Heresy 235 The Winter Snow

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yes, it is interesting that Jon looks Stark through and through.  Almost as if ...

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A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

"And why was that?" Luwin peered through his tube.

"It was something to do about Jon, I think." The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so than any of the other crow dreams. "Hodor won't go down into the crypts."

 

 

[Frey family reunion]

 

28 minutes ago, LynnS said:

"It was something to do about Jon, I think." The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so than any of the other crow dreams. "Hodor won't go down into the crypts."

Yea, that is an interesting tidbit.  And apparently Bran repressed a part of the dream, which Bran tends to do when something is too disturbing.  Perhaps he takes after his old man with that.

Ned too is plagued by dark disturbing dreams near the end of his life:

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When he kept very still, his leg did not hurt so much, so he did his best to lie unmoving. For how long he could not say. There was no sun and no moon. He could not see to mark the walls. Ned closed his eyes and opened them; it made no difference. He slept and woke and slept again. He did not know which was more painful, the waking or the sleeping. When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises.

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“I believe she will allow you to take the black and live out the rest of your days on the Wall, with your brother and that baseborn son of yours.”
The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him …”

 

So the question is, what info would Ned have about Jon that would be so deeply disturbing to Bran?  What secret did Ned keep from Jon that would fill him with such shame and sorrow?

 Bran certainly knows about the tale that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped his Aunt Lyanna.  I suppose if he were to believe that Jon was a product of that, he would certainly find it disturbing.  Would Ned feel a sense of shame for keeping that info secret from Jon?

Bran would also find it deeply disturbing that his dead Aunt and Uncle may have fathered Jon.   Would Ned feel a sense of shame for keeping that info secret from Jon?

It certainly becomes a lot more personal to Ned if the secret he kept from Jon was that his father was Brandon and Lyanna.  It could also raise a specter of doubt as to Ned’s motivations for keeping that secret from Jon.  Jon could come to the conclusion that if it were known that Brandon was Jon’s father, his claim to Winterfell might be stronger than that of his step brothers and sisters.  Especially if Ned had ever bothered to legitimize Jon.

I know it’s everyone’s least favorite parentage option, but so much of it seems to fit into Jon’s story arc, much more easily than Rhaegar being Jon’s father.

I find it suspicious that we’re nearing the end of our tale and GRRM hasn’t laid the groundwork in Jon’s story arc to make the reveal of Rhaegar being Jon’s father really pay off in a meaningful way.  But Jon’s desire for Winterfell vs. his oath to the Wall has continued throughout Jon’s arc.  

The fact that Bran’s “conversation” with Ned took place in the crypts and the fact that Jon’s Winterfell dreams take place in the crypts, might both point to where the secret is buried.  In the tombs of Lyanna and Brandon.

[Melifeather]

Ned would also have been filled with shame and regret to have taken a noble-woman's maidenhood, gotten her pregnant, and then broken a promise to marry her, because he needed the alliance with the Tullys more. Bran would know his father was an oathbreaker on top of letting everyone believe Rhaegar kidnapped his sister.

[Black Crow]

15 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yes, it is interesting that Jon looks Stark through and through.  Almost as if ...

... he has no Targaryen blood in his veins ? 

[Black Crow]

12 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

 

Yea, that is an interesting tidbit.  And apparently Bran repressed a part of the dream, which Bran tends to do when something is too disturbing.  Perhaps he takes after his old man with that...

So the question is, what info would Ned have about Jon that would be so deeply disturbing to Bran?  What secret did Ned keep from Jon that would fill him with such shame and sorrow?

And why did he associate it with Hodor's fear of the crypts ?

[LynnS]

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A Clash of Kings - Bran III

"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green.

"I swear it by bronze and iron," his sister said.

"We swear it by ice and fire," they finished together.

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A Storm of Swords - Catelyn II

Robb stood on the dais. He is a boy no longer, she realized with a pang. He is sixteen now, a man grown. Just look at him. War had melted all the softness from his face and left him hard and lean. He had shaved his beard away, but his auburn hair fell uncut to his shoulders. The recent rains had rusted his mail and left brown stains on the white of his cloak and surcoat. Or perhaps the stains were blood. On his head was the sword crown they had fashioned him of bronze and iron. He bears it more comfortably now. He bears it like a king.

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A Storm of Swords - Catelyn III

"I owe their fathers truth," said Robb. "And justice. I owe them that as well." He gazed at his crown, the dark gleam of bronze, the circle of iron swords. "Lord Rickard defied me. Betrayed me. I have no choice but to condemn him. Gods know what the Karstark foot with Roose Bolton will do when they hear I've executed their liege for a traitor. Bolton must be warned.

