Heresy 235 The Winter Snow

[Melifeather]

23 hours ago, Melifeather said:

"the life of some child I did not know"

When Ned is thinking about the choice he made - the decision to bring (the life of) some child he didn't know into his own home implies that he wasn't aware of the child's existence until it was already born - at least that's how it reads to me. If Jon is indeed Ned's child by Ashara (Wylla) then the comments made by Lord Godric would place his conception during the time of the Fisherman's Daughter tale:

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A Dance with Dragons - Davos I

"This child king commands the wealth of Casterly Rock and the power of Highgarden. He has the Boltons and the Freys." Lord Godric rubbed his chin. "Still … in this world only winter is certain. Ned Stark told my father that, here in this very hall."

"Ned Stark was here?"

"At the dawn of Robert's Rebellion. The Mad King had sent to the Eyrie for Stark's head, but Jon Arryn sent him back defiance. Gulltown stayed loyal to the throne, though. To get home and call his banners, Stark had to cross the mountains to the Fingers and find a fisherman to carry him across the Bite. A storm caught them on the way. The fisherman drowned, but his daughter got Stark to the Sisters before the boat went down. They say he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly. Jon Snow, she named him, after Arryn.

"Be that as it may. My father sat where I sit now when Lord Eddard came to Sisterton. Our maester urged us to send Stark's head to Aerys, to prove our loyalty. It would have meant a rich reward. The Mad King was open-handed with them as pleased him. By then we knew that Jon Arryn had taken Gulltown, though. Robert was the first man to gain the wall, and slew Marq Grafton with his own hand. 'This Baratheon is fearless,' I said. 'He fights the way a king should fight.' Our maester chuckled at me and told us that Prince Rhaegar was certain to defeat this rebel. That was when Stark said, 'In this world only winter is certain. We may lose our heads, it's true … but what if we prevail?' My father sent him on his way with his head still on his shoulders. 'If you lose,' he told Lord Eddard, 'you were never here.' "

 

I still like the idea of Jon being "born in the crypts" like the ancient Bastard O Winterfell, which is just a colorful way of saying that people wouldn't think of Ashara as being a possible candidate for his mother, because they think she's dead. Like I've suggested before. Ashara could have went into hiding as a fisherman's daughter named Wylla - just like Sansa is hiding as Alayne. 

[LynnS]

This:

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

So if Lyanna was indeed Jon's mother, and if Brandon was Jon's father than it's the shadow of Brandon and Lyanna that lay between Cat and Ned.  And you could further argue that the shadow of Brandon and Lyanna is personified in Jon.  Jon being the source of conflict between Ned and Cat.

 

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

So if Lyanna was indeed Jon's mother, and if Brandon was Jon's father than it's the shadow of Brandon and Lyanna that lay between Cat and Ned.  And you could further argue that the shadow of Brandon and Lyanna is personified in Jon.  Jon being the source of conflict between Ned and Cat.

I just can't see how a child of incest would garner enough support to take Winterfell. Not only would he be a bastard, but he'd be an incestuous bastard. A thing of disgust and revulsion. I realize that Cersei and Jaime's children all wear crowns, but it was through deception. If Jon is the son of Brandon and Lyanna, his parentage would make him a pariah - an outcast. In other words, Catelyn would have nothing to worry about.

[alienarea]

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

However, it may be significant that GRRM didn't actually ask who Jon's parents were, but who his mother was.

I'm probably around here long enough for you to know that I was not serious and cracking a mighty big pot when I suggested that Lyanna has had a virgin birth, but

1. it fits with GRRM asking DnD who in their opinion is the mother of Jon Snow (and not asking for a father)

2. it fits with the genetics and Jon looking Starkiest of all Starks

3. Jon coming back from the dead in the tv show (the other example was a virgin birth as well)

4. it's a Star Wars moment, just not Luke/Leia but Anakin/Shmi (sp?)

