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What can maege and Galbart do to enforce robb's will?


divica

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Any attempt to make Jon Robb's heir or King in the North is going to founder on the rock of Jon's membership in the Nights Watch.   The Nights Watch has never released anyone from his vows.  If Robb made Jon his heir with that expectation then he was engaging in wishful thinking, as is anyone trying to put that into effect.  With Robb it is understandable.  Northern lords should, and probably do, know better.  There may be a conspiracy going on in Winterfell, but it isn't to make Jon King.

But the way,Arya's whereabouts are well known in the North and possibly the Riverlands.  She is at Winterfell, married to Ramsay Bolton.  We know she is fake; they don't.  And she would take precedence over Jon, especially once they get rid of her husband.  If the BwB knows about the marriage, they may assume Sandor Clegane turned her over to the Lannisters.

Whatever Jon's actual relationship is with Stannis, it is uniformly believed that he is in Stannis's camp.  This will inevitably affect any plans to put Jon in a position of power in the North as it will be assumed that Stannis is part of the deal.

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9 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The fact is - Maege and Galbart are with Howland Reed. They know the truth. The little feisty Mormont girl in Bear Island knows the truth, and didn’t have the self control to entirely keep it hidden in her fiery response to Stannis.

In regards to this, it isn't just lyanna mormont that know the truth.

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"Sisters," Alysane Mormont replied, gruff as ever. "Five, we were. All girls. Lyanna is back on Bear Island. Lyra and Jory are with our mother. Dacey was murdered."

Alysane knows that her sisters are with her mother. She has no doubts that they are with maege and are all alive. And the fact that she is atacking the IB in Deepwood motte (galbart lands) could mean that it was maege that told her to do it so that galbart can gather his men in order to support robb's will. After all, why would the mormonts be atacking the IB in deepwood motte?

9 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Robbet Glover is with Manderly, so Manderly therefore likely knows the truth as well.  

Here I think you are wrong. Wyman is showing that he is a bolton/lannister suporter since the beguining of feast/dance. He gave hornwood to the boltons, acepted that several members of his familly would marry freys and is even getting his son back. Wether galbart knew that his brother was in white arbor or not it is unlikely that he would contact him because wyman looks like a big traitor. And after the RW the northern wouldn't trust that easily.

9 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

And why would Howland, Gallbart and Wyman not inform other loyalists like the Umbers, Widow’s Watch Flints, Cerwyns, Slates and Mountain clansmen of this truth? The North is big, and unlike in the Show, undetected travel between various settlements is a trivially easy affair. Every loyal lord could have been informed by rider or messenger without any need of using a raven.

Here I also disagre that maege and mormont would inform a lot of lords before they can get jon out of the NW and have him protected. Don't forget that from their perspective they don't know that jon is LC and therefore they think that they need men to pressure the NW to release jon from his vows.

In addtion, houses like the karstarks and umbers don't look like trustworthy houses because jon umber is an hostage and the karstarks were anti stark before robb died.

Basically, what can maege and galbart do to enforce the will at the start of feast/dance? The first step should be to get allies to pressure the NW into releasing jon. Given that they disapear for most of the book I am sugesting that they could have spent the majority of the book riding from the neck to the clans because they could get thousands of men there that should loyal to the starks and the IT doesn't have clansmen hostages. And it would explain why jon thinks that the clans chiefs behaviour is odd at the wedding. But if you have better ideas I would like to listen.

9 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The big decider now will be Houses Dustin and Ryswell, and seems to me they were playing it safe, waiting to see which side fortune favours before making their move. And the Battle of Ice will likely be that decisive tipping point.

While I can see stannis deafeating the freys in the village I think the aftermath is just too dificult to predict. Almost anything can happen.

