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Did Joanna make Tywin Hand?


Lord Varys

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Joanna Lannister was at court during the reign of Jaehaerys II while Tywin spent most of his time on the Stepstones and then later in the West dealing with the Reynes and Tarbecks. He wasn't a courtier when Aerys II rose to the Iron Throne.

How likely is it that it was Joanna's suggestion that the new king name Tywin his Hand? Yes, they were friends, but Tywin was still very young, meaning it would have been controversial for Aerys II to name Tywin his Hand - think how Jaehaerys I could only make Barth his Hand after first trying Myles Smallwood.

Sure, it is possible that the young king was headstrong enough to hand that office to his old buddy ... but couldn't he have been persuaded by the woman he allegedly lusted after?

Even if we dismiss Aerys II deflowering Joanna in 259 AC and the rumor that she was his mistress at the beginning of his reign - although the latter would fit very nicely with the idea we are discussing - then it still stands to reason that a Joanna who has the ear of the king because he is in love with her/desires her could convince him to do all sorts of things.

What do you think?

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This would definitely fit within her character if she was an ambitious women. Although we know very little of Joanna, to me it seems that for someone like Tywin to feel affectionate towards her most mean she shared his passion and ambition for their house.

Her arranging marriages between her twins and the princess of dornes children also highlights her ambition. However this could just be two good friends wanting to marry their children to each other.

I don’t know whether tywin and aerys were good friends during the reign of jaeherys. But if they were just acquaintances that got along with each other than it is very possible that Joanna played a big part on making Tywin hand. Maybe aerys thought of naming some experienced lord as hand. And Joanna couldve been the one that pushed him towards Tywin.

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3 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

This would definitely fit within her character if she was an ambitious women. Although we know very little of Joanna, to me it seems that for someone like Tywin to feel affectionate towards her most mean she shared his passion and ambition for their house.

The single thing we know about Joanna's character is that she supposedly ruled Tywin. That definitely indicates ambition of a sort.

3 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

Her arranging marriages between her twins and the princess of dornes children also highlights her ambition. However this could just be two good friends wanting to marry their children to each other.

That is clearly some sort thing Joanna came up with for some reason ... and something she decided to see through, independent of what her husband had to say in the matter. Joanna apparently never even talked to Tywin about this - or he pretended she didn't - but the Princess of Dorne would have never made that journey if she had not expected that the thing would go through.

3 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

I don’t know whether tywin and aerys were good friends during the reign of jaeherys. But if they were just acquaintances that got along with each other than it is very possible that Joanna played a big part on making Tywin hand. Maybe aerys thought of naming some experienced lord as hand. And Joanna couldve been the one that pushed him towards Tywin.

Tywin was fostered at the court of Aegon V for a couple of years after he quarreled with his father over Genna's marriage, and that's how he befriended both Aerys II and Steffon Baratheon. This bond deepened later when they went to the Stepstones together where Tywin knighted Aerys.

But afterwards Tywin returned to the West, and Aerys lived at court with his father, presumably. But Joanna was a lady-in-waiting in service of Princess Rhaella.

The friendship between Aerys and Tywin could have led to the appointment, of course. But it would have been highly unusual to pick a Hand this young and inexperienced. And Aerys II was both a guy who liked to be praised as well as not exactly the sharpest knife in the box. He is not all that likely to rock the boat at the beginning of his reign without somebody whispering in his ear.

On his own, he may even have kept all the old advisers and courtiers his father and grandfather had worked with.

If we had evidence that Tywin was there, at KL, when Jaehaerys II died, or if he showed up for the funeral of the king, etc. then we could assume that Tywin's own voice in the young king's ear may have been enough ... but if he wasn't there then Joanna - who we know was there - is a much better candidate.

And the whole rumor about Joanna being one of Aerys' mistresses very early in his reign could also make sense in light of that. We do know that Aerys II didn't entertain his many mistresses all that long, and we do not exactly how long after his coronation Aerys II made Tywin his Hand.