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A Feast for Crows - Brienne VIII

A trestle table had been set up across the cave, in a cleft in the rock. Behind it sat a woman all in grey, cloaked and hooded. In her hands was a crown, a bronze circlet ringed by iron swords. She was studying it, her fingers stroking the blades as if to test their sharpness. Her eyes glimmered under her hood.

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A Clash of Kings - Catelyn I

Her son's crown was fresh from the forge, and it seemed to Catelyn Stark that the weight of it pressed heavy on Robb's head.

The ancient crown of the Kings of Winter had been lost three centuries ago, yielded up to Aegon the Conqueror when Torrhen Stark knelt in submission. What Aegon had done with it no man could say. Lord Hoster's smith had done his work well, and Robb's crown looked much as the other was said to have looked in the tales told of the Stark kings of old; an open circlet of hammered bronze incised with the runes of the First Men, surmounted by nine black iron spikes wrought in the shape of longswords. Of gold and silver and gemstones, it had none; bronze and iron were the metals of winter, dark and strong to fight against the cold.

"Here are the nine swords of the crown of winter:

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A Game of Thrones - Jon VI

The sun was sinking below the trees when they reached their destination, a small clearing in the deep of the wood where nine weirwoods grew in a rough circle. Jon drew in a breath, and he saw Sam Tarly staring. Even in the wolfswood, you never found more than two or three of the white trees growing together; a grove of nine was unheard of. The forest floor was carpeted with fallen leaves, bloodred on top, black rot beneath. The wide smooth trunks were bone pale, and nine faces stared inward. The dried sap that crusted in the eyes was red and hard as ruby. Bowen Marsh commanded them to leave their horses outside the circle. "This is a sacred place, we will not defile it."

Do Jojen and Meera swear allegiance to the crown of the kings of winter?

 

[Black Crow]

12 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I find it suspicious that we’re nearing the end of our tale and GRRM hasn’t laid the groundwork in Jon’s story arc to make the reveal of Rhaegar being Jon’s father really pay off in a meaningful way.  But Jon’s desire for Winterfell vs. his oath to the Wall has continued throughout Jon’s arc.  

The fact that Bran’s “conversation” with Ned took place in the crypts and the fact that Jon’s Winterfell dreams take place in the crypts, might both point to where the secret is buried.  In the tombs of Lyanna and Brandon.

I think that the first paragraph above is a seriously important one. As I said many years ago there are other "Targaryen candidates" on the stage, and Danaerys even has dragons. If Jon really is to be a serious contender for the Iron Throne he needs to be getting a move on.

In reality, Winterfell is much more important and Jon's dreams of the crypts don't point at the tombs of Lyanna. and Brandon, but something older and darker, something perhaps being awakened - and that's why Hodor is afraid

[Black Crow]

12 minutes ago, LynnS said:

"Here are the nine swords of the crown of winter:

Do Jojen and Meera swear allegiance to the crown of the kings of winter?

 

No, the crown of the Kings of Winter represents that grove - and the Pact; the faces are the nine kings given to the Wood to seal it.

[LynnS]

12 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I know it’s everyone’s least favorite parentage option, but so much of it seems to fit into Jon’s story arc, much more easily than Rhaegar being Jon’s father.

Yes it's the one xyz theory that people find the most repulsive and the tendency is to reject it immediately.  It calls to mind Alfie Allen's comment, that when asked;  Martin said it was a Luke Skywalker kind of situation, or words to that affect.  Perhaps a referral to Luke falling in love with his twin sister; a plot point which was later given over to Jaime and Cersei.   That then implies that Jon's uncle is his father.  

The problem for me, as far as Ned goes is that he doesn't include Jon as his biological son in his private thoughts:

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII

To her credit, Cersei did not look away. "He saw us. You love your children, do you not?"

Robert had asked him the very same question, the morning of the melee. He gave her the same answer. "With all my heart."

"No less do I love mine."

Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

That would seem to give more weight to Brandon as Jon's father.  The other thing that crosses my mind is that Ned's ghost may have told Bran that Jon's mother was Lyanna and nothing about the father.  In which case; Bran would assume that Ned is Jon's father and Jon, a bastard born of incest. 

[LynnS]

18 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I think that the first paragraph above is a seriously important one. As I said many years ago there are other "Targaryen candidates" on the stage, and Danaerys even has dragons. If Jon really is to be a serious contender for the Iron Throne he needs to be getting a move on.