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4 hours ago, Nevets said:

Any attempt to make Jon Robb's heir or King in the North is going to founder on the rock of Jon's membership in the Nights Watch.   The Nights Watch has never released anyone from his vows.  If Robb made Jon his heir with that expectation then he was engaging in wishful thinking, as is anyone trying to put that into effect.  With Robb it is understandable.  Northern lords should, and probably do, know better.  There may be a conspiracy going on in Winterfell, but it isn't to make Jon King.

This isn't exactly true. We know that robb, cat, stannis, mel and jon all think that he can leave the NW and be a leader in the north. I understand why you would think it is a problem but the people in the book just don't think it is.

4 hours ago, Nevets said:

But the way,Arya's whereabouts are well known in the North and possibly the Riverlands.  She is at Winterfell, married to Ramsay Bolton.  We know she is fake; they don't.  And she would take precedence over Jon, especially once they get rid of her husband.  If the BwB knows about the marriage, they may assume Sandor Clegane turned her over to the Lannisters.

Actually, the BwB might know that farya is a fake because of the timeline of the events. I don't remember all the details involved, but if the lannisters claim that they had arya while she was with them then the BwB and LSH would know that farya is probably fake. And if these people know a lot of the lords that suported robb should know.

And if robb legitimized jon in his will then he could/should take precedence over arya. 

4 hours ago, Nevets said:

Whatever Jon's actual relationship is with Stannis, it is uniformly believed that he is in Stannis's camp.  This will inevitably affect any plans to put Jon in a position of power in the North as it will be assumed that Stannis is part of the deal.

Who believes this?

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To be clear, I've no problems with there being conspiracies to restore House Stark to Winterfell. One such is really in effect with Rickon Stark.

What I've problems with is the idea that there is another such conspiracy to hand the North to Jon Snow, because there is no evidence for this.

I also have problems with the idea that the Northmen could be as fickly and dishonest creatures as first fighting for Stannis and then turning their backs on him either for a bastard or a half-wild five-year-old. That is just not very likely to happen.

I can see Jon Snow sort of ending up as 'the leader of the folks north of the Neck' after Stannis' death - but not with Stannis dying at the village/at Winterfell because that would effectively mean that the Boltons win - in the name of Rickon or Brandon Stark ... or perhaps even in the name of one of his absent sisters if Rickon dies before Stannis (and Bran is too stupid to make himself known before all that transpires).

But I don't see him taking on the title of king, nor do I see him - or anyone, for that matter - consciously working towards such a development. This would be something that comes to pass because there is no other man around who could take up Stannis' mantle after his death ... and because events in the meantime established Jon as somebody who is no longer viewed (only) as the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. In time people could become more comfortable with the idea that he could lead them. It is even possible that Robb's will might be cited in that context as one of the reasons why Jon Snow should run the show.

But I won't consider the possibility that the Lords of the Norths in general and Jon in particular want to make him king instead of Eddard Stark's trueborn children. That would simply not be right.

The general idea that all the North is trying to get rid of the Boltons is also pretty much laughable.

What may happen is that Roose and Ramsay will see defection upon defection when the tide turns against them ... to the point that, in the end, even the Dustins and Ryswells abandon him. But while it still looked that Roose could win this thing they wouldn't have done that. Because, in the end, those people care more about themselves and their own than who rules over them.

One important thing in this context is the loss of 'Arya'. That could cost Roose the allegiance of a considerable portion of the Northmen at Winterfell, namely the Umbers, Tallharts, Cerwyns, etc. who came to Winterfell for the wedding. If those people turned against the Boltons or just refused to fight when Stannis comes knocking at the door they will be in a very bad position.

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6 hours ago, Nevets said:

Any attempt to make Jon Robb's heir or King in the North is going to founder on the rock of Jon's membership in the Nights Watch.   The Nights Watch has never released anyone from his vows.  If Robb made Jon his heir with that expectation then he was engaging in wishful thinking, as is anyone trying to put that into effect.  With Robb it is understandable.  Northern lords should, and probably do, know better.  There may be a conspiracy going on in Winterfell, but it isn't to make Jon King.

