Re: The Brotherhood without Banners (TWOW)

[jennyofnewstones]

I'm re-reading AFFC and i've been looking for threads on all of the Brotherhood + Stoneheart business. I have some things i've been thinking about during the re-read which have probably been exhausted in discussion already but i thought i'd make this topic anyway. What are your thoughts on the following?

• When did the divide (in which Edric Dayne presumably headed the Brotherhood of the Kingswood) occur? Because of Beric's death or after they realized the nature of Stoneheart's justice? Who joined Edric Dayne and why didn't others?
• Why did Beric resurrect Catelyn (because of the Lord of Light's will, his oath to Arya...)?
• Do you believe that the Inn at the Crossroads is intended to find Arya by giving orphans safe haven?
• A bit of a minor one but- who do you think was calling out for Arya, Gendry of Harwin? (as mentioned in her chapter)
• Do you believe the Red Wedding II theory?
• Will Brienne tell Gendry of his parentage? Will Jaime meet and recognize him?
• Who will kill Stoneheart, in your opinion?
• After Stoneheart inevitably redies, who will lead the Brotherhood or will the Brotherhood end? Will the two factions (Stoneheart's and Edric Dayne's) merge?
• What is the significance of Wenda the White Fawn, is she supposed to indicate something in terms of romanticizing outlaws or...?
• Do the Brotherhood believe that Arya married Ramsay (I know the timeline is off but George has some glitches with time in the books anyway)?

 

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, jennyofnewstones said:

When did the divide (in which Edric Dayne presumably headed the Brotherhood of the Kingswood) occur? Because of Beric's death or after they realized the nature of Stoneheart's justice? Who joined Edric Dayne and why didn't others?

Probably never happened. 

Berics death was sad but he died all the time.

Whats the nature of Stonehearts justice? Murder with a mock trial, sounds like Beric.

Neds household staff, like Harwin, wont leave Lady Stark. Hosters subjects, like Tom, wont leave Lady Tully. And Aryas friends like Gendry wont leave Cat.

Idk why Edric isnt with Cat during Briennes trial, hes probably on his way to bury his mentor. Hes probably not a rallying force to usurp Cat and her noose. The only way I see Stoneheart battling Edric is if the ghost of Ashara haunts the ghost of Catelyn into being cruel to Edric. But despite Cats ability to be generally cruel, this doesnt sound like her. Plus I feel like Thoros woulda mentioned this

2 hours ago, jennyofnewstones said:

Why did Beric resurrect Catelyn (because of the Lord of Light's will, his oath to Arya...)?

I think the promise he made to Arya was the reason

2 hours ago, jennyofnewstones said:

Do you believe that the Inn at the Crossroads is intended to find Arya by giving orphans safe haven?

I think Cat was generally looking out for the welfare of the riverlands, like Beric. But your theory makes good sense

2 hours ago, jennyofnewstones said:

A bit of a minor one but- who do you think was calling out for Arya, Gendry of Harwin? (as mentioned in her chapter)

Citation?

2 hours ago, jennyofnewstones said:

Do you believe the Red Wedding II theory?

Tom doing some terrorizing in Riverrun? 

2 hours ago, jennyofnewstones said:

Will Brienne tell Gendry of his parentage? Will Jaime meet and recognize him?

I dont think so

2 hours ago, jennyofnewstones said:

Who will kill Stoneheart, in your opinion?

. Is it too late to die of natural courses?

2 hours ago, jennyofnewstones said:

After Stoneheart inevitably redies, who will lead the Brotherhood or will the Brotherhood end? Will the two factions (Stoneheart's and Edric Dayne's) merge?

I cant imagine any one trying to fill her shoes

2 hours ago, jennyofnewstones said:

What is the significance of Wenda the White Fawn, is she supposed to indicate something in terms of romanticizing outlaws or...?

Yea, cool lady. I dont think her story has too much at play

2 hours ago, jennyofnewstones said:

Do the Brotherhood believe that Arya married Ramsay (I know the timeline is off but George has some glitches with time in the books anyway)?

How could they not? I assume Jaime and Brienne will tell her

[Mister Smikes]

3 hours ago, jennyofnewstones said:

I'm re-reading AFFC and i've been looking for threads on all of the Brotherhood + Stoneheart business. I have some things i've been thinking about during the re-read which have probably been exhausted in discussion already but i thought i'd make this topic anyway. What are your thoughts on the following?

Your reread is no doubt fresher then mine.  But I'll give my thoughts anyway.

3 hours ago, jennyofnewstones said:

• When did the divide (in which Edric Dayne presumably headed the Brotherhood of the Kingswood) occur? Because of Beric's death or after they realized the nature of Stoneheart's justice? Who joined Edric Dayne and why didn't others?

AFAIK, the only evidence for the divide is the appendix of TWOW.  Which I think should be taken as representing the situation at or around the beginning of AFFC. 

There are 2 groups.  The Second is defined by the relationship to Stoneheart; and is later confirmed to still be a defined group when we meet Stoneheart's band later in AFFC. 

The First is defined by their former allegiance to Beric (but not necessarily to each other).   I don't think we can assume that, after Beric's death, they have necessarily stayed together as a defined group.  Perhaps they did not.  However, the failure to include Gendry (who after all was a follower of Beric) perhaps is an argument against this interpretation.

Gendry is not listed in either group.

3 hours ago, jennyofnewstones said:

• Why did Beric resurrect Catelyn (because of the Lord of Light's will, his oath to Arya...)?

I'd say both.  GRRM in an SSM says red wights lose their humanity (or at least some of it) but are driven by their oaths.  I have this idea that an oath fulfilled by a red wight is twisted to diabolical ends by some dark demonic force.   But I can't prove this from the text.  It's just an idea I have from reading all the right kinds of horror tales.