If Joanna had the ambition to make Tywin - who may already have been her betrothed at the time - Hand, then one way to accomplish that could have been her to become Aerys' mistress, exert whatever influence that gave her over him, and persuade him to make Tywin his Hand. When the decision was made she could have ended the relationship which we do not have to imagine as a very public affair.

The idea that Joanna was Aerys II's mistress while Tywin was already at court and Hand is harder to swallow ... although that's certainly also not impossible considering they only married a couple of years later and we don't even know when exactly the betrothal was made. If Joanna was still a free woman at that time, Tywin definitely would have had no right to get jealous or angry over this nor would he have the right to stop her affair with the king.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Joanna apparently never even talked to Tywin about this - or he pretended she didn't - but the Princess of Dorne would have never made that journey if she had not expected that the thing would go through.

I question if there was ever any talks between Joanna and the Princess of Dorne, or if that is just a tale the Princess made up to sell her offer.  How marriage proposals strongly favored the Martells while were diminishing to the Lannisters.  Oberyn, third in line, would be a terrible match for Cersei, the only daughter of House Lannister.  While, the sickly and much older Elia would be a poor match for the heir of Casterly Rock.  

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19 minutes ago, Minsc said:

I question if there was ever any talks between Joanna and the Princess of Dorne, or if that is just a tale the Princess made up to sell her offer.  How marriage proposals strongly favored the Martells while were diminishing to the Lannisters.  Oberyn, third in line, would be a terrible match for Cersei, the only daughter of House Lannister.  While, the sickly and much older Elia would be a poor match for the heir of Casterly Rock.  

If the offer never happened then it was more likely something Oberyn invented from scratch to mess with Tyrion ... because the entire point of the story is to drive a wedge between Tyrion and his family.

If the Princess went to Casterly Rock then there would have been an offer. The Princess of Dorne would have never made such a journey with two of her children for nothing.

Oberyn is the second son of a Princess of Dorne. The Lannisters never married Targaryens, so such a match wouldn't be that bad. What little we know about historical Lannister women they didn't exactly marry into high nobility on a regular basis. Also keep in mind that Joanna didn't plan to die, one imagines, meaning she and Tywin could have had more children.

Elia had her problems, but if she was good enough for the Prince of Dragonstone she would have been good enough for Jaime, too. The guy wasn't a prince.

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It’s a nice theory. It could have happened that way. Although Joana would have been a virtuous woman for Tywin to love her. Tywin has the stature to bypass social expectations. Eyebrows would raise if Aerys had chosen a young man from a minor house. It’s different with a Lannister. 

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21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oberyn is the second son of a Princess of Dorne. The Lannisters never married Targaryens, so such a match wouldn't be that bad. What little we know about historical Lannister women they didn't exactly marry into high nobility on a regular basis.

Even if one ignores Tywin's ambition for her to marry Rhaegar, Cersei can still do better than a second son (who is also concidently third in-line).  Brandon, Edmure, Robert, and likely Mace were unmarried at that time if Tywin wanted to look for another great house.  Even a heir from relatively smaller house like Hightower, Redwyne, etc would be better than an individual third in-line, such as Oberyn. 

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If the Princess went to Casterly Rock then there would have been an offer. The Princess of Dorne would have never made such a journey with two of her children for nothing.

If she had an offer from the Lannisters then why scope out House Hightower for a match?

28 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Elia had her problems, but if she was good enough for the Prince of Dragonstone she would have been good enough for Jaime, too. The guy wasn't a prince.

Elia wasn't ten/nine years older than Rhaegar.  Meanwhile, she was ten/nine years older than Jaime.  That is a larger age gap than between Margaery and Tommen all while having the added disadvantaged of her being sickly.

Aerys likely agreed to the match between Rhaegar and Elia, because Martell was the next closest great house with Targaryen blood with daughters.

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9 hours ago, Prince Rhaego Targaryen said:

It’s a nice theory. It could have happened that way. Although Joana would have been a virtuous woman for Tywin to love her. Tywin has the stature to bypass social expectations. Eyebrows would raise if Aerys had chosen a young man from a minor house. It’s different with a Lannister. 