But the way,Arya's whereabouts are well known in the North and possibly the Riverlands.  She is at Winterfell, married to Ramsay Bolton.  We know she is fake; they don't.  And she would take precedence over Jon, especially once they get rid of her husband.  If the BwB knows about the marriage, they may assume Sandor Clegane turned her over to the Lannisters.

Whatever Jon's actual relationship is with Stannis, it is uniformly believed that he is in Stannis's camp.  This will inevitably affect any plans to put Jon in a position of power in the North as it will be assumed that Stannis is part of the deal.

You have summarized the problem pretty well. The entire idea to hand the North to Jon Snow fails simply because folks in the North cannot trust that Jon isn't Stannis' man and would actually reject their proposal. If you want to turn against/betray a king and install another pretender said pretender has to be onboard with your ideas. Else you risk to look very stupid very fast ... and you might find yourselves without heads.

The other thing is that as per the end of ADwD 'Arya Stark' has been freed from the Boltons, so once Ramsay and Roose are dead she can be installed as Lady of Winterfell. Neither Rickon - who is supposed to be the Manderly weapon against 'Arya'! - nor Jon or any other Stark are necessary. Once they have Arya, they have their Stark pretender. Regardless whether she is real or fake. That doesn't matter. 'Arya' sort of worked for Roose, she can also work for other factions.

Robb's will has no bearing on all this, especially since he failed to get Jon out of the NW before his death. Not to mention he also failed to protect the North and failed to defeat his enemies in the south.

A lot of people want to avenge Robb - and the kin they lost at the Red Wedding - but that's not the same as them wanting to continue Robb's folly.

As I said - the only Lords of the North supporting the 'King in the North' idea at the war council were Jon Umber, Maege Mormont, and Rickard Karstark. That's not enough to make the claim folks in the North are all obsessed with the idea that they have to govern themselves. Especially not after their last attempt at doing that failed spectacularly.

Robb Stark is a lesson that young Stark boys who dream big should better take a step back and relax.

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21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The general idea that all the North is trying to get rid of the Boltons is also pretty much laughable.

Is that a joke? Do you think they've forgotten Lady Hornwood? That was not a one off episode of abuse. Every one of Ramsay's hounds is named after a girl he's hunted and I think raped and flayed. And - only the girls who give him good sport get a dog named after them. And - dogs have short lives, so they're getting replaced.

That is a lot of suffering, far too much to hide. But Roose says he has a peaceful land and a quiet people, so we have to conclude that those people have are living in constant fear of their lord. You bet their neighbours know about it.

No one wants the Boltons.

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1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Is that a joke? Do you think they've forgotten Lady Hornwood? That was not a one off episode of abuse. Every one of Ramsay's hounds is named after a girl he's hunted and I think raped and flayed. And - only the girls who give him good sport get a dog named after them. And - dogs have short lives, so they're getting replaced.

That is a lot of suffering, far too much to hide. But Roose says he has a peaceful land and a quiet people, so we have to conclude that those people have are living in constant fear of their lord. You bet their neighbours know about it.

No one wants the Boltons.

The Northmen still obey Roose and come to Winterfell to attend the wedding and fight Stannis. They do not fight against him and his son.

They might not be happy with how things turned out but they also do not offer any real, honest, open resistance. You know, the kind Robb offered when he was proclaimed king. He didn't try to suck up to Joffrey and then stab him in the back.

I'm not saying they will not come around ... but for that things have to look better for Stannis and worse for Roose.

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23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The other thing is that as per the end of ADwD 'Arya Stark' has been freed from the Boltons, so once Ramsay and Roose are dead she can be installed as Lady of Winterfell. Neither Rickon - who is supposed to be the Manderly weapon against 'Arya'! - nor Jon or any other Stark are necessary. Once they have Arya, they have their Stark pretender. Regardless whether she is real or fake. That doesn't matter. 'Arya' sort of worked for Roose, she can also work for other factions.

