Dayne even is unless they met her? Secretive Ned Stark wouldn’t have told the household who she was unless he planned to marry her after the war, but after his marriage of necessity to Catelyn, dishonored Ashara faked her own death. 

[alienarea]

Did we ever discuss Lyanna having had a virgin birth?

If Jon comes back from the dead that fits nicely.

:P

[Frey family reunion]

On 6/12/2021 at 4:07 PM, alienarea said:

It would be interesting to see Jon fully grown. His berserker fighting mode is more Robert than Rhaegar it seems. But Robert would recall having slept wity Lyanna, wouldn't he?

 

I've actually thought his beserker mode was more akin to his uncle, (perhaps father?) Brandon Stark.  After all Robert was able to keep his cool at Harrenhal, Brandon wasn't.

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

There'ns magic obviously and there's real life, but more importantly there's what GRRM has chosen to draw attention to.

So far as Jon Snow is concerned he has emphasised the Stark origins with all the subtlety of a train crash. There is no doubting that he is a Stark, a son of Winterfell. His mother was Lyanna Stark, but its interesting that there no genetic clues anent his father, especially when he uses such clues so frequently in identifying other bastards

Yes, it is interesting that Jon looks Stark through and through.  Almost as if ...