3 hours ago, jennyofnewstones said:

• Do you believe that the Inn at the Crossroads is intended to find Arya by giving orphans safe haven?

I'd rather believe the idea is to help orphans.

3 hours ago, jennyofnewstones said:

• A bit of a minor one but- who do you think was calling out for Arya, Gendry o[r] Harwin? (as mentioned in her chapter)

Not sure what you mean.

3 hours ago, jennyofnewstones said:

• Do you believe the Red Wedding II theory?

Never heard of it.

3 hours ago, jennyofnewstones said:

• Will Brienne tell Gendry of his parentage? Will Jaime meet and recognize him?

My guess is no, and no.

3 hours ago, jennyofnewstones said:

• Who will kill Stoneheart, in your opinion?

My guess would be Arya, but I have no confidence in it.

3 hours ago, jennyofnewstones said:

• After Stoneheart inevitably redies, who will lead the Brotherhood or will the Brotherhood end? Will the two factions (Stoneheart's and Edric Dayne's) merge?

They will not merge.   What will become of either group after Stoneheart dies (if she dies) is too far ahead to be worth considering IMHO.  I do expect it to become clearer and clearer that Stonheart's group -- and/or its successor -- is evil and monstrous.

As it stands, I think GRRM has set up an ambiguity regarding the so-called BROTHERHOOD WITHOUT BANNERS.  We don't know if the name now refers to the one group, or to the other group, or to both groups.  I think GRRM is doing this deliberately for the purposes of confusing and ultimately surprising the reader.  Similarly, a number of curious parallels between Edric Dayne and Podrick Payne suggest that GRRM is setting them up to be confused with each other.  Finally, there are a number of curious parallels between Lem Lemoncloak, Brienne of Tarth, and Sandor Clegane.  The Brienne/Sandor parallels are particularly striking.  To further add to the confusion, the identify of "the Hound" no longer (necessarily) belongs to Sandor.

3 hours ago, jennyofnewstones said:

• What is the significance of Wenda the White Fawn, is she supposed to indicate something in terms of romanticizing outlaws or...?

Sorry, I got nothing.

3 hours ago, jennyofnewstones said:

• Do the Brotherhood believe that Arya married Ramsay (I know the timeline is off but George has some glitches with time in the books anyway)?

No thoughts, except that I don't think Stoneheart cares.  She is no longer human.  All that drives her are oaths of vengeance.

[Mister Smikes]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

I think Cat was generally looking out for the welfare of the riverlands, like Beric. 

Cat is dead.  Stoneheart is not Cat; is a monster; and has no interest in helping anyone.

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How could they not? I assume Jaime and Brienne will tell her

There is no basis for the fan assumption that Brienne is taking Jaime to Stoneheart.

It's as if they think this happened:

STONEHEART:  Either take the sword and kill the kingslayer, take the noose and tie up the kingslayer and bring him before me.  Sword or Noose.  Choose! Choose!

BRIENNE:  I can't choose.  I won't choose. 

STONEHEART:  Hang her!

BRIENNE:  NOOSE!  NOOSE!

[jennyofnewstones]

4 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Cat is dead.  Stoneheart is not Cat; is a monster; and has no interest in helping anyone.

 

Agree with this. I think it's likely a remnant of her love for her children may be left, or at the very least a protectiveness/possessiveness but I doubt she cares much about the good of the people... or ethics in general.

[Seams]

On 4/25/2021 at 9:29 AM, jennyofnewstones said:

• When did the divide (in which Edric Dayne presumably headed the Brotherhood of the Kingswood) occur? Because of Beric's death or after they realized the nature of Stoneheart's justice? Who joined Edric Dayne and why didn't others?
• Why did Beric resurrect Catelyn (because of the Lord of Light's will, his oath to Arya...)?
•  
• After Stoneheart inevitably redies, who will lead the Brotherhood or will the Brotherhood end? Will the two factions (Stoneheart's and Edric Dayne's) merge?

The Brotherhood without Banners was created by Ned Stark. Ned was acting as Hand of the King so he chose Ser Beric to lead the group and gave them their orders to protect the Riverlands from Lannister marauders led by Gregor Clegane.

In the land of literary analysis, the origin of the group with Ned explains why Ser Beric kissed Catelyn: he was a symbolic Ned Stark, kissing Ned's wife and willing her back to life. 

The Ned connection may also (partly) explain the Edric Dayne aspect of the group: Ned Stark is strongly associated with the mysterious Dayne clan. Some think that Ashara was Ned's true love and possibly even the mother of Jon Snow. Ned probably killed Ser Arthur Dayne, had possession of his special sword and returned that sword to House Dayne.

Edric Dayne claims to be a "milk brother" of Jon Snow, having nursed at the breast of Wylla. Ned Stark told Robert Baratheon that someone named Wylla was the mother of his bastard. The name "Edric" is within the "Eddard" group of (possibly) related names and Edric's nickname is Ned.

I think the message from all the Dayne / Ned juxtaposition is that there is an aspect of Ned Stark that is embodied by House Dayne. The planned unification of House Dayne (through Allyria) and House Dondarrion (through Ser Beric) would have been like the unification of House Stark with House Barratheon (planned but never realized through the marriage of Lyanna Stark and Robert Barratheon). 

Just to complicate things, Dondarrion is also an embodiment of King Robert: he serves the king, he is the Lightning Lord while Robert was the Storm Lord, Dondarrion sounds like Durrandon, the name of the noble House taken over by House Baratheon. So we saw a unification of Stark and Baratheon in the being of Ser Beric but the unity diminished with each death and was finally allowed to die. 