5. Jon's dream of being clad in black armor wielding a fiery (=red) sword is a Darth Vader reference

6. Lynn's post about the CotF literally being Children of the Forest, i.e. children of the weirwoods (please read her post). If blue roses grow in Winterfell, and are special weirwood-mutant roses because we all know that blue roses do not exist in real life, did Rhaegar impregnate Lyanna by the laurel of blue roses?

7. Also fitting with Daenery's vision of a blue rose in a wall of ice

8. Jon is literally a son of Winterfell, i.e. son of the blue roses

9. The story has some references to the war of the roses

 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

4. it's a Star Wars moment, just not Luke/Leia but Anakin/Shmi (sp?)

Alfie Allen claims George told him who Jon's parents were and he said:

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You know, I asked him about who Jon Snow's real parents were, and he told me. I can't say who, but I can tell you that it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation.

Maybe the reporter mistook Alfie Allen and didn't realize that Alfie was quoting GRRM when he said, "I can't say who, but I can tell you that it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation."

Well, the people that Luke thought were his parents were actually his aunt and uncle, but when (I'm guessing) GRRM said it was "a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation", that he didn't mean the comparison was exactly like it - just "a bit", which could simply be the mystery of his mother. Jon asked Ned who his mother was and obviously the answer wasn’t as simple as just telling him who Wylla is. Since Ned is dead, I think Jon will actually get to meet his living mother and SHE will be the one to tell Jon about herself just as Darth Vader did with Luke. The Luke Skywalker moment will be, "(Jon) I am your mother".

[LynnS]

14 hours ago, Black Crow said:

we've discussed so many times, a correct answer on L for Lyanna doesn't necessarily equate to the unasked R for Rhaegar.

It's still an open question for me regardless of RLJ's popularity.  Although I can't say I care all that much about one theory over another.  I'm more curious about why it would matter since Martin is making a big mystery out of it. 

5 hours ago, alienarea said:

6. Lynn's post about the CotF literally being Children of the Forest,

That's shaking the can more or less, to see if anything falls out.  Also cracking a mighty big pot.   A virgin birth by alien manipulation sounds very "Village of the Damned".

 

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

It's still an open question for me regardless of RLJ's popularity.  Although I can't say I care all that much about one theory over another.  I'm more curious about why it would matter since Martin is making a big mystery out of it. 

That's largely the point of the OP.

Obsessing with Rhaegar draws attention away from Lyanna. There are nods to her in promoting the theory that Jon is the product of Ice and Fire and therefore represents the "balance" between the two, but historically the R+L=J theory has primarily pushed Jon as the son of Rhaegar, the rightful heir to the Iron Throne and Azor Ahai  [the champion of Fire] all rolled into one.

Pursuing that return of the King scenario very effectively masks the importance of Lyanna as Jon's mother and the importance of his being a son of Winterfell

 

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

That's largely the point of the OP.

Obsessing with Rhaegar draws attention away from Lyanna. There are nods to her in promoting the theory that Jon is the product of Ice and Fire and therefore represents the "balance" between the two, but historically the R+L=J theory has primarily pushed Jon as the son of Rhaegar, the rightful heir to the Iron Throne and Azor Ahai  [the champion of Fire] all rolled into one.

Pursuing that return of the King scenario very effectively masks the importance of Lyanna as Jon's mother and the importance of his being a son of Winterfell

 

The funny thing about the "balance" theory is the mixing ice and fire can led to some very explosive situations like subglacial eruptions:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Eyjafjallajökull_by_Terje_Sørgjerd.jpg?1623924546666

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/MtRedoubtedit1.jpg/1920px-MtRedoubtedit1.jpg

I will gladly accept R+L if the result is extremely destructive. I doubt that any saviour with come from ice and/or fire

[Black Crow]

37 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The funny thing about the "balance" theory is the mixing ice and fire can led to some very explosive situations like subglacial eruptions:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Eyjafjallajökull_by_Terje_Sørgjerd.jpg?1623924546666

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/MtRedoubtedit1.jpg/1920px-MtRedoubtedit1.jpg

I will gladly accept R+L if the result is extremely destructive. I doubt that any saviour with come from ice and/or fire

Oh yes indeed. A balance between the two equal but separate elements is fine - per the Reeds' oath, but a union...