Robb's will has no bearing on all this, especially since he failed to get Jon out of the NW before his death. Not to mention he also failed to protect the North and failed to defeat his enemies in the south.

A lot of people want to avenge Robb - and the kin they lost at the Red Wedding - but that's not the same as them wanting to continue Robb's folly.

As I said - the only Lords of the North supporting the 'King in the North' idea at the war council were Jon Umber, Maege Mormont, and Rickard Karstark. That's not enough to make the claim folks in the North are all obsessed with the idea that they have to govern themselves. Especially not after their last attempt at doing that failed spectacularly.

Robb Stark is a lesson that young Stark boys who dream big should better take a step back and relax.

So in your opinion there is no Raise Jon up conspiracy (or at least it is not a major plot backed by northern houses.

in that case, what is your opinion on the purpose of Robb's will? If it never comes into play, I'm not sure why George would include it. 

Is it in your opinion, or at least a feasible possibility that the significance of the will will not come into play until after Jon dies and is resurrected. with the She-Bear headed to the wall with Asha (whose mother likely shared the contents of the will with her) we have an opportunity for Jon's watch to end, thus satisfying the requirement of not being part of the watch. if he is perceived as loved by the old gods, or a chosen one of some kind to the northmen, well, why wouldn't they make him king in the north? thoughts?

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41 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

They might not be happy with how things turned out but they also do not offer any real, honest, open resistance. You know, the kind Robb offered when he was proclaimed king. He didn't try to suck up to Joffrey and then stab him in the back.

Like the Boltons deserve real, honest, open resistance? Look at Roose's record.

41 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm not saying they will not come around ... but for that things have to look better for Stannis and worse for Roose.

For sure. The important thing is the winning.

38 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

in that case, what is your opinion on the purpose of Robb's will? If it never comes into play, I'm not sure why George would include it.

Excuse for butting in, but imho the will be is going to be most useful before Jon is resurrected. He wanted to communicate with the dead, now he's in the spirit world, he can. With king status, he can play out the role of Tolkein's Aragorn, take on the Others in their own field. Someone has to.

Alternatively, part of the bittersweet ending. No crown for twice-entitled Jon.

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22 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

So in your opinion there is no Raise Jon up conspiracy (or at least it is not a major plot backed by northern houses.

in that case, what is your opinion on the purpose of Robb's will? If it never comes into play, I'm not sure why George would include it. 

Is it in your opinion, or at least a feasible possibility that the significance of the will will not come into play until after Jon dies and is resurrected. with the She-Bear headed to the wall with Asha (whose mother likely shared the contents of the will with her) we have an opportunity for Jon's watch to end, thus satisfying the requirement of not being part of the watch. if he is perceived as loved by the old gods, or a chosen one of some kind to the northmen, well, why wouldn't they make him king in the north? thoughts?

As I think I already mentioned somewhere above my take is that Jon could end up as the de facto ruler of the North after Stannis' and/or Rickon's death, - assuming Bran and Sansa and Arya do not pop up in the meantime to take things into their own hands - but I'd expect him to do that more in the role of a Lord Protector or steward of the North rather than taking the style of lord or even king. He would basically act in the name of his minor siblings, possibly even in their absence.

Both because it would be counterproductive in his dealings with folks in the south he needs to buy food and organize resistance against the Others.

The will could come into play for such a role as another reason why the Lords of the North might agree that young Rickon and the North should be entrusted to Jon's care, say, rather than that of some other Northern lord - a Manderly, say, or an Umber.

That Jon might technically get out of the NW after a resurrection isn't really an issue for me because I don't think Jon would want to leave the Wall or the Watch to wage a war in the south or rebuild Winterfell or anything of that sort. He knows what is at stake.