We don't really know how virtuous Joanna was, nor what shit Tywin would have taken from a woman who supposedly ruled him and who he apparently loved very much. If you look how Cersei controlled Jaime for most of their relationship we might get a glimpse how Joanna may have played Tywin. Even more so in light of the fact that Tywin seems to have been sexually submissive, if you think about Shae wearing the chain of the Hand after she had sex with Tywin. She would have only done that if Tywin wanted her to do it.

And Tywin fucking Shae at all - the leavings of his ugly dwarf son - is very weird in and of itself, making Pycelle's claim that proud Tywin Lannister would never take another man's leavings completely ridiculous.

9 hours ago, Minsc said:

Even if one ignores Tywin's ambition for her to marry Rhaegar, Cersei can still do better than a second son (who is also concidently third in-line).  Brandon, Edmure, Robert, and likely Mace were unmarried at that time if Tywin wanted to look for another great house.  Even a heir from relatively smaller house like Hightower, Redwyne, etc would be better than an individual third in-line, such as Oberyn.

It could have been part of Joanna's rash decision to separate Jaime and Cersei after she discovered their incestuous relationship. If Joanna and the Princess were friends, she may have been the noblewoman she could have turned to in light of that. If this was the plan then I guess Joanna would have wanted to send Cersei as a ward to Sunspear while keeping Jaime at CR.

And while being a lady at a lord's side is better ... marrying into House Martell is, effectively, the most prestigious thing you can do. Insofar as power and titles are concerned - which constitute prestige - they are the second best match in the Seven Kingdoms after the royal family.

And we do know that Tywin's ambition was to marry his daughter to royalty. Rhaegar was the original goal, but he also started to target Viserys after he was born. We see the same thing with Margaery-Tommen, etc.

9 hours ago, Minsc said:

If she had an offer from the Lannisters then why scope out House Hightower for a match?

Because the whole journey was some kind of coming-of-age pleasure trip. The siblings were supposed to have fun on the way.

9 hours ago, Minsc said:

Elia wasn't ten/nine years older than Rhaegar.  Meanwhile, she was ten/nine years older than Jaime.  That is a larger age gap than between Margaery and Tommen all while having the added disadvantaged of her being sickly.

Yes, but health issues do not always figure into such matches. Alys Arryn was married to mad Rhaegel. What was the point of that?

Keep in mind that all it needs for such a match to be made is that the mothers are friends. Sansa-Joffrey also just happens because Robert and Ned were friends - similarly, one imagines, Robert-Lya happened because Robert and Ned had already been friends back then.

If Joanna and the Princess were buddies and viewed it as a good idea to bind their houses together by marrying their children to each other then this would be done. Matters like age gaps and health issues would be ignored. That's the nature of arranged marriages.

9 hours ago, Minsc said:

Aerys likely agreed to the match between Rhaegar and Elia, because Martell was the next closest great house with Targaryen blood with daughters.

That is an idea one might consider ... but him later complaining that his granddaughter smelled Dornish casts doubt on that idea (although the guy being mad and having a changeable nature we also have to consider). It is more likely that the Princess of Dorne arranged that match via Queen Rhaella - to thwart Tywin's plans for Cersei. I guess the fact that the Martells were distant Targaryen cousins played a role there - possibly for both Rhaella and Aerys II - but there must have been other such cousins. Tarths, Penroses, Plumms, etc. But the Princess seems to have been the one such cousin with the best connections at court.

And it is actually really brilliant how she thwarted Tywin there while he was right there as Hand of the King and could do nothing about it.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And while being a lady at a lord's side is better ... marrying into House Martell is, effectively, the most prestigious thing you can do. Insofar as power and titles are concerned - which constitute prestige - they are the second best match in the Seven Kingdoms after the royal family.

Maybe if she was marrying Doran.  I doubt that one that is third in-line is considered the second best compared to heirs of other great houses (the Royal Family is different.)  Moreover, despite their title, I bet plenty of lords don't consider them the second most prestigious in the realm.  Especially, when one accounts for the disdain people have for the Dornish.

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Matters like age gaps and health issues would be ignored. That's the nature of arranged marriages.