Similarly of course, if Master Benero and Our Mel are to believed an outright victory by Azor Ahai, R'hllor and Fire would literally be horrific 

[Frey family reunion]

22 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I just can't see how a child of incest would garner enough support to take Winterfell. Not only would he be a bastard, but he'd be an incestuous bastard. A thing of disgust and revulsion. I realize that Cersei and Jaime's children all wear crowns, but it was through deception. If Jon is the son of Brandon and Lyanna, his parentage would make him a pariah - an outcast. In other words, Catelyn would have nothing to worry about.

I think you bring up a valid point, but you're also coming at this issue from a dispassionate, rational viewpoint.  I'm not sure any of the principal players in this scenario are able to do the same.  

I don't think Cat's fear of Jon is completely rational.  Yet it exists, and in my opinion would undoubtably grow even worse if she found out that Jon was Brandon's son.  I think in her mind he becomes both a bigger threat and an unpleasant reminder of Brandon's own unfaithfulness to her.

But regardless, Ned's internal monologue is very strange, no matter who Jon's father is.

Cersei raises the idea of what Ned would do if a child he didn't know became a threat to his children.  

Ned's thoughts then turn to what Cat would do to Jon if he ever became a threat to her children.  It's an odd thought to follow from that conversation.

First and foremost, Jon's not a child.  So it's strange that Ned's thoughts would segue to Jon.  And secondly, Ned has pretty much taken Jon from a situation where he should be a threat to Cat's children no matter the situation.  In reality, Ned's thoughts should have been relief that this scenario never came up with Jon and Cat while Jon was a child.  Instead, he seems to harbor fears that a future conflict between the two is still possible.  That Cat could possibly see Jon as a greater threat to her family in the future.

So take the R + L scenario for an instant.  Presumably, Ned's concern would be that Cat would turn Jon over to Robert if she learned that Jon was Rhaegar's son.  I suppose if Jon were still a child that scenario could be a legitimate concern.  But currently, Jon has left Winterfell and is with the Night's Watch.  I'm not sure how in this present scenario, Jon's secret "Targaryen" identity could still pose a threat to Cat and her children.  And how exactly would Cat turn Jon over to Robert, now that Jon is a member of the NIght's Watch?

It seems doubtful that Ned would fear that Cat would divulge Jon's identity to Robert if she learned of it to curry favor with Robert.  And I'm not sure in that scenario how Jon is a threat to Cat's children.

My only thought is that Ned may harbor a fear that Cat certainly still harbors.  That Jon one day may make a claim on Winterfell putting him in direct conflict with his Cat and their children.  

 

 

[Melifeather]

27 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Ned's thoughts then turn to what Cat would do to Jon if he ever became a threat to her children.  It's an odd thought to follow from that conversation.

My understanding is that Ned wondered what Catelyn would have done with Jon as a helpless infant if she had been presented with the choice at the time.

Another issue with regards to inheriting Winterfell is that a child of Lyanna’s by any man other than a Stark would never inherit before Catelyn’s children, so if Jon is not a product of incest, the odds are very good that Lyanna is also not his mother - if we are going off the inheritance threat idea.

I probably didn’t phrase that very well!

[Black Crow]

20 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

My only thought is that Ned may harbor a fear that Cat certainly still harbors.  That Jon one day may make a claim on Winterfell putting him in direct conflict with his Cat and their children.  

Yes, once again it all concerns Winterfell. If, just for the sake of argument, Lord Eddard really was Jon's father, then as one of his own children he could accept Jon as his heir especially as he was presumably, conceived out of love, however fleeting, rather than a dynastic transaction. He's cool.