In reality, Winterfell is much more important and Jon's dreams of the crypts don't point at the tombs of Lyanna. and Brandon, but something older and darker, something perhaps being awakened - and that's why Hodor is afraid

I like this a lot.  The thing that Bran sees in the heart of winter/darkness.  The terrible knowledge that he buries.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I like this a lot.  The thing that Bran sees in the heart of winter/darkness.  The terrible knowledge that he buries.

The implication of course is that whatever the real nature of that terrible thing, it lies within, below Winterfell, not somewhere in the remotest north

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

The problem for me, as far as Ned goes is that he doesn't include Jon as his biological son in his private thoughts:

I don't know why you would say this when the quote you provided actually does include Jon in Ned's thoughts. He's just not grouped with his trueborn siblings. 

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

 

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

No, the crown of the Kings of Winter represents that grove - and the Pact; the faces are the nine kings given to the Wood to seal it.

That's an interesting interpretation of the crown, the nine iron swords surrounding the bronze circlet. I tend to think of the iron as a ward, but I could see how it might be viewed as a protective circle around the magic. Are there only nine green men on the Isle of Faces?

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I don't know why you would say this when the quote you provided actually does include Jon in Ned's thoughts. He's just not grouped with his trueborn siblings.

OK, I'm not dissing your opinion.  This is just how I read it.  Your opinion isn't any less valid than mine.  

[Tucu]

I like the contrast between the characters regarding what lurks in the darkness.

Arya makes friends with the monsters and laughs in the darkness (this is from her escape from the Red Keep)

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This time the monsters did not frighten her. They seemed almost old friends.<...>

When the spirit stepped out of the open tomb, pale white and moaning for blood, Sansa ran shrieking for the stairs, and Bran wrapped himself around Robb’s leg, sobbing. Arya stood her ground and gave the spirit a punch.<...>

The memory made Arya smile, and after that the darkness held no more terrors for her.<...>

Her footsteps sent soft echoes hurrying ahead of her as Arya plunged deeper into the darkness.

Jamie is terrified even if the darkness is his place:

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They gave no answer, only prodded him with the points of their spears. He had no choice but to descend. Down a twisting passageway he went, narrow steps carved from the living rock, down and down. I must go up, he told himself. Up, not down. Why am I going down? Below the earth his doom awaited, he knew with the certainty of dream; something dark and terrible lurked there, something that wanted him. Jaime tried to halt, but their spears prodded him on. If only I had my sword, nothing could harm me.

The steps ended abruptly on echoing darkness. Jaime had the sense of vast space before him. He jerked to a halt, teetering on the edge of nothingness. A spearpoint jabbed at the small of the back, shoving him into the abyss. He shouted, but the fall was short. He landed on his hands and knees, upon soft sand and shallow water. There were watery caverns deep below Casterly Rock, but this one was strange to him. "What place is this?"

"Your place." The voice echoed; it was a hundred voices, a thousand, the voices of all the Lannisters since Lann the Clever, who'd lived at the dawn of days. But most of all it was his father's voice, and beside Lord Tywin stood his sister, pale and beautiful, a torch burning in her hand. Joffrey was there as well, the son they'd made together, and behind them a dozen more dark shapes with golden hair.

<...>

“Sister, why has Father brought us here?” “Us? This is your place, Brother. This is your darkness.”

Bran has embraced the darkness and his doom:

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One day I will be like him. The thought filled Bran with dread. Bad enough that he was broken, with his useless legs. Was he doomed to lose the rest too, to spend all of his years with a weirwood growing in him and through him? Lord Brynden drew his life from the tree, Leaf told them. He did not eat, he did not drink. He slept, he dreamed, he watched. I was going to be a knight, Bran remembered. I used to run and climb and fight. It seemed a thousand years ago.

What was he now? Only Bran the broken boy, Brandon of House Stark, prince of a lost kingdom, lord of a burned castle, heir to ruins. He had thought the three-eyed crow would be a sorcerer, a wise old wizard who could fix his legs, but that was some stupid child's dream, he realized now. I am too old for such fancies, he told himself. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. That was as good as being a knight. Almost as good, anyway.