Age and health issues that might affect a lady's ability to birth children would be of uttermost important when deciding the wife for one's heir.  The lady's main sell being her ability to birth heirs of her own.  By the time, Jaime would be expected to start fathering his own heirs the sickly Elia would be around 26.  Around an age in the series where she is told she can't have any more children.

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is an idea one might consider ... but him later complaining that his granddaughter smelled Dornish casts doubt on that idea (although the guy being mad and having a changeable nature we also have to consider).

I am sure he would have complained about any difference of his grandchildren.  For example, if Rhaegar married Catelyn then they would have smelt like fish and so forth.

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13 minutes ago, Minsc said:

Maybe if she was marrying Doran.  I doubt that one that is third in-line is considered the second best compared to heirs of other great houses (the Royal Family is different.)  Moreover, despite their title, I bet plenty of lords don't consider them the second most prestigious in the realm.  Especially, when one accounts for the disdain people have for the Dornish.

But what do you expect? The Lannisters are not known for their great marriages - Tarbecks, Kyndalls, Farmans, Reynes, Marbrands, Webbers and other Lannisters.

There were some obscure Baratheon matches, to be sure, and one Redwyne match which was quite prestigious, one imagines, but that's it.

The Martells are another great house and the most independent great house in Westeros.

13 minutes ago, Minsc said:

Age and health issues that might affect a lady's ability to birth children would be of uttermost important when deciding the wife for one's heir.  The lady's main sell being her ability to birth heirs of her own.  By the time, Jaime would be expected to start fathering his own heirs the sickly Elia would be around 26.  Around an age in the series where she is told she can't have any more children.

If Rhaegar could marry Elia despite her issues, then Jaime could have, too. But I don't really think that this match was Joanna's plan. I think the idea was more that Oberyn marry Cersei and the twins are separated by Cersei accompanying Oberyn back to Sunspear. The Princess first asks for the Cersei-Oberyn match, after all.

We don't have to view this as a match made by ambition as such, but rather as a desperate means to prevent Cersei and Jaime from producing abominable bastards. And to ensure that nothing about this incest is revealed to the public. That would have been very damaging for House Lannister. The Princess may not have known about the details, explaining why she later offered matches for both her children.

In fact, if we look at the timeline this makes more and more sense. The Princess learned of Tyrion's birth and Joanna's death at Oldtown, meaning rather early in their tour, and Joanna was already visibly pregnant when she learned of Jaime-Cersei. Tywin wasn't yet back in CR for the birth, so there was still some time, possibly a couple of months, before the actual birth. Enough time for Joanna to write a letter to her friend and the Princess deciding to come to Casterly Rock for a visit.

The whole cabin thing on the ship also supports that idea since for any match the Princess made under normal circumstances she would not have to take the future bride/groom as a fosterling - especially not if the idea was to marry Elia/Oberyn to somebody in their own age.

And under normal circumstances marriages are not rushed, i.e. if Baelor Brightsmile or some Hightower or Redwyne girl, etc. would have fallen for Elia/Oberyn then they would have scheduled a wedding, not taken them back with them to Sunspear. Elia would have joined her husband's most likely, in any case, if she had married an heir, and even Oberyn may have decided to join the family of his spouse.

And if Joanna had told or hinted at why she was doing this then this also explains why the Princess didn't tell her children about this before ... because it was a very delicate matter. Something she would only reveal to Oberyn on her deathbed.

13 minutes ago, Minsc said:

I am sure he would have complained about any difference of his grandchildren.  For example, if Rhaegar married Catelyn then they would have smelt like fish and so forth.

Could certainly be. But - again, if Elia's health issues would have been a problem for Joanna, in your opinion, then they must have been even more problematic for the Targaryens - who desperately wanted more heirs. Yet the Princess was still able to arrange that marriage. Distant Targaryen cousin or not, a barren woman would be a very bad match for the Prince of Dragonstone.

It is also pretty curious that the Princess didn't find a husband for Elia after 273 AC. That implies the Princess decided that Cersei would not marry Prince Rhaegar. Instead Elia would marry him. And then she made that happen.