Long story short: the universe seems to be working to bring together the forces or qualities represented by Houses Dayne, Stark and Baratheon (and Dondarrion, to the extent that it exists in its own right and not just as a symbol of other houses). Why? That I don't know. Except that a lot of the literary clues in ASOIAF seem to be about achieving a balance that has been missing: in the seasons, in north vs. south, in Blackfyre vs. Targaryen, in Beyond the Wall vs. Kneelers, etc. If we can pin down a better idea of the qualities embodied by the Houses, maybe we can figure out why a "marriage" of these Houses is a desirable thing. 

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• Do you believe that the Inn at the Crossroads is intended to find Arya by giving orphans safe haven?

The inn at the crossroads is a magical place and it is strongly associated with Catelyn who took Tyrion hostage there. Also, because it is located in the Riverlands, it is in Tully territory. I don't think turning it into an orphanage is intended to help find Arya, necessarily. I think the band of orphans at the inn is symbolic of the Brotherhood without Banners: the children represent for Willow (symbolic Arya) the same kind of army that the BwB represents for Lady Stoneheart. And, by the way, the same kind of army as Selyse Florent's Queen's Men. 

 

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• Do you believe the Red Wedding II theory?

If you mean the theory that there will be another wedding feast with a slaughter then, yes, I do expect it. Based on the clues, I think it will occur at Riverrun so it is probably going to occur at the feast for Daven Lannister and his Frey "stoat" bride. Instead of violence with swords, the slaughter may take the form of a flood. 

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• Will Brienne tell Gendry of his parentage? Will Jaime meet and recognize him?

Thoros of Myr was originally sent to Westeros to try to convert King Robert to R'hllor. That goal was not achieved but Gendry has converted to follow the Red God. There is some heavy symbolism around the Lord of Light ( = R'hllor), the Lighting Lord ( = Ser Beric, who knighted Gendry) and Gendry's work in the forge (think of the thunder and lightning hammered out by Hephaestus in classical mythology). I don't know whether Gendry will care about his paternity as he seems to be turning into a demigod in his own right. 

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• Who will kill Stoneheart, in your opinion?

Clues about the fate of Lady Stoneheart have come from the Alyssa's Tears symbolism at the Eyrie (the statue of Alyssa falls over and breaks during the duel between Bronn and Vardis Egen), Lady Darklyn (hacked to pieces after the Defiance of Duskendale) and the death of Lysa Arryn (pushed off a mountain). I think there will be further clues about Lady Stoneheart's fate in the fate of Selyse Florent (and possibly Shireen, who is also made of stone, like Lady Stoneheart) and of Melisandre.

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• What is the significance of Wenda the White Fawn, is she supposed to indicate something in terms of romanticizing outlaws or...?

The fawn symbolism may go back to the House Baratheon symbolism I mentioned earlier as House Baratheon is associated with the crowned stag. The fawn was used in an interaction between Tommen and Joffrey: Tommen had a pet fawn that Joffrey had killed to make a jerkin (a kind of vest) for himself. Tommen wanted to raise the fawn as a pet; Joffrey pulled a Bolton move and had the fawn skinned so he could wear the skin. 

We know that Wenda branded her fawn mark on the hind end of a Frey who was subsequently put to death by Lady Stoneheart. This could show that Wenda is yet another symbolic representative of Lady Stoneheart. 

Through wordplay, I think "deer" and "reed" are linked symbols. So we might learn more about Wenda by studying Meera Reed, another woman warrior in ASOIAF. 

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• Do the Brotherhood believe that Arya married Ramsay (I know the timeline is off but George has some glitches with time in the books anyway)?

I doubt they are worried about Arya. They know that Arya is a badass like Lyanna, Willow and Lady Stoneheart. (And like the direwolf Nymeria.) If they think about her at all, they probably wonder when they will see her again.

[Mister Smikes]

6 minutes ago, jennyofnewstones said:

Agree with this. I think it's likely a remnant of her love for her children may be left, or at the very least a protectiveness/possessiveness but I doubt she cares much about the good of the people... or ethics in general.

I'm inclined to question even the bolded part.  Stoneheart had an opportunity to interrogate Brienne regarding what Brienne knew about Arya and Sansa.  She showed no interest whatsoever.  I have a suspicion that if Stoneheart ever gets her hands upon Arya or Sansa she will try to hang them as traitors -- Arya for allegedly marrying Bolton, and Sansa for allegedly marrying Tyrion.  I think that, after the relatively mild horror of Un-Beric, the horror of how twisted these "fire wights" truly are will keep escalating, and we have yet to see its full extent.

In some older tales, when one slays a revenant, the demon inhabiting the corpse is driven away, and the spirit of the original person is set free.

[Mister Smikes]

44 minutes ago, Seams said:

The Brotherhood without Banners was created by Ned Stark. Ned was acting as Hand of the King so he chose Ser Beric to lead the group and gave them their orders to protect the Riverlands from Lannister marauders led by Gregor Clegane.

Note that Ser Beric's orders intersect somewhat with the oath of knight (and the ideal of a True Knight) to defend the weak.

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In the land of literary analysis, the origin of the group with Ned explains why Ser Beric kissed Catelyn: he was a symbolic Ned Stark, kissing Ned's wife and willing her back to life. 

I have a darker suspicion.  GRRM suggested in an SSM that fire wights are driven by their oaths.  But there is only so far that the benevolent oaths of Beric Dondarion could be twisted by the demonic death-spirit inhabiting him.  Catelyn, who died swearing an oath to take innocent blood in the name of vengeance, was a far more usable vessel.  

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The Ned connection may also (partly) explain the Edric Dayne aspect of the group: Ned Stark is strongly associated with the mysterious Dayne clan.