And Jon seems to be refusing to accept that what lurks in the darkness and calls him is his heritage:

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And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It's black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it's not them I'm afraid of. I scream that I'm not a Stark, that this isn't my place, but it's no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream

<...>

He dreamt he was back in Winterfell, limping past the stone kings on their thrones. Their grey granite eyes turned to follow him as he passed, and their grey granite fingers tightened on the hilts of the rusted swords upon their laps. You are no Stark, he could hear them mutter, in heavy granite voices. There is no place for you here. Go away. He walked deeper into the darkness. "Father?" he called. "Bran? Rickon?" No one answered. A chill wind was blowing on his neck. "Uncle?" he called. "Uncle Benjen? Father? Please, Father, help me." Up above he heard drums. They are feasting in the Great Hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and this is not my place. His crutch slipped and he fell to his knees. The crypts were growing darker

 

 

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

OK, I'm not dissing your opinion.  This is just how I read it.  Your opinion isn't any less valid than mine.  

Preceding the passage is Cersei's admission of the incest between herself and Jaime. I'm assuming since Ned is asking Cersei for "truths" that when he brings up Bran and she simply says, "he saw us" that Ned was asking for confirmation that they were responsible for trying to kill him.

The transition leading into his thoughts of placing the choice of "the life of some child I did not know" in direct juxtaposition to his trueborn children IS regarding Jon. Jon is the "some child" Ned didn't know he had. Ned confirms this by what he thinks next - "Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body?" Ned was thinking about the choice he made (to raise Jon himself) versus what Catelyn's choice would have been had it been up to her whether or not to take Jon home. 

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Preceding the passage is Cersei's admission of the incest between herself and Jaime. I'm assuming since Ned is asking Cersei for "truths" that when he brings up Bran and she simply says, "he saw us" that Ned was asking for confirmation that they were responsible for trying to kill him.

The transition leading into his thoughts of placing the choice of "the life of some child I did not know" in direct juxtaposition to his trueborn children IS regarding Jon. Jon is the "some child" Ned didn't know he had. Ned confirms this by what he thinks next - "Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body?" Ned was thinking about the choice he made (to raise Jon himself) versus what Catelyn's choice would have been had it been up to her whether or not to take Jon home. 

I might point out that I realize Ned's thoughts could be interpreted several ways even though the first one I offered is my preference. The "some child I did not know" could also work if Jon were Lyanna's child, Rhaegar's child, Brandon's child, Ashara's by Brandon, etc and Ned was simply thinking of Jon as his adopted child. However, because he specifically mentions Catelyn's children that came out of her "body", then to me he is saying that Jon is Catelyn's stepchild.

[Back in Black-Snow]

Part of me thinks that when the George sat down with Dan and Dave when they came to him to pitch their idea and desire to make a TV series based on his books, and he asked them who they thought Jon Snow's mother was, that they may not have necessarily been correct. But George gave them his blessing because their answer is what he wants his readers to think at this point in the story, until he gives the ultimate reveal in either The Winds of Winter or A Dream of Spring.

Maybe he was thinking, "Let's see what they do with this" (Gotchya!), all the while he has either something else in mind, or maybe he is not sure what he wants to do there, and planted enough seeds to make it possible for a variety of options to be possible.

I don't necessarily believe that (I tend to believe R+L=J), but it would not surprise me. Almost like a big Gotchya! (I'm hearing a long, drawn out "Mmmmwwah-Haa-ha-ha") that makes his book sales explode, and gives him time to ultimately make up his mind what he wants to do.

[Melifeather]

2 minutes ago, Travis said:

Part of me thinks that when the George sat down with Dan and Dave when they came to him to pitch their idea and desire to make a TV series based on his books, and he asked them who they thought Jon Snow's mother was, that they may not have necessarily correct. But George gave them his blessing because their answer is what he wants his readers to think at this point in the story, until he gives the ultimate reveal in either The Winds of Winter or A Dream of Spring.

Maybe he was thinking, "Let's see what they do with this" (Gotchya!), all the while he has either something else in mind, or maybe he is not sure what he wants to do there, and planted enough seeds to make it possible for a variety of options to be possible.

I don't necessarily believe that (I tend to believe R+L=J), but it would not surprise me. Almost like a big Gotchya! (I'm hearing a long, drawn out "Mmmmwwah-Haa-ha-ha") that makes his book sales explode, and gives him time to ultimately make up his mind what he wants to do.

I agree that GRRM would be pleased that D&D did not guess correctly and that they would move forward with R+L=J for the same reasons that you suggest. Not so much so that GRRM could say "gotcha" but that he wants to be able to surprise and delight his readers.