Also, we would have to keep in mind that at the moment Jon basically has the support/friendship of effectively no important Northman. There are a couple of clansmen chiefs with him, but their relative influence rests on their military strength, so if the clansmen were to suffer terrible losses at the village or at Winterfell they would no longer have much weight. Jon played a role in the Alys-Sigorn marriage, and that is crucial, but Harrion Karstark is the true Lord of Karhold, not Alys or her husband. If Harrion lives then Jon's influence with the Karstarks wouldn't be that significant.

The other Lords of the North don't seem to care much for Jon Snow at all.

After his resurrection he would need time to establish himself with the Northmen, etc.

Basically, my guess is that if Jon ends up in a position of strong leadership then it will be as the effective heir/lieutenant of Stannis. Stannis should return to the Wall if he wins at Winterfell, and Jon and he should work closely together until Stannis' eventual death. Although that might already coincide with the ultimate attack of the Others on the Wall so that there won't be much to do in the department of mundane politics.

What I don't see is Jon taking part in any kind of scheming/politicking against either Stannis or any of his trueborn siblings ... and it should come out very soon now that they are still alive.

Sansa is in the Vale and just a raven removed from declaring that she is alive, Davos is searching for Rickon, the clansmen should know that Bran and Rickon are still out there, too, and Bran has mastered the ability to speak through the trees. One would, for instance, expect that Stannis makes Rickon Jon's ward once Davos brings him back.

Jon just isn't the kind of guy who would allow that people use him to start what could be another civil war in the North - nor would he be keen to wear a crown. I don't even think he would want to leave the NW even after his resurrection.

What I could see, in the end, is that Bran and/or others push Jon to take the mantle of the leader because they see him as the promised prince. But that would be completely separate issue from the entire Stark succession issue and would be connected to the revelation of his true parentage.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

What I don't see is Jon taking part in any kind of scheming/politicking against either Stannis or any of his trueborn siblings ... and it should come out very soon now that they are still alive.

Sansa is in the Vale and just a raven removed from declaring that she is alive, Davos is searching for Rickon, the clansmen should know that Bran and Rickon are still out there, too, and Bran has mastered the ability to speak through the trees. One would, for instance, expect that Stannis makes Rickon Jon's ward once Davos brings him back.

Jon just isn't the kind of guy who would allow that people use him to start what could be another civil war in the North - nor would he be keen to wear a crown. I don't even think he would want to leave the NW even after his resurrection.

What I could see, in the end, is that Bran and/or others push Jon to take the mantle of the leader because they see him as the promised prince. But that would be completely separate issue from the entire Stark succession issue and would be connected to the revelation of his true parentage.

So in this capacity could you see Jon as a potential successor to say Cragan Stark? Following the new Dance of the Dragons (or wolves) he may rule briefly in his own Hour of the Wolf to set things right? Based on your interpretation of Jon's character that seems like a feasible role to me for Jon to play  in this conflict before later returning to the wall/ north of the wall. 

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15 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

So in this capacity could you see Jon as a potential successor to say Cragan Stark? Following the new Dance of the Dragons (or wolves) he may rule briefly in his own Hour of the Wolf to set things right? Based on your interpretation of Jon's character that seems like a feasible role to me for Jon to play  in this conflict before later returning to the wall/ north of the wall. 

I think in the wake of the Winterfell situation and Jon's resurrection the good wildlings (not the Weeper and his people), the remnants of the NW, Stannis' people, and the Northmen will form some kind of anti-Others alliance which is going to be first headed by Stannis but will eventually fall to Jon who is going to be Stannis' second-in-command/lieutenant/de facto heir even before his death (there might also be a falling-out between them over the Shireen issue and other things, but that's not the immediate future).

I also expect that the center of political power in the North in that time will be at the Wall - at the Nightfort, Stannis' new royal seat - and that Jon really won't have to formally cut ties with the NW or anything to fill Stannis' shoes after his death. I can even see him to continue as Lord Commander while also becoming Lord Protector of the North in the name of Lord Rickon or Lady Sansa/Arya. I'd also expect that if Rickon is alive and returned to the North that Stannis might betroth him to Shireen to creating a lasting bond between his family and Jon's.