I think it is more to the point to say that Edric is the lord with the authority to bestow Dawn on a worthy knight, in accordance with the ideals of "True Knight".  With the final death of Beric, Allyria is now free to bestow her hand on such a worthy knight, making him a "knight of House Dayne" (by marriage or betrothal).  Edric is connected to the higher ideals that the Brotherhood without Banners, in origin, potentially and ideally represented.  The troubles in the Riverlands and elsewhere are not over, and I'm sure there will be plenty of opportunity to come for wandering heroes to defend smallfolk and maidens from monsters of all sorts.

 

[Mister Smikes]

Stoneheart's Band:

(1) ASOS Epilogue:  Merrit sees between 12 and 20, including Stoneheart (the only woman), Tom O'Sevens, Lem, One-Eyed Jack, old men and beardless boys.

(2) AFFC Appendix:  Stoneheart, Lem, One-Eyed Jack, Tom O'Sevens, Thoros, Harwin, Likely Luke, Notch, Mudge, Beardless Dick  (10 listed).

(3) Brienne's AFFC Encounter:  Lem, One-Eyed Jack, Thoros, Gendry, Jeyne Heddle, Stoneheart,

Looking over the order of presentation, I am now guessing the only reason Gendry and Jeyne Heddle are not identified as part of Stoneheart's band in the AFFC appendix is is because we are not supposed to know that yet when Brienne, Pod, Hyle and Meribald come to the Crossroads Inn.

By the same logic, the status of Edric Dayne, the Mad Huntsman, Greenbeard, Anguy, Merrit O' Moontown, Watty the Miller, Swampy Meg, and Jon O'Nutten are undetermined.   They may or may not still be associates of Stoneheart.  They may or may not be together as a distinct group.  The conclusions drawn by the Wiki of Ice & Fire should be taken with a grain of salt.

[Rondo]

Lady Stoneheart will eventually go to rest.  Arya can inherit the leadership from her mother but justice is not really her thing.  She's confused revenge with justice.

[Seams]

21 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

I have a darker suspicion.  GRRM suggested in an SSM that fire wights are driven by their oaths.  But there is only so far that the benevolent oaths of Beric Dondarion could be twisted by the demonic death-spirit inhabiting him.  Catelyn, who died swearing an oath to take innocent blood in the name of vengeance, was a far more usable vessel.  

I am not an expert on the SSMs, but I don't think GRRM makes a strong distinction between the benevolent and the demonic. I think it's all a matter of perspective and prejudice: if you are a Lannister, you think Gregor Clegane is a hero. The small folk suffer whether it is lions or wolves taking their crops and raping their family members. Fire and ice are opposites but that doesn't mean that the world should eradicate one and exalt the other. 

On a related note, I don't know that there is such a thing as innocent blood in GRRM's world. Catelyn tried to trade Robb's safety for the safety of Jinglebell but Lord Walder rejected the deal:

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Ser Ryman and Black Walder were circling round her back, but Catelyn did not care. They could do as they wished with her; imprison her, rape her, kill her, it made no matter. She had lived too long, and Ned was waiting. It was Robb she feared for. "On my honor as a Tully," she told Lord Walder, "on my honor as a Stark, I will trade your boy's life for Robb's. A son for a son." Her hand shook so badly she was ringing Jinglebell's head.

Boom, the drum sounded, boom doom boom doom. The old man's lips went in and out. The knife trembled in Catelyn's hand, slippery with sweat. "A son for a son, heh," he repeated. "But that's a grandson . . . and he never was much use."

A man in dark armor and a pale pink cloak spotted with blood stepped up to Robb. "Jaime Lannister sends his regards." He thrust his longsword through her son's heart, and twisted.

Robb had broken his word, but Catelyn kept hers. She tugged hard on Aegon's hair and sawed at his neck until the blade grated on bone. Blood ran hot over her fingers. His little bells were ringing, ringing, ringing, and the drum went boom doom boom.

Finally someone took the knife away from her. The tears burned like vinegar as they ran down her cheeks. Ten fierce ravens were raking her face with sharp talons and tearing off strips of flesh, leaving deep furrows that ran red with blood. She could taste it on her lips.

It hurts so much, she thought. Our children, Ned, all our sweet babes. Rickon, Bran, Arya, Sansa, Robb . . . Robb . . . please, Ned, please, make it stop, make it stop hurting . . . The white tears and the red ones ran together until her face was torn and tattered, the face that Ned had loved. Catelyn Stark raised her hands and watched the blood run down her long fingers, over her wrists, beneath the sleeves of her gown. Slow red worms crawled along her arms and under her clothes. It tickles. That made her laugh until she screamed. "Mad," someone said, "she's lost her wits," and someone else said, "Make an end," and a hand grabbed her scalp just as she'd done with Jinglebell, and she thought, No, don't, don't cut my hair, Ned loves my hair. Then the steel was at her throat, and its bite was red and cold.

So this was a broken promise followed by a treacherous payback. Instead of saving two sons, both sons died. GRRM's point is that both Lord Walder and Catelyn were violent and that violence does not solve problems. In fact, it seems to beget more violence. (I think we get a related message from Arya's transformation into an assassin. The reader is actually cheering on a child who commits murder. She breaks the rules of the assassins' guild, taking out people for personal reasons instead of for pay, but we don't hold it against her. And yet it was Arya who freed Rorge and Biter - as well as the mysterious Jaqen - who turn out to be two of the most sickeningly violent characters in the series. The author's point may be to compare Lady Stoneheart's vengeance with Arya's "prayer" for the death of her enemies and to tell us that these characters are similar and that their violence leads to bloodshed and horror.) 

Drawing again on the world of literary analysis, I would say that Catelyn's oath is about Lord Walder's heirs, just as Bolton's attack on Robb  (and Ser Ryman and Black Walder's cutting of her throat) is about Catelyn's heirs. The author's hint to the reader comes through the wordplay emphasis on hair and heirs in both killings; Catelyn's last conscious thought is about preserving her hair. 