[Black Crow]

12 hours ago, Travis said:

Part of me thinks that when the George sat down with Dan and Dave when they came to him to pitch their idea and desire to make a TV series based on his books, and he asked them who they thought Jon Snow's mother was, that they may not have necessarily been correct. But George gave them his blessing because their answer is what he wants his readers to think at this point in the story, until he gives the ultimate reveal in either The Winds of Winter or A Dream of Spring.

Maybe he was thinking, "Let's see what they do with this" (Gotchya!), all the while he has either something else in mind, or maybe he is not sure what he wants to do there, and planted enough seeds to make it possible for a variety of options to be possible.

I don't necessarily believe that (I tend to believe R+L=J), but it would not surprise me. Almost like a big Gotchya! (I'm hearing a long, drawn out "Mmmmwwah-Haa-ha-ha") that makes his book sales explode, and gives him time to ultimately make up his mind what he wants to do.

I agree that GRRM may not have been entirely candid because the question as framed might be significant. R+L=J was a solidly established reader theory years before the Mummers approached him, so, as they said answering the question correctly safisfied him that they had not just read the books but were familiar with them. However, it may be significant that GRRM didn't actually ask who Jon's parents were, but who his mother was. The Mummers, naturally assumed their correct answer was confirmation of R+L=J and so it might be, but as we've discussed so many times, a correct answer on L for Lyanna doesn't necessarily equate to the unasked R for Rhaegar. If it isn't I'll cheerfully admit that I don't have a preferred alternative choice, but I do, very firmly believe that whether it is indeed in fact Rhaegar or even Rumpelstiltskin, what is going to be crucial to the resolution is that Jon is a son of Winterfell.

[Frey family reunion]

19 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I might point out that I realize Ned's thoughts could be interpreted several ways even though the first one I offered is my preference. The "some child I did not know" could also work if Jon were Lyanna's child, Rhaegar's child, Brandon's child, Ashara's by Brandon, etc and Ned was simply thinking of Jon as his adopted child. However, because he specifically mentions Catelyn's children that came out of her "body", then to me he is saying that Jon is Catelyn's stepchild.

While I think I lean towards LynnS's interpretation that the quote implies that Jon is not Ned's child, I can see your argument as well.

After all most nobles would draw a hard line between their legal children and their bastards, and think of them separately especially in a scenario like this.  I've often thought of Ned as different than most lords, but .

But to add further credence to your argument, even if Jon is not Ned's biological son, he is certainly Ned's adopted son, so without a doubt Ned certainly doesn't elevate Jon to the status of his natural/legal children.

To me the most interesting aspect of that quote, is the idea that Jon would think of Cat as a potential threat to Jon.  So the question is what does Ned think would happen to make Cat a threat to Jon?

I can see the R + L crowd's argument that Cat might turn Jon over to Robert if she learned that Rhaegar was Jon's father to avoid any retribution from the Crown.  But part of that flies in the face of Ned's seemingly honest belief that Robert would never harm any of his family.  It also doesn't really address the true source of the enmity between Cat and Jon.  

Cat's real fear of Jon lies in the threat that Jon poses to her children and future grandchildren's inheritance.  Despite the fact that Jon is a bastard, and despite the fact that Cat evidently thinks Robb to be older than Jon, she seems to have a very real fear that Jon or his descendants might contest her family's right to Winterfell.

And Cat's conflict with Jon certainly lines up with Jon's own internal conflict, which is his desire for Winterfell vs his oath to the Wall and his own fondness for his step brothers and step sisters.  Which is why I keep coming back to the idea that the true source of Ned's inner conflict and shame concerning Jon, is more intimate, then a belief that Robert would ever harm Jon.

And Jon being Brandon's son would open up all sorts of internal conflict for Eddard.  It would also be the one secret that Eddard would especially want to keep from Cat.  Because it would only add to Cat's enmity over Jon regarding the danger he posed to her children's rights to Winterfell, and because of the fact that Brandon was Cat's first true love.  And the one she was meant to marry.

Early on there was a tease that the memory of Brandon was something that always came between the two:

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Catelyn softened then, to see his pain. Eddard Stark had married her in Brandon’s place, as custom decreed, but the shadow of his dead brother still lay between them, as did the other, the shadow of the woman he would not name, the woman who had borne him his bastard son.

So if Lyanna was indeed Jon's mother, and if Brandon was Jon's father than it's the shadow of Brandon and Lyanna that lay between Cat and Ned.  And you could further argue that the shadow of Brandon and Lyanna is personified in Jon.  Jon being the source of conflict between Ned and Cat.