Catelyn on the other hand is terrified that her children and their inheritance and status could be set aside by this usurper in the first instance and also in generations to come. Jon may not oust his brothers and sister's but Jon's own son might be a different matter, especially vis a vis a daughter of Robb.

Catelyn's fears and suspicions of Lord Eddard's bastard are therefore understandable and legitimate.

Jon as the son of Lyanna still poses that threat, albeit slightly removed but wars have been fought over less, especially given the Stark precedent of female succession

[Melifeather]

5 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Jon as the son of Lyanna still poses that threat, albeit slightly removed but wars have been fought over less, especially given the Stark precedent of female succession

I guess I cannot recall an instance where a Stark female inherited Winterfell. The story of the Bastard O Winterfell is about an inheritance issue, but an heir is provided by Bael. Also, the as yet unreleased She-Wolves of Winterfell is also about an ailing lord of Winterfell with no male heir.

[Black Crow]

Yes but the point is that the Stark line can run through the female and if the Mummers are true to the Santa Fe story arcs, Sansa may become the lady of Winterfell in the end. Right now Jon as a son of Lyanna Stark qualifies as a son of Winterfell . Whether Catelyn is aware of that doesn't matter, she thinks him to be Lord Eddard's bastard so the bloodline is there, especially if another generation removes the stain of bastardy.

Bran was crippled and could not succeed him, while Rickon was a small child. Robb's son [or daughter] was not yet born and so Jon was already the obvious heir or regent when Robb popped his cloggs. Catelyn had good reason to fear Jon and his son

[Tucu]

A small tease in The Mystery Knight that I have not noticed before: the dwarfs that stole the Whitewalls egg for BR might have been children (of the forest?):

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As he approached the postern gate, Dunk came upon the company of dwarfs from last night's feast preparing to take their leave. They were hitching ponies to their wheeled wooden pig, and a second wayn of more conventional design. There were six of them, he saw, each smaller and more malformed than the last. A few might have been children, but they were all so short that it was hard to tell. In daylight, dressed in horsehide breeches and roughspun hooded cloaks, they seemed less jolly than they had in motley

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Up close, the little man smelled like a privy. One whiff was enough to make Dunk hasten his steps.

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"Who took the dragon's egg? There were guards at the door, and more guards on the steps, no way anyone could have gotten into Lord Butterwell's bedchamber unobserved." Lord Rivers smiled. "Were I to guess, I'd say someone climbed up inside the privy shaft."

"The privy shaft was too small to climb."

"For a man. A child could do it."

"Or a dwarf," Dunk blurted. A thousand eyes, and one. Why shouldn't some of them belong to a troupe of comic dwarfs?

 

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Tucu said:

As he approached the postern gate, Dunk came upon the company of dwarfs from last night's feast preparing to take their leave. They were hitching ponies to their wheeled wooden pig, and a second wayn of more conventional design. There were six of them, he saw, each smaller and more malformed than the last. A few might have been children, but they were all so short that it was hard to tell. In daylight, dressed in horsehide breeches and roughspun hooded cloaks, they seemed less jolly than they had in motley

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

"Bones," said Bran. "It's bones." The floor of the passage was littered with the bones of birds and beasts. But there were other bones as well, big ones that must have come from giants and small ones that could have been from children. On either side of them, in niches carved from the stone, skulls looked down on them. Bran saw a bear skull and a wolf skull, half a dozen human skulls and near as many giants. All the rest were small, queerly formed. Children of the forest. The roots had grown in and around and through them, every one. A few had ravens perched atop them, watching them pass with bright black eyes.

Bran also meets six COTF in the Cave of Skulls:

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

The moon was fat and full. Stars wheeled across a black sky. Rain fell and froze, and tree limbs snapped from the weight of the ice. Bran and Meera made up names for those who sang the song of earth: Ash and Leaf and Scales, Black Knife and Snowylocks and Coals. Their true names were too long for human tongues, said Leaf. Only she could speak the Common Tongue, so what the others thought of their new names Bran never learned.