21 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

I think it is more to the point to say that Edric is the lord with the authority to bestow Dawn on a worthy knight, in accordance with the ideals of "True Knight".  With the final death of Beric, Allyria is now free to bestow her hand on such a worthy knight, making him a "knight of House Dayne" (by marriage or betrothal).  Edric is connected to the higher ideals that the Brotherhood without Banners, in origin, potentially and ideally represented.  The troubles in the Riverlands and elsewhere are not over, and I'm sure there will be plenty of opportunity to come for wandering heroes to defend smallfolk and maidens from monsters of all sorts.

It's interesting, isn't it, that Jaime Lannister was knighted by Ser Arthur Dayne. I can't think of another character raised to knighthood by Ser Arthur and (in ASOIAF) that makes Jaime a sort of heir to Arthur Dayne.

But my earlier post noted the strong connection between Ned and House Dayne. Can Jaime and Ned both be symbolic Daynes? Hmm. Interesting to recall that Jaime pushed Bran out of a window of the old keep and Ashara Dayne fell (or jumped) from a high tower. Arthur also died in the company of a Hightower, so to speak. 

Another odd similarity between Ned and Jaime is that both were imprisoned with buckets of shit. Jaime knocked his over during a visit with Catelyn and noted that he had shit for honor. (For what it's worth, Ser Ilyn also lived in a dungeon with a bucket of shit. He was the last known person to use the sword Ice.)

Ironically, Jaime also was given part of Ned's sword, Ice, which is something Robb wanted delivered to Riverrun as part of a potential treaty with the Lannisters. That sword was renamed "Oathkeeper" by Jaime and Brienne, who now carries the sword. Of course, Lady Stoneheart thinks that Jaime and Brienne have broken their oaths to Catelyn even though most readers would say that they continue to honor those oaths. 

I guess the point of these meandering thoughts is that the symbols show a link between Jaime and Ned. Catelyn set Jaime free when she released him from Riverrun in an attempt to secure the safe release of Sansa (who has Catelyn's hair). This act by Catelyn to take a risk on peacemaking is what will triumph, I suspect. Although her subsequent turn to violence will lead to the demise of Lady Stoneheart, the freeing of Jaime will eventually lead to the end of the wars and the return of peace and summer in Westeros.

[Mister Smikes]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

I am not an expert on the SSMs, but I don't think GRRM makes a strong distinction between the benevolent and the demonic.

No, not in that quote.  I cited it only for what I cited.

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I think it's all a matter of perspective and prejudice: if you are a Lannister, you think Gregor Clegane is a hero.

Nobody thinks Gregor is a hero.    Not even you.

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The small folk suffer whether it is lions or wolves taking their crops and raping their family members.

No, it does not necessarily matter what SIDE you are on.  However, It does not follow that morality is bunk and there is no difference between Ser Bonifer & his men, and Ser Gregor & his men.  Individuals still make moral choices.

And in Ser Beric's case, his original mission to defend the Riverlands (and its smallfolk) from the ravages of Ser Gregor was a noble one; at least in theory reconcilable with the ideal that the True Knight defends the weak.

Those ideals have clearly been corrupted by vengeance and war-hate.  However, that does not prove that the ideals are bunk.  And, as has already been mentioned in this thread, it is possible that a handful of people, including the Lord of Starfall who will some day appoint the next Sword of the Morning, have abandoned Stoneheart's hell band.  It may be that the ideal of the True Knight is still out there.

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Fire and ice are opposites but that doesn't mean that the world should eradicate one and exalt the other. 

Sure.  But who are you arguing against?  I never suggested this is about the nice fire zombies against the mean ice zombies. I think they are both evil.  

The ice zombies and the fire zombies may be two different arms of the many-faced hell god of death.  In the Norse apocalypse of Ragnarok, the fire demons and the ice demons are on the same team.   In The Armageddon Rag, a satanic entity tries to trick the protagonist into committing murder, supposedly to prevent an apocalypse, but in fact to promote it.

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On a related note, I don't know that there is such a thing as innocent blood in GRRM's world.

Are you shrugging at murder? 

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Catelyn tried to trade Robb's safety for the safety of Jinglebell but Lord Walder rejected the deal:

I'm not trying to rag on Cat for what she did in the throes of her agony.  My whole point is that UnCat is not Cat.  Cat was a human being, and UnCat is a monster.

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The author's hint to the reader comes through the wordplay emphasis on hair and heirs in both killings; Catelyn's last conscious thought is about preserving her hair. 

I don't buy that at all.  She thinks of her hair in the context of thinking of Ned and wanting to join Ned.  Which suggests, to me, she does not want to be UnCat.  She'd rather be dead, and with Ned.

 

[Frey family reunion]

On 4/25/2021 at 8:29 AM, jennyofnewstones said:

Why did Beric resurrect Catelyn (because of the Lord of Light's will, his oath to Arya...)?

This is an interesting question.  Thoros' account of what happened, made it seem like Beric was tired of the endless cycle of death and rebith and believed that the only way to end his existence for good was to pass his "gift" off to someone else.

The question remains, why did he choose Cat?  

I assume that Beric had other members of his brotherhood that died, yet he never passed on his gift to them.  Or if he did it was apparently unsuccessful.  

Which brings up another question.  Why was Beric brought back?  Why was Cat brought back?  Presumably Thoros had ample opportunites to use his ceremonial last rites to other members of the Brotherhood but none of them returned.  

The one common denominator with Beric and Cat (other than their reddish hair) is that both had similar circumstances behind their initial deaths.  Beric was stabbed and then fell into a body of water.  Cat's throat was cut, then she was dropped into a river.  

So is there something about this sequence that allowed them to return?

Is there a connection to the "kiss of life" ritual that was performed among the Ironborn?  There needs to be a drowning first?  Does this tie into the fire aspect of the Grey King from the Iron Islands?

