Heresy 235 The Winter Snow

[Black Crow]

10 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I agree that these are things that may concern Lady Stoneheart now, but we were focusing on Ned's thoughts while he was yet alive and talking to Cersei. If Catelyn knew Jon was Lyanna's child, would she still view him as a threat? I think not, because she would know that Lyanna's child would not inherit before Robb, Bran, or Rickon. All of them would come before any bastard of his sister - even Sansa and Arya would have better claims. You have to wonder then, why didn't Ned put Catelyn's thoughts at ease? He could have confided in her, but he didn't. Why not? The most common reason offered is the idea that Jon needed to be protected from Robert, but we already seem to be in agreement that Ned never voiced concerns that Robert was a threat to anybody in his family. So I do think his thoughts are important, because they seem to support what we've already been told = that Jon IS Ned's bastard son. Establishing Jon at Winterfell prior to Catelyn and Robb's arrival now seems very deliberate. If she had gotten to Winterfell first, established the household, unpacked and all that, she would have objected more strongly. 

I'm more inclined to think that two issues are [deliberately] being confused. Catelyn sees and always has seen Jon as a threat to the primacy of her own children. Robb is said to be the older of the two, but what is he's not. In theory bastardy is an impediment, but in practice [I'm speaking from historical precedent] it can be more ambiguous when you have two sons but only the younger is legitimate. At first all may be well but it is a dispute which can span multiple generations. Catelyn's fears of Jon are therefore entirely understandable.

Lord Eddard's fears for Jon, may be more interesting. I agree that its unlikely he fears that King Robert will seek to have him killed as a Targaryen spawn. I wonder, rather about how much Lord Eddard really knows about the Musgrave ritual. There's a long-established assumption in these here parts that because he was fostered out and his father and his elder brother died early, Eddard became Lord Eddard without knowing the family secrets. What if this reader assumption is unfounded? Why was Jon never told the story of Bael the Bard. Why did Lord Eddard's ghost want to tell Bran something about Jon? Obviously [to us] he wanted to tell him of Jon's true identity, but why should this matter to Bran, unless it was to parallel the [untold] story of Bael and how the bastard son became Lord of Winterfell, and going further were there to be consequences?

[Melifeather]

11 hours ago, Tucu said:

Six children killed Kevan Lannister:

I am scratching my head trying to guess the intended symbology of the number six or the six children

Yes, but Varys was there too making the group total seven.

[Frey family reunion]

21 hours ago, Melifeather said:

My understanding is that Ned wondered what Catelyn would have done with Jon as a helpless infant if she had been presented with the choice at the time.

Another issue with regards to inheriting Winterfell is that a child of Lyanna’s by any man other than a Stark would never inherit before Catelyn’s children, so if Jon is not a product of incest, the odds are very good that Lyanna is also not his mother - if we are going off the inheritance threat idea.

I probably didn’t phrase that very well!

Ned doesn’t seem concerned with what Cat would have done, he seems very concerned of what could occur:

Quote

Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon’s life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

He’s not wondering what Cat would have done.  He’s wondering what Cat would do. And then he prays that he would never find out.  He’s clearly still concerned about a potential Cat Jon conflict.  So the question is why.

And it’s not really the laws of inheritance that I think is of concern.  I think the real issue is whether circumstances could occur that would encourage conflict between Jon and Ned and Cat’s children.  Inheritance could play a part in that, but only a part.

After all, “legally” Daemon Blackfyre didn’t have much legal grounds to contest his brother.  But that didn’t stop the conflict.

And clearly Jon is chafing at the unfairness of the status of his birth in regards to his right to Winterfell:

Quote

That morning he called it first. “I’m Lord of Winterfell!” he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, “You can’t be Lord of Winterfell, you’re bastard-born. My lady mother says you can’t ever be the Lord of Winterfell.”
I thought I had forgotten that. Jon could taste blood in his mouth, from the blow he’d taken.
In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm. The ranger sat on the ground dazed, his shield half in splinters, the visor of his helm knocked askew, and his sword six yards away. “Jon, enough,” Halder was shouting, “he’s down, you disarmed him. Enough!”
No. Not enough. Never enough

Quote

You can’t be the Lord of Winterfell, you’re bastard-born, he heard Robb say again. And the stone kings were growling at him with granite tongues. You do not belong here. This is not your place.