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3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If Rhaegar could marry Elia despite her issues, then Jaime could have, too.

The issues are less for Rhaegar than Jaime.  Rhaegar and Elia could start trying for heirs relatively soon.  Jaime and Elia would have to wait around ten years of prime birthing years for Elia before they can start trying for heirs.

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But what do you expect? The Lannisters are not known for their great marriages - Tarbecks, Kyndalls, Farmans, Reynes, Marbrands, Webbers and other Lannisters.

Yet, despite for when ran by the disasterous Tytos, are they marrying individuals that are third in-line?  Joanna would have been aware of Tywin's objection when Tytos gave Genna to a Frey that wasn't a heir.  Why would she think he would be okay with marrying his eldest daughter so someone equally not a heir?

 

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18 minutes ago, Minsc said:

The issues are less for Rhaegar than Jaime.  Rhaegar and Elia could start trying for heirs relatively soon.  Jaime and Elia would have to wait around ten years of prime birthing years for Elia before they can start trying for heirs.

Elia could start to work with Jaime as soon as possible, they could even marry child Jaime to her, like Tommen-Margaery. Viserys II became a father at a very young age, too. Sure, they would have wait at least 4-5 years, but Elia wouldn't exactly be beyond childbearing years at that time. Most noblewomen actually do not marry in their mid-teens/have children in their mid-teens.

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Yet, despite for when ran by the disasterous Tytos, are they marrying individuals that are third in-line?  Joanna would have been aware of Tywin's objection when Tytos gave Genna to a Frey that wasn't a heir.  Why would she think he would be okay with marrying his eldest daughter so someone equally not a heir?

So far we have no indication that a Lannister women routinely married heirs, especially not heirs from prestigious families. I guess some heirs of Westerlands got the occasional Lannister bride, but most Lannister women may have been reserved for other Lannisters - either Lannisters of Lannisport or cadet branches of the Lannisters of Casterly Rock.

The Freys are upjumped nobodies in the eyes of the Lannisters. The Martells are not. Most notably, because the Lady of Casterly Rock - the woman allegedly ruling Lord Tywin - was friends with the Princess of Dorne. Different standards for different people. That's how those things work.

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10 hours ago, Mithras said:

There is no evidence for this idea and even if it was true, there is no place to reveal that information to the readers, unless GRRM starts another series on Tywin.

Furthermore, were Aerys and Tywin not friends at this point? From the little information we do have, this variable for influence is a). Logical and b). What wr have.

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59 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Elia could start to work with Jaime as soon as possible, they could even marry child Jaime to her, like Tommen-Margaery. Viserys II became a father at a very young age, too. Sure, they would have wait at least 4-5 years, but Elia wouldn't exactly be beyond childbearing years at that time. Most noblewomen actually do not marry in their mid-teens/have children in their mid-teens.

Tommen isn't currently fathering heirs on Margaery, instead they are having to wait until he is older.  The age gap between Margaery and Tommen is actually even smaller than that of Elia and Jaime.  When Jaime is 15/16 that would have Elia being around 25/26, while equally being sickly.  

She is as good of a match for Jaime as Tyrion was for her.

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2 hours ago, Minsc said:

Tommen isn't currently fathering heirs on Margaery, instead they are having to wait until he is older.  The age gap between Margaery and Tommen is actually even smaller than that of Elia and Jaime.  When Jaime is 15/16 that would have Elia being around 25/26, while equally being sickly.  

She is as good of a match for Jaime as Tyrion was for her.

Again, that's only the scenario where Elia is married to Jaime - which may not have been the plan.

But even if it was - so what? Jaime is still a boy in 273 AC, but wouldn't it be good if he were already married? Or betrothed, since the idea that they would have gone through with the marriage at that age isn't very likely. Elia survived childhood, so chances are she will live to have children. If she dies in childbirth, Jaime can remarry, and if they would have no children then they would have the same kind of problem many childless couples have.