[Hugorfonics]

18 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Stoneheart's Band:

(1) ASOS Epilogue:  Merrit sees between 12 and 20, including Stoneheart (the only woman), Tom O'Sevens, Lem, One-Eyed Jack, old men and beardless boys.

(2) AFFC Appendix:  Stoneheart, Lem, One-Eyed Jack, Tom O'Sevens, Thoros, Harwin, Likely Luke, Notch, Mudge, Beardless Dick  (10 listed).

(3) Brienne's AFFC Encounter:  Lem, One-Eyed Jack, Thoros, Gendry, Jeyne Heddle, Stoneheart,

Looking over the order of presentation, I am now guessing the only reason Gendry and Jeyne Heddle are not identified as part of Stoneheart's band in the AFFC appendix is is because we are not supposed to know that yet when Brienne, Pod, Hyle and Meribald come to the Crossroads Inn.

By the same logic, the status of Edric Dayne, the Mad Huntsman, Greenbeard, Anguy, Merrit O' Moontown, Watty the Miller, Swampy Meg, and Jon O'Nutten are undetermined.   They may or may not still be associates of Stoneheart.  They may or may not be together as a distinct group.  The conclusions drawn by the Wiki of Ice & Fire should be taken with a grain of salt.

Word. Huntsman and Greenbeard are supplying the Arbor, theres a good chance they arent aware of Cats leadership or Berics final death

On 4/25/2021 at 1:41 PM, Mister Smikes said:

Cat is dead.  Stoneheart is not Cat; is a monster

Monsters are beings too. Stoneheart shares qualities with a wight, this does not make her a duck. Call Beric a monster, but he fought the good fight. Coldhands calls himself a monster, Brans monster, but they are not the enemy.

Lady Catelyn is very much breathing and while the Riverland forests ornament themselves in dangling Freys, Cat remains the core character we knew so well for over 1/2 of asoiaf. 

Do I deny her vicious appearance? Nah. Deny that jolly TomOseven is about to get into some serious breach of hospitality and mass murder? Nu-uh. Happy that Ser Lem is wearing Rorges Hounds Helm? Why the fuck shouldnt I be? The night is dark and full of terror, cool. Let all men cursed in the eyes of god and the cruel lion thieves they serve tremble. Lady Stark is back, and winter is coming.

On 4/25/2021 at 1:41 PM, Mister Smikes said:

has no interest in helping anyone.

Where do you get this from? We see the orphanage, we hear tales of villages lighting fires. The brotherhood has not abandoned its people, her people. 

On 4/25/2021 at 1:41 PM, Mister Smikes said:

There is no basis for the fan assumption that Brienne is taking Jaime to Stoneheart.

It's as if they think this happened

Huh? Noose means die, sword means Jaime. We see Brienne, post Biter, lure Jaime away from his men, and then we see hes been missing from his men for a while from Cerseis pov. 

Theres clearly a basis for assumption

On 4/25/2021 at 2:04 PM, Mister Smikes said:

I have a suspicion that if Stoneheart ever gets her hands upon Arya or Sansa she will try to hang them as traitors -- Arya for allegedly marrying Bolton, and Sansa for allegedly marrying Tyrion.

Thats hysterical

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

Nobody thinks Gregor is a hero.    Not even you.

Ser Gregor won the Riverlands, took Harrenhall twice. Raced to court to win as champion to the murdered king. Passed away through craven dornish poison, and is now rising from the underworld to once again champion the cause of the crown.

Obviously the Mountain sucks, that doesnt mean hes seen as a monster from Lannisters smallfolks perspective

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

No, it does not necessarily matter what SIDE you are on.  However, It does not follow that morality is bunk and there is no difference between Ser Bonifer & his men, and Ser Gregor & his men. 

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"Take the whore as well," Ser Bonifer urged. "You know the one. The girl from the dungeons."

"Pia." The last time he had been here, Qyburn had sent the girl to his bed, thinking that would please him. But the Pia they had brought up from the dungeons was a different creature from the sweet, simple, giggly creature who'd crawled beneath his blankets. She had made the mistake of speaking when Ser Gregor wanted quiet, so the Mountain had smashed her teeth to splinters with a mailed fist and broken her pretty little nose as well. He would have done worse, no doubt, if Cersei had not called him down to King's Landing to face the Red Viper's spear. Jaime would not mourn him. "Pia was born in this castle," he told Ser Bonifer. "It is the only home she has ever known."

"She is a font of corruption," said Ser Bonifer. "I won't have her near my men, flaunting her . . . parts."

Charming. Yes Bonifer is better better then Gregor, this does not make him close to anything acceptable

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

And in Ser Beric's case, his original mission to defend the Riverlands (and its smallfolk) from the ravages of Ser Gregor was a noble one; at least in theory reconcilable with the ideal that the True Knight defends the weak.

Lets not pretend though that like Stoneheart, Beric was nothing less then a murderer and thief. Sandor saw that clear enough when they accused him of all immeasurable crimes and continued in the mock trial on the word of Arya and in direct contradiction to the word of their king Robert.

[Mister Smikes]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Cat remains the core character we knew so well for over 1/2 of asoiaf. 

I disagree.  Cat would not have hanged a child.  If Cat's spirit is within that corpse, it is trapped, and horrified by what the shadow controlling her does.  It is like in Brienne's death dream where she is following the man she loves through a wood, and he turns, and a shadow, striking apparently from Brienne's direction, lays open his throat.  This to some extent echoes the death of Renly, but also foreshadows the death of Jaime.

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Happy that Ser Lem is wearing Rorges Hounds Helm? Why the fuck shouldnt I be?

No reason.  The Hound was a monster, and Lem is a monster.  Sandor, however, is no longer the Hound.  That is his redemption. 