I think we tend to get too hung up on the technicalities of these inheritance laws.  In the end they are all fictitious.  What I think is really the issue is the internal conflict, which could lead to an external one.

So my question is, why does Ned fear this possibility?  And is it tied into any secret that he’s keeping from Jon?  The same thing that leads him to feel shame and sorrow?

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Why did Lord Eddard's ghost want to tell Bran something about Jon? Obviously [to us] he wanted to tell him of Jon's true identity, but why should this matter to Bran, unless it was to parallel the [untold] story of Bael and how the bastard son became Lord of Winterfell, and going further were there to be consequences?

Ned's ghost had unfinished business so I imagine that's the reason for the haunting. In the mummer's version he promised Jon they would talk about his mother the next time they saw each other, but in the book the conversation never takes place. Instead, when Ned is in the black cells, Varys comes to offer him a deal and mentions Jon as his "baseborn" son. Bringing up Jon causes Ned to feel shame and sorrow:

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

"I want you to serve the realm," Varys said. "Tell the queen that you will confess your vile treason, command your son to lay down his sword, and proclaim Joffrey as the true heir. Offer to denounce Stannis and Renly as faithless usurpers. Our green-eyed lioness knows you are a man of honor. If you will give her the peace she needs and the time to deal with Stannis, and pledge to carry her secret to your grave, I believe she will allow you to take the black and live out the rest of your days on the Wall, with your brother and that baseborn son of yours."

The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him … pain shot through his broken leg, beneath the filthy grey plaster of his cast. He winced, his fingers opening and closing helplessly. "Is this your own scheme," he gasped out at Varys, "or are you in league with Littlefinger?"

 

Ned is filled with shame, because he fathered Jon outside of marriage. I could also imagine how a child of incest might cause Ned shame, but I cannot see why Ned would be filled with shame if Jon were Lyanna's child. 

[Frey family reunion]

1 minute ago, Melifeather said:

Ned is filled with shame, because he fathered Jon outside of marriage. I could also imagine how a child of incest might cause Ned shame, but I cannot see why Ned would be filled with shame if Jon were Lyanna's child. 

I think the R + L crowd would argue that it’s the lie that Ned feels shame for.  But I tend to think that it may be more than that.  

The other issue is the sorrow.  If Jon were the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, why the sorrow too deep for words?  I have a harder time with that one.  I don’t think that Ned is sorry that they deposed the Targaryen Kingdom, I think he feels quite justified in that.

He point blank tells Robert that Rhaegar’s death was vengeance for Lyanna.  Now it could be argued that Ned was just trying to appease Robert at the time, but it’s quite unlike Eddard to utter a lie if he doesn’t have to.  And he really didn’t have to at that point.  

So Ned probably isn’t feeling sorrow for the fact that Jon Targaryen lost his family entitlement to the Iron Throne.  

Earlier Ned’s sadness is specifically linked to his dead brother and sister:

Quote

“It has a name, does it?” Her father sighed. “Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. ‘The wolf blood,’ my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave.” Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born.”

 

[Melifeather]

40 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Ned doesn’t seem concerned with what Cat would have done, he seems very concerned of what could occur:

Quote

Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon’s life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

He’s not wondering what Cat would have done.  He’s wondering what Cat would do. And then he prays that he would never find out.  He’s clearly still concerned about a potential Cat Jon conflict.  So the question is why.

 

Yes. I agree with you on this interpretation. It is more present tense than past. But this choice brings up another thought...when you're discussing the life of one child against the the others it makes it sound like a life or death situation - as if Ned believed Catelyn has the potential in her to use deadly force if she felt her children were threatened. Maybe Brandon is Jon's father? (I still don't believe Lyanna is the mother) Perhaps Ned thought that claiming Jon as his bastard would be less threatening to Catelyn than if Jon were Brandon's? That would be an alternative that I could agree with and would better explain why Ashara "turned to Stark", meaning Ashara came to Ned after Brandon was executed. If she were pregnant, but not yet showing at court, she would have been compelled to leave secretly and went to Ned for help. If Brandon is Jon's father, then Ned's shame is more about what Jon had to go through, suffering Catelyn's persecution, not knowing the truth, and perhaps having more claim to Winterfell than Robb.