Stannis and Jon will build a coalition to man the Wall and defend it against the Others when they make their move to breach it. We will find the Watch there, wildlings, the Northmen who survive the fighting at Winterfell, possibly the sellswords Stannis intends to hire.

And when the Others finally make their move then most of those people are likely to die. At which point the only way to defeat them will be a larger alliance with people from the south.

Insofar as policies are concerned I'm inclined to believe that Mel and Stannis will pursue an isolationist approach - meaning they will tell their followers that they don't need the help of Aegon or Daenerys (assuming they ever learn that she exists) or any of the other folks in the south because Stannis is the savior. And that will lead to disaster.

Jon, on the other hand, should be somebody who argues in favor of working with other parties, to unite their efforts, etc.

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2 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Errrr.... why not a maester? Send out messages detailing Robb's will? You can hardly enforce it if no one knows about it.

Because if a house loyal to the IT or the boltons hears about the will it would lead to them informing the boltons and people being sent to the wall to kill jon.

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3 minutes ago, divica said:

Because if a house loyal to the IT or the boltons hears about the will it would lead to them informing the boltons and people being sent to the wall to kill jon.

True...I forgot about that variable. 

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I also expect that the center of political power in the North in that time will be at the Wall

This is actually a good guess. Without the glass gardens it is impossible to live in winterfell during winter. we have just seen with stannis how hard it is to go to winterfell during winter so it is nearly impossible to send food there. On the other hand, CB has food and is 3 days away from eastwatch. And people can always receive food via boat.

However, we also have jon planning to build more glass gardens and we know people will rebuild winterfell because it is winterfell! So I think that while at the start the wall might be the center of power eventually the leadership will return to winterfell. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon really won't have to formally cut ties with the NW or anything to fill Stannis' shoes after his death. I can even see him to continue as Lord Commander while also becoming Lord Protector of the North in the name of Lord Rickon or Lady Sansa/Arya. I'd also expect that if Rickon is alive and returned to the North that Stannis might betroth him to Shireen to creating a lasting bond between his family and Jon's.

Stannis and Jon will build a coalition to man the Wall and defend it against the Others when they make their move to breach it. We will find the Watch there, wildlings, the Northmen who survive the fighting at Winterfell, possibly the sellswords Stannis intends to hire.

And when the Others finally make their move then most of those people are likely to die. At which point the only way to defeat them will be a larger alliance with people from the south.

Here I start to completly disagree. It makes more sense for stannis to stay in charge of the wall while jon represents the north looking for allies in the south, sources of food, ways to rebuild winterfell and keep the north fed during winter, dealing with the chaos of teh riverlands associated with the north...

We can't wait for the wall to fall before someone from the north cares about all these stuff. And it makes sense for the wall to be maned by stannis, r'hllor believers, sellswords and some wildlings instead of a lot of northerns because there aren't a lot of northerns left. They can't loose much more batles.

It is also interesting to note that we have alys married to a wildling, an umber daughter that is married to a wildling and might reapear and wildlings moving into the gift. Grrm is making it possible for wildlings to live between the wall and winterfell.

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39 minutes ago, divica said:

This is actually a good guess. Without the glass gardens it is impossible to live in winterfell during winter. we have just seen with stannis how hard it is to go to winterfell during winter so it is nearly impossible to send food there. On the other hand, CB has food and is 3 days away from eastwatch. And people can always receive food via boat.

However, we also have jon planning to build more glass gardens and we know people will rebuild winterfell because it is winterfell! So I think that while at the start the wall might be the center of power eventually the leadership will return to winterfell. 

I'm sure Stannis is going to leave men at Winterfell if he takes the castle and that it will be rebuild by those men while he returns to the Wall. POVs might return back to Winterfell when the Wall falls ... or even before that for some reasons, but since they should do everything in their power to defend the Wall before it falls the power center in the North should move to the Wall.