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Where do you get this from?

We see her order a child hanged.  She has no interest in interrogating Brienne about Sansa and Arya.

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We see the orphanage,

LOL.  You are confusing Jeyne Heddle with Lady Stoneheart.  That's an odd mistake.  I never said Jeyne Heddle was not still human.

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we hear tales of villages lighting fires.  The brotherhood has not abandoned its people, her people. 

I think you're going to have to elaborate on that argument.  Because going by the text, it seems pretty clear that Lady Stoneheart only cares about one thing -- hanging Freys and Lannisters, and feeding the crows.

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Huh? Noose means die, sword means Jaime.

"Sword" means "Take the Sword and Kill the Kingslayer".  It does not mean "Take the Rope and Tie Up the Kingslayer and Bring Him to Me".

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We see Brienne, post Biter, lure Jaime away from his men, and then we see hes been missing from his men for a while from Cerseis pov. 

Theres clearly a basis for assumption

Yup.  Jaime only expected a day's ride.  And now he's been missing for weeks.  Whatever happened, we missed it.  But it sure as hell looks like Brienne took the sword and killed the kingslayer.

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Ser Gregor won the Riverlands, took Harrenhall twice. Raced to court to win as champion to the murdered king. Passed away through craven dornish poison, and is now rising from the underworld to once again champion the cause of the crown.

That guy is now called Robert Strong.  Because the name of Gregor is not a good one.  

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Obviously the Mountain sucks, that doesnt mean hes seen as a monster from Lannisters smallfolks perspective

Yes, the Mountain sucks.  Obviously.  I'm not aware of any evidence that the Lannister smallfolk mistakenly believe he does not suck.  But if they do, they are wrong.   Obviously.

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Lets not pretend though that like Stoneheart, Beric was nothing less then a murderer and thief. Sandor saw that clear enough when they accused him of all immeasurable crimes and continued in the mock trial on the word of Arya and in direct contradiction to the word of their king Robert.

Well, for starters, that was not Beric.  That was Un-Beric, the Shadow-Thing.  Second, you are assuming that Sandor's moral nihilism represents the POV of the author.  I don't think it does, even if his cynicism about the Brotherhood (already on the road to corruption) is partially correct.  And Sandor was in fact guilty of the murder of Micah, as he later confessed.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

Cat would not have hanged a child

Her husband had doubts

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Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

 

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

She has no interest in interrogating Brienne about Sansa and Arya

Brienne looks like she betrayed Cat. And is clueless on the whereabouts of her daughters.

Tom pressed Frey into the whereabouts of Sandor and Arya so she is looking for him

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

LOL.  You are confusing Jeyne Heddle with Lady Stoneheart.  That's an odd mistake.  I never said Jeyne Heddle was not still human.

Jeynes a kid, thays why she lives in an orphanage

Like, Lem is supposed to watch over it... On a 12 year olds orders? Not you know, his boss... Catelyn?

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

Because going by the text, it seems pretty clear that Lady Stoneheart only cares about one thing -- hanging Freys and Lannisters, and feeding the crows.

What text?

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

But it sure as hell looks like Brienne took the sword and killed the kingslayer.

Jaimes not gonna die over this

 

[Seams]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

This is an interesting question.  Thoros' account of what happened, made it seem like Beric was tired of the endless cycle of death and rebith and believed that the only way to end his existence for good was to pass his "gift" off to someone else.

The question remains, why did he choose Cat?  

I assume that Beric had other members of his brotherhood that died, yet he never passed on his gift to them.  Or if he did it was apparently unsuccessful.  

Which brings up another question.  Why was Beric brought back?  Why was Cat brought back?  Presumably Thoros had ample opportunites to use his ceremonial last rites to other members of the Brotherhood but none of them returned.  

The one common denominator with Beric and Cat (other than their reddish hair) is that both had similar circumstances behind their initial deaths.  Beric was stabbed and then fell into a body of water.  Cat's throat was cut, then she was dropped into a river.  

So is there something about this sequence that allowed them to return?

Is there a connection to the "kiss of life" ritual that was performed among the Ironborn?  There needs to be a drowning first?  Does this tie into the fire aspect of the Grey King from the Iron Islands?

You are right on the money, in my opinion. Aside from Ser Beric's symbolic Ned Stark role, I think he chose Cat because she was able to receive the kiss. She had been pulled out of the river and there is a "What's dead can never die" rule for drowning. 

Recall, too, that Thoros of Myr was the first over the wall at Pyke (along with Ser Jorah) during the Greyjoy Rebellion. We know that the religion in the Iron Islands involves reviving dead (drowned) guys and I suspect that Thoros and Jorah somehow picked up some of that magic when they scaled the wall at Pyke - maybe they took the magic that had been in Theon's brothers, Rodrik and Maron, who died after the collapsing wall fell on them. I think it is no coincidence that Ser Jorah is present when Dany survives to walk out of the ashes of Khal Drogo's funeral pyre.

Here are some hints about why Thoros is able to revive Beric (from the wiki):

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As Lord Beric Dondarrion's squire, Edric is part of the force sent by Eddard to the riverlands to apprehend Ser Gregor Clegane. After the force is ambushed in the battle at the Mummer's Ford, Edric pulls the dying Beric out of the river and stands over the body while the battle rages around them.

After Beric is killed in the duel, Thoros of Myr has Ned help him with Beric's body before he revives him with the last kiss. Ned fights alongside Beric during the battle at the burning septry.

Compare that to The Sworn Sword:

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"What not?" The maester snorted. "A broken ankle, a sprained knee, a broken collarbone, bruising . . . your upper torso is largely green and yellow and your right arm is a purply black. I thought your skull was cracked as well, but it appears not. There is that gash in your face, ser. You will have a scar, I fear.