[Melifeather]

1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

He point blank tells Robert that Rhaegar’s death was vengeance for Lyanna.  Now it could be argued that Ned was just trying to appease Robert at the time, but it’s quite unlike Eddard to utter a lie if he doesn’t have to.  And he really didn’t have to at that point.

I think he would throw this line at Robert if he felt it would appease him and lessen his anger towards Daenerys. Ned has strong feelings about protecting children.

[Tucu]

So this might be where all those groups of six might be coming from: the structure of some crystals including most ice, snowflakes, rubies, and saphires.

33 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Yes, but Varys was there too making the group total seven.

Still a group of six (plus a boss). We have a lot of those: 6 BR's dwarfs, 6 "Craster's boys" in the prologue, 6 Stark children, 6 direwolves puppies, 6 Varys' birds finishing Kevan, the 6 Rhaegar's rubies that have been found, 6 named-CoTF in BR's cave. I am just curious what the significance is.

[Melifeather]

Just now, Tucu said:

So this might be where all those groups of six might be coming from: the structure of some crystals including most ice, snowflakes, rubies, and saphires.

Still a group of six (plus a boss). We have a lot of those: 6 BR's dwarfs, 6 "Craster's boys" in the prologue, 6 Stark children, 6 direwolves puppies, 6 Varys' birds finishing Kevan, the 6 Rhaegar's rubies that have been found, 6 named-CoTF in BR's cave. I am just curious what the significance is.

The seventh is the Stranger, and presumably the leader of the pack.

[Frey family reunion]

5 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I think he would throw this line at Robert if he felt it would appease him and lessen his anger towards Daenerys. Ned has strong feelings about protecting children.

At the time they weren’t arguing about murdering Dany and her unborn child.  If it occurred at that point, I’d agree.  At the time Ned was trying to convince Robert that Jaime was untrustworthy.  So it really wasn’t necessary.  It’s a small point, but the argument that Eddard respected Rhaegar because he didn’t think Rhaegar would have frequented brothels might be a bit misplaced.

It’s certainly an odd line, but I’m not sure that it suffices to say that Eddard was sorry that Rhaegar was killed.  And if he was, I don’t think he would have told Robert that Rhaegar’s death was vengeance for Lyanna unless the conversation left him with no other choice.

[Melifeather]

13 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

At the time they weren’t arguing about murdering Dany and her unborn child.  If it occurred at that point, I’d agree.  At the time Ned was trying to convince Robert that Jaime was untrustworthy.  So it really wasn’t necessary.  It’s a small point, but the argument that Eddard respected Rhaegar because he didn’t think Rhaegar would have frequented brothels might be a bit misplaced.

It’s certainly an odd line, but I’m not sure that it suffices to say that Eddard was sorry that Rhaegar was killed.  And if he was, I don’t think he would have told Robert that Rhaegar’s death was vengeance for Lyanna unless the conversation left him with no other choice.

The comment about Rhaegar would make sense if Ned knew he wasn't responsible for Lyanna's disappearance. I still believe Tywin orchestrated her abduction with a group of his men in disguise. And maybe that would also help explain Ned's comment. I think one of Lyanna's promises was to conceal the truth from Robert so that his conquest would not be questioned.

[Black Crow]

I still feel that the two viewpoints on Jon are at cross-purposes. Catelyn's feelings anent Jon are very deep seated, clearly articulated and ultimately justified.

So far as Lord Eddard is concerned, we're encouraged to think Lord Eddard fears a threat from the King - but why? Jon looks like him, is all-too obviously a Stark, and doesn't even display a treacherous birthmark far less silver-blond hair or any other Targaryen features.

Eddard [and Lyanna] know the answer to the Musgrave ritual, which is why he made a promise to his dying sister and why, his ghost needed to warn Bran.

[LynnS]

28 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Still a group of six (plus a boss). We have a lot of those: 6 BR's dwarfs, 6 "Craster's boys" in the prologue, 6 Stark children, 6 direwolves puppies, 6 Varys' birds finishing Kevan, the 6 Rhaegar's rubies that have been found, 6 named-CoTF in BR's cave. I am just curious what the significance is.

Six plus one wizard? 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Arya III

"Too soon, too soon," the voice with the accent complained. "What good is war now? We are not ready. Delay."

"As well bid me stop time. Do you take me for a wizard?"