And that's all implied with the Nightfort as Stannis' new royal seat and stuff. George didn't abandon that plot line, he just couldn't jump there directly since he abandoned the five year gap.

39 minutes ago, divica said:

Here I start to completly disagree. It makes more sense for stannis to stay in charge of the wall while jon represents the north looking for allies in the south, sources of food, ways to rebuild winterfell and keep the north fed during winter, dealing with the chaos of teh riverlands associated with the north...

We can't wait for the wall to fall before someone from the north cares about all these stuff. And it makes sense for the wall to be maned by stannis, r'hllor believers, sellswords and some wildlings instead of a lot of northerns because there aren't a lot of northerns left. They can't loose much more batles.

It is also interesting to note that we have alys married to a wildling, an umber daughter that is married to a wildling and might reapear and wildlings moving into the gift. Grrm is making it possible for wildlings to live between the wall and winterfell.

Oh, I'm sure Jon or other characters might travel around while the Wall is manned, although I actually expect Jon to make forays beyond the Wall depending when exactly he will be resurrected rather than bothering with the North. And we should expect a speedy resurrection considering this is not going to be something folks will think about after his death. They will have their hands full with other stuff.

If his resurrection involves a Melisandre-like transformation, i.e. him becoming imbued with living fire he might be ideally suited to explore things beyond the Wall even in freezing cold. He and Melisandre would be the only two characters who would not really have to fear to encounter either wights or Others. And we have to remember the Hardhome situation. Jon's assassination prevented that, but he might still want to go there after his resurrection. Or he might want to visit Bran in his cave if he learns that he is there.

I'd expect that Stannis is going to take most of his army back to the Wall and if he destroys both Roose and Ramsay he might command most/all the Northern lords to attend him either at Winterfell or the Nightfort ... not just to do them homage as their king but to have a great council of sorts to inform them about the threat the Others pose and that they have to work together now to do ensure the Wall doesn't fall. This is long overdue now.

If the Northmen don't get their act together and help man the Wall physically I'd be really disappointed. I'm aware that they are not likely to be able to marshal that many men, but Stannis does have a couple of thousand and the Manderlys could offer some more. Not to mention that not all Northmen right now with Roose are going to be butchered if Stannis wins. Many might defect to Stannis, stand aside, or stab the Boltons in the back. I'm sure Stannis will hang all the men who were directly involved in the Red Wedding, but the others standing with Roose can expect the same kind of pardon he gave to the Karstark levies who were about to betray him.

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12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm sure Stannis is going to leave men at Winterfell if he takes the castle and that it will be rebuild by those men while he returns to the Wall. POVs might return back to Winterfell when the Wall falls ... or even before that for some reasons, but since they should do everything in their power to defend the Wall before it falls the power center in the North should move to the Wall.

And that's all implied with the Nightfort as Stannis' new royal seat and stuff. George didn't abandon that plot line, he just couldn't jump there directly since he abandoned the five year gap.

But between wildlings, southerns, NW and sellswords stannis should have enough men. Because the north can marshal the 5k men with stannis, the 5k men in winterfell and whatever the mandarlys can gather. There aren't more men in the north. Even with the battle of winterfell they can't suffer catastrophic losses. That is why I think that if the wall falls in the near futures it can't cause many northern casualties.

And the people in the north need to take preparations for winter. That should be jon's role in the future. How are the northern lords suposed to feed their people? Who will negotiate food deals? get people to buil glass gardens? gather obsidian from skagos? Look for southern allies? Warn the south about what is coming? Convince the lords and wildlings to coexist? Heal the rifts between northmen? Deal with the shit coming from the riverlands with the BwB, jeyne westerling, the blackfish... The norths needs someone to try to heal it and prepare it for winter.

On the other hand stannis can repair the castles, train the men, make war strategies, form a united army, build defences, do whatever mel advises that is efective agains the others...