If they married when Jaime was 13-14, Elia would be about ten years older, in her only twenties. That would be the same kind of marriage Maegor the Cruel got with Ceryse Hightower. But if they wanted to rush things, they could do that, too, as Tommen shows. But there isn't really a good reason to do this. They have a lot of time to have children.

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5 hours ago, Minsc said:

Yet, despite for when ran by the disasterous Tytos, are they marrying individuals that are third in-line?  Joanna would have been aware of Tywin's objection when Tytos gave Genna to a Frey that wasn't a heir.  Why would she think he would be okay with marrying his eldest daughter so someone equally not a heir?

 

House Frey is a vassal house. House Martell is not. Plus, it doesn't have to be Cersei/Oberyn. It can be Elia/Jaime. For the most part, ladies who marry major lords or princes are not heirs. 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

and if they would have no children then they would have the same kind of problem many childless couples have.

You don't want your heir to be a childless couple.

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If they married when Jaime was 13-14, Elia would be about ten years older, in her only twenties.

She is likely already going to be considered to have trouble with child birth based on her being sickly losing ideal child birthing years because Jaime is still to young to father children onto top isn't ideal

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Again, that's only the scenario where Elia is married to Jaime - which may not have been the plan.

Oberyn is still a poor choice for Tywin's eldest daugher when there is no reason to expect he would inherit anything.  I similarly doubt Ned would have betrothed Sansa to Loras.

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9 minutes ago, Minsc said:

You don't want your heir to be a childless couple.

Don't you? Hoster threw his daughter on an old lord who wasn't capable of fathering an heir on his previous wives. Stannis is married to his wife for fifteen years yet failed to produce an healthy male heir. Garlan Tyrell and his wife are so far without children, etc.

9 minutes ago, Minsc said:

She is likely already going to be considered to have trouble with child birth based on her being sickly losing ideal child birthing years because Jaime is still to young to father children onto top isn't ideal

Actually, a lot of the fertility issues/early deaths we get for highborn ladies involve women who get pregnant too early. This wouldn't be the case with Elia and Jaime. And the most fertile time for women is, unless I'm mistaken, late teens to early twenties. Jaime and Elia wouldn't start it all that late.

And while Elia was sickly, she was fertile and capable of carrying two children to term. Elia's health didn't affect her fertility unlike other women who had trouble conceiving/birthing children like Queen Rhaella or Queen Naerys or Lysa Tully.

9 minutes ago, Minsc said:

Oberyn is still a poor choice for Tywin's eldest daugher when there is no reason to expect he would inherit anything.  I similarly doubt Ned would have betrothed Sansa to Loras.

Ned promised Sansa a high lord when he dissolved the Joffrey betrothal. But I'm not holding my breath that he would have married her to a lord from the great houses. Lyanna Stark would have been the first Stark we know of to marry an actual great lord. And since you mention the Starks we do know some of the matches there, for instance, Edwyle's sister Jocelyn ending up with a younger son of the Royces of the lesser branch whose daughters had to marry Waynwoods, Corbrays and possibly Templetons - with no indication that any of those spouses was an heir or a lord. A similar thing happened with Lyarra's sister Branda who ended up with obscure Harrold Rogers.

But again - you fail to acknowedge that what you imagine the criteria for a Lannister-Martell match do not cover all eventualities.

We do have an in-universe characters indicating that such matches were planned by Joanna and the Princess. We also have textual evidence that Joanna may have other reasons to arrange such matches (especially since they seemed to have included sending one of her twins to Dorne when the Princess and her children left CR), namely the incestuous relationship of her children.

House Martell is prestigious enough for a Lannister of Casterly Rock. Tywin couldn't object on those grounds. And Sunspear is so far away from Casterly Rock that Jaime and Cersei would be separated for good if one of them were permanently moved to Sunspear and had to live there. If Joanna had arranged a betrothal for Cersei with one of the Lords of the West then she could have returned often enough for visits to CR, not to mention that Lord Jaime could have later commanded Cersei's husband to attend him at CR with his wife ... allowing them continue their affair.

While there is a chance that Oberyn may have lied there ... it is not that high. In fact, it all fits together pretty well.

But this entire thing has nothing to do with the topic of the thread.

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