The other chuckled. "No less." Flames licked at the cold air. The tall shadows were almost on top of her. An instant later the man holding the torch climbed into her sight, his companion beside him. Arya crept back away from the well, dropped to her stomach, and flattened herself against the wall. She held her breath as the men reached the top of the steps.

 

 

[LynnS]

9 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Eddard [and Lyanna] know the answer to the Musgrave ritual, which is why he made a promise to his dying sister and why, his ghost needed to warn Bran.

And Howland and Jojen.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"What will I know?" Bran asked the Reeds afterward, when they came with torches burning brightly in their hand, to carry him back to a small chamber off the big cavern where the singers had made beds for them to sleep. "What do the trees remember?"

"The secrets of the old gods," said Jojen Reed. Food and fire and rest had helped restore him after the ordeals of their journey, but he seemed sadder now, sullen, with a weary, haunted look about the eyes. "Truths the First Men knew, forgotten now in Winterfell … but not in the wet wild. We live closer to the green in our bogs and crannogs, and we remember. Earth and water, soil and stone, oaks and elms and willows, they were here before us all and will still remain when we are gone."

  

[Tucu]

Going back to subglacial eruptions for a second...today Netflix released an Icelandic sci-fi/fantasy TV series called Katla

Quote

You never really know what happens when a volcano erupts. The population of the Icelandic town Vik must face this a year after the eruption of the volcano Katla. Suddenly they are experiencing mysterious incidents that disturb the town peace

Lots of ice, fire, ravens and some multi-verse/time-travelling elements.

 

[Matthew.]

19 hours ago, Melifeather said:

The most common reason offered is the idea that Jon needed to be protected from Robert, but we already seem to be in agreement that Ned never voiced concerns that Robert was a threat to anybody in his family.

I don't know if Robert would be a threat, but plenty of other people would be, if RLJ were true, and widely known. Most explicitly, Tywin, who wouldn't want any obstacles to his grandchildren inheriting the throne. Plenty of players would either want a known son of Rhaegar to be dead, or view him as an opportunity to build a rebellion around--all of which Eddard would reasonably want to protect Jon from.

None of this is to advocate that RLJ is true (though, by this point, I suspect that it is), but there's nothing about Eddard's secretiveness that is narratively inconsistent with RLJ, or that demands a different answer.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

I don't know if Robert would be a threat, but plenty of other people would be, if RLJ were true, and widely known. Most explicitly, Tywin, who wouldn't want any obstacles to his grandchildren inheriting the throne. Plenty of players would either want a known son of Rhaegar to be dead, or view him as an opportunity to build a rebellion around--all of which Eddard would reasonably want to protect Jon from.

None of this is to advocate that RLJ is true (though, by this point, I suspect that it is), but there's nothing about Eddard's secretiveness that is narratively inconsistent with RLJ, or that demands a different answer.

Speaking of Tywin and other Lannisters...they seem to have accepted Ned's story that Jon is his bastard son fathered on a common woman. This family, probably more than any of the other families investigates everybody. Both Littlefinger and Varys have spied for them. If there was even an inkling that Lyanna had been impregnated by Rhaegar, I think Tywin would have wanted to make sure. Just my opinion and I realize that there isn't any evidence for or against this idea, but it fits the character.

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, Tucu said:

Going back to subglacial eruptions for a second...today Netflix released an Icelandic sci-fi/fantasy TV series called Katla

Lots of ice, fire, ravens and some multi-verse/time-travelling elements.

 

This looks interesting. Is it all in sub titles?

[Tucu]

28 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

This looks interesting. Is it all in sub titles?

They have English dubs (and others). I am watching in the original Icelandic with subtitles. The mix of Icelandic, Swedish and English (as lingua franca) adds a nice touch.

[alienarea]

8 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Ned's ghost had unfinished business so I imagine that's the reason for the haunting. In the mummer's version he promised Jon they would talk about his mother the next time they saw each other, but in the book the conversation never takes place. Instead, when Ned is in the black cells, Varys comes to offer him a deal and mentions Jon as his "baseborn" son. Bringing up Jon causes Ned to feel shame and sorrow:

Ned is filled with shame, because he fathered Jon outside of marriage. I could also imagine how a child of incest might cause Ned shame, but I cannot see why Ned would be filled with shame if Jon were Lyanna's child. 

Also, getting back to 6, if Jon is Ned's son, Ned has fathered six children.