Wether or not jon assumes the role of king the north needs a leader that knows what to do in order to prepare for winter and can gather the support from northerns and wildlings.

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I'm sure Jon or other characters might travel around while the Wall is manned, although I actually expect Jon to make forays beyond the Wall depending when exactly he will be resurrected rather than bothering with the North. And we should expect a speedy resurrection considering this is not going to be something folks will think about after his death. They will have their hands full with other stuff.

If his resurrection involves a Melisandre-like transformation, i.e. him becoming imbued with living fire he might be ideally suited to explore things beyond the Wall even in freezing cold. He and Melisandre would be the only two characters who would not really have to fear to encounter either wights or Others. And we have to remember the Hardhome situation. Jon's assassination prevented that, but he might still want to go there after his resurrection. Or he might want to visit Bran in his cave if he learns that he is there.

I'd expect that Stannis is going to take most of his army back to the Wall and if he destroys both Roose and Ramsay he might command most/all the Northern lords to attend him either at Winterfell or the Nightfort ... not just to do them homage as their king but to have a great council of sorts to inform them about the threat the Others pose and that they have to work together now to do ensure the Wall doesn't fall. This is long overdue now.

If the Northmen don't get their act together and help man the Wall physically I'd be really disappointed. I'm aware that they are not likely to be able to marshal that many men, but Stannis does have a couple of thousand and the Manderlys could offer some more. Not to mention that not all Northmen right now with Roose are going to be butchered if Stannis wins. Many might defect to Stannis, stand aside, or stab the Boltons in the back. I'm sure Stannis will hang all the men who were directly involved in the Red Wedding, but the others standing with Roose can expect the same kind of pardon he gave to the Karstark levies who were about to betray him.

I don't think that after the near future (because they need to deal with the weeper and other wildlings) forays north are needed or possible. For the pov we have bran and then there countless wights and others that would prevent anyone from traveling north of the wall. 

And I think that the speedy ressurection/healing is a must. There is too much happening in the north and in the wall. The weeper and hardhome can't wait much longer. The political situation inside the NW is unbearable with thousands of wildlings, hostages, stannis people being in danger of becoming hostages/hunted, the Nw having an internal conflict, some people will die in the direct aftermath of jon's atack because wun wun is out of control and the noise was gathering people's atention...

If jon doesn't take control within hours then the NW will probably go extinct.

 

 

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On 4/29/2021 at 5:40 PM, Orion2 said:

"smuggle me back my leige lord and...something like that. 

and also the part about the north remembers. basically everything manderly says to Davos is like I love the Starks and I want revenge. The whole set up with how the Starks helped the manderlys and stuff also.

and then there's the part about ned going to the clans, and there's the Glovers, and alys and the Reeds. Theres a lot of effort put into telling the reader who the stark allies are. I mean they exist. People really liked Ned. @Lord Varys

Manderly had an agenda when he said all that to Davos. As you said he wanted Davos to get him Rickon Stark. Probably so he can raise Rickon, marry him off to his daughter and rule the North by proxy. Manderly didn't even send one of his own people to go looking for Rickon. You'd think the Lord of White Harbor who is building up a fleet would have a smuggler, sailor or whatever who knows the area. He coerced Davos into doing it. Since it's no loss to him if he fails, and maybe it'll keep Stannis friendly in the off chance he wins and maybe it'll net him the Stark heir to rule the north through. Regardless of his flowery words to Davos, his actions are very plain. He's after revenge on the Boltons and Freys. A living Stark he controls would be useful, but he's going after it regardless. If he manages to usurp Bolton rule in the North, he's not going to meekly hand it over to Jon or anyone he can't control.

Maybe people liked Ned but he's dead. So is Robb. Honestly I still think the loyalty to the Starks is seen through the filter of the Stark children. Maybe there's nostalgia because the Boltons and Freys suck, but that doesn't mean any of them are going to put their neck on the line for Jon Snow or Bran or Rickon. 

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