 

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Yes but the point is that the Stark line can run through the female and if the Mummers are true to the Santa Fe story arcs, Sansa may become the lady of Winterfell in the end. Right now Jon as a son of Lyanna Stark qualifies as a son of Winterfell . Whether Catelyn is aware of that doesn't matter, she thinks him to be Lord Eddard's bastard so the bloodline is there, especially if another generation removes the stain of bastardy.

Bran was crippled and could not succeed him, while Rickon was a small child. Robb's son [or daughter] was not yet born and so Jon was already the obvious heir or regent when Robb popped his cloggs. Catelyn had good reason to fear Jon and his son

I agree that these are things that may concern Lady Stoneheart now, but we were focusing on Ned's thoughts while he was yet alive and talking to Cersei. If Catelyn knew Jon was Lyanna's child, would she still view him as a threat? I think not, because she would know that Lyanna's child would not inherit before Robb, Bran, or Rickon. All of them would come before any bastard of his sister - even Sansa and Arya would have better claims. You have to wonder then, why didn't Ned put Catelyn's thoughts at ease? He could have confided in her, but he didn't. Why not? The most common reason offered is the idea that Jon needed to be protected from Robert, but we already seem to be in agreement that Ned never voiced concerns that Robert was a threat to anybody in his family. So I do think his thoughts are important, because they seem to support what we've already been told = that Jon IS Ned's bastard son. Establishing Jon at Winterfell prior to Catelyn and Robb's arrival now seems very deliberate. If she had gotten to Winterfell first, established the household, unpacked and all that, she would have objected more strongly. 

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Bran also meets six COTF in the Cave of Skulls:

 

Six children killed Kevan Lannister:

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They were all around him, half a dozen of them, white-faced children with dark eyes, boys and girls together. And in their hands, the daggers

I am scratching my head trying to guess the intended symbology of the number six or the six children

[LynnS]

7 hours ago, Tucu said:

Six children killed Kevan Lannister:

I am scratching my head trying to guess the intended symbology of the number six or the six children

Numerology (occult-mysteries.org)

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The number Six

The Pythagoreans called six or the Hexad 'the Perfection of parts', because it is formed by the multiplication of the first (beyond unity) odd number and the first even number (2 and 3), and so resembles the union of Male and Female. The Hexad is also the symbol of marriage, because it is formed by the union of two interlaced triangles, one masculine and the other feminine. When multiplied into itself, like the pentad, six also always has itself in the unit place, thus, 6, 36, 216, 1296, 7776.

The circumference of a globe has been fixed at 360 degrees, six sixties; the hour divided into 60 minutes, each of 60 seconds. The Tartars had a period of 60 days, the Chinese also; and the Asiatics generally a period of 60 years. Under this number we must not omit to mention the symbol of the double triangle, or Hexalpha, sometimes referred to as the Star of David. This should not be confused with the aforementioned Pentalpha or Pentagram, which is the true Solomon's seal. The Hexalpha has also been used as an emblem for the union of Fire and Water; for the early symbol of Fire was a triangle with the apex upward, and that of Water, with the apex downward.

Some house sigils seem to use numeric symbolism. 

Lots of interesting reading on the above website.  Check out the sidebar.

 

 

[Tucu]

10 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Numerology (occult-mysteries.org)

Some house sigils seem to use numeric symbolism. 

Lots of interesting reading on the above website.  Check out the sidebar.

 

 

Right, the Greeks loved the Perfect Numbers and incestuous relationships.

Gaea (Gaia/Earth) had 12 Titan children with her son Uranus (Sky); 6 female and 6 male. Her children Cronus and Rhea had 6 children: the first generation of Olympians (Zeus, Hades, Poseidon, Hestia, Demeter, and Hera).

This is also a tale of the sons seizing power from their fathers. Cronus deposed Uranus and in time Zeus deposed Cronus.