Oh, and you had drowned by the time we pulled you from the water."

"Drowned?" said Dunk.

"I never suspected that one man could swallow so much water, not even a man as large as you, ser.

Count yourself fortunate that I am ironborn. The priests of the Drowned God know how to drown a man and bring him back, and I have made a study of their beliefs and customs."

I drowned. Dunk tried to sit again, but the strength was not in him. I drowned in water that did not even come up to my neck. He laughed, then groaned in pain. "Ser Lucas?"

"Dead. Did you doubt it?"

No. Dunk doubted many things, but not that. He remembered how the strength had gone out of the Longinch's limbs, all at once. "Egg," he got out. "I want Egg."

"Hunger is a good sign," the maester said, "but it is sleep you need just now, not food."

Dunk shook his head, and regretted it at once. "Egg is my squire . . ."

"Is he? A brave lad, and stronger than he looks. He was the one to pull you from the stream. He helped us get that armor off you, too, and rode with you in the wayn when we brought you here. He would not sleep himself, but sat by your side with your sword across his lap, in case someone tried to do you harm.

Maester Cerrick is Ironborn, which I always found funny. But the larger point is the kid. Edric for Ser Beric and Egg for Dunk. The kiss doesn't work unless the kid is present. 

The scenario is also very similar to Pod saving Tyrion from Ser Mandon Moore at the Blackwater. 

We probably need a thread to discuss people who "died" in rivers and whether they are still alive or are reborn in some way. Rhaegar? Everyone at the Red Wedding? Everyone in the Rains of Castamere? Does the necessary "river death" explain why Littlefinger refused to concede in his duel with Brandon Stark until Brandon stepped in the river?

[Mister Smikes]

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Her husband had doubts

Not about this situation.  UnCat faces no moral dilemma.  She just murders a child.

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Brienne looks like she betrayed Cat.

Not really.  It was Catelyn who chose to release Jaime.  Of course if UnCat ever got hold of that Catelyn traitor, she'd probably hang her too.

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And is clueless on the whereabouts of her daughters.

She can't know that unless she asks.

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Tom pressed Frey into the whereabouts of Sandor and Arya so she is looking for him

Or Tom is.  But maybe she wants to hang them both.

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Jeynes a kid, thays why she lives in an orphanage

Jeyne is 18, she's the innkeeper, and she lives at the inn because because she is owner of the inn and the daughter of Masha Heddle, the former owner.  Taking in orphans was her idea.  When Gendry tries to order off Meribald & Company, she overrides him, because they have food for the little ones.

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Like, Lem is supposed to watch over it...

He's not doing a good job.  It's not like their lives mean anything to him (or to UnCat).   He's not sorry afterwards.  

But UnCat's BwB are using it as a base, and there's not much Jeyne Heddle can do about it.  With Rorge's troop about, it may even seem better than the alternative, at least for now.

Sure, some member of the band, like maybe Thoros or Jeyne Heddle or Gendry blame Lem for not protecting human lives at the inn.  UnCat is not one of them, and UnCat is the boss.

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On a 12 year olds orders? Not you know, his boss... Catelyn?

I did not see UnCat punish Lem for leaving the children unguarded.  I did not see UnCat thank Brienne for saving all their lives.  Thoros and Jeyne and maybe some others care about that.  Not UnCat.

THOROS:  "If not for you, only corpses might have remained at the inn by the time Lem and his men got back."

Thoros knows this.  Jeyne Heddle knows it too.  But Thoros and Jeyne Heddle both seem to take for granted that Stoneheart will not care.

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What text?

THOROS:  "I do not doubt that kindness and mercy and forgiveness can still be found somewhere in the Seven Kingdoms, but do not look for them here."

THOROS:  "Justice is what we were about when Ser Beric led us, or so we told ourselves."

LEM:  "She wants to feed the crows, like they did at the Red Wedding. Freys and Boltons, aye. We'll give her those, as many as she likes. All she asks from you is Jaime Lannister."

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Jaimes not gonna die over this

He's already dead IMHO.  His POV has ceased.  But he'll be back, of course, in the same limited sense that Carelyn and Brienne are back -- as a monster.

[Mister Smikes]

4 hours ago, Seams said:

The scenario is also very similar to Pod saving Tyrion from Ser Mandon Moore at the Blackwater. 

Speaking of parallels, this might be a good place to list the curious parallels between Edric Dayne and Podrick Payne?

(1) Each have suspiciously similar names; (2) Each is about 12 years old; (3) Each is very shy; (4) Each has lost his father (and possibly his mother); (5) Each has served as squire for a Lord; (6) Each has loyally stood by his Lord, in a riverside battle involving fiery missiles; (7) Each has saved his injured Lord, by pulling him from a river; (8) Podrick knows Dornish heraldry, and so (presumably) does Edric; (9) Each has lost the lord he squired for; (10) Each was last seen in the Riverlands, with the Brotherhood Without Banners; (11) The whereabouts of both are currently unknown; (12) each is associated, directly or indirectly, with a coat of arms that includes a shooting star against a purple backdrop.

Some of the similarities are shallow, like a pun.  Or perhaps like red herring used to spread confusion among readers, as if GRRM is hoping a clue or dropped comment will cause one character to be mistaken for another.

[Seams]

On 4/26/2021 at 9:49 PM, Mister Smikes said:

Speaking of parallels, this might be a good place to list the curious parallels between Edric Dayne and Podrick Payne?

Or you could join this thread already in progress. 

 

On 4/26/2021 at 9:49 PM, Mister Smikes said:

as if GRRM is hoping a clue or dropped comment will cause one character to be mistaken for another.

 

On 4/26/2021 at 2:16 PM, Mister Smikes said:

Nobody thinks [that] ...    Not even you.