The pink letter

[Orion2]

based on the thread by @divica about robs will and another discussion I saw about the pink letter. Maybe this is kinda dumb but. The pink letter is code from Wyman to the clansmen at castle black. Unfortunately Jon doesn't ask them first

[divica]

3 minutes ago, Orion2 said:

based on the thread by @divica about robs will and another discussion I saw about the pink letter. Maybe this is kinda dumb but. The pink letter is code from Wyman to the clansmen at castle black. Unfortunately Jon doesn't ask them first

Does wyman ever talk with the clans? When? And wyman is injured and probably left behind in winterfell in order to recover no? How would he send a letter?

[Orion2]

17 minutes ago, divica said:

Does wyman ever talk with the clans? When? And wyman is injured and probably left behind in winterfell in order to recover no? How would he send a letter?

I don't know, I just want it to happen. So Mance goes to winterfell and then talks to Wyman, the clans are at castle black to evaluate Jon, and they also need Wyman's support to be comfortable crowning Jon so mance tells Wyman all this and then Wyman sends the letter to let the clans know that he supports them. How tf the clans know what wymans saying I have no idea. Maybe Wyman just decides that its time to provoke Jon into joining the war. Idk. Honestly its a pretty stupid theory

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

im not sure to the degree of Wyman's complicity, but I can definite entertain the idea that the pink letter was coded message. I just assumed it was directed to the red woman or something if that was the case, and only if it was Mance or Stannis who wrote it (though i have little idea why Stannis would do this)

I think more likely it was a bluff to get Jon to breaches vows and march south with the wildling army now that Mance's original plan failed.

 

[Egged]

The language of the letter implies it's Mance.

No one ever said "black crows" in all of the books except wildlings, and they said it many times.

Mance made a reference to cutting out someone's heart.

The repeated "bastard" usage as Mance did.

"False king" is what he was called while being "burned", so he's throwing that back at Stannis.

Mance said "Ask your red witch".

[Orion2]

ok ok you're right @Egged

[divica]

1 hour ago, Egged said:

The language of the letter implies it's Mance.

No one ever said "black crows" in all of the books except wildlings, and they said it times.

Mance made a reference to cutting out someone's heart.

The repeated "bastard" usage as Mance did.

"False king" is what he was called while being "burned", so he's throwing that back at Stannis.

Mance said "Ask your red witch".

But a ramsay just finished from torturing mance could simply have repeated the words he just heard.

[Egged]

1 hour ago, divica said:

But a ramsay just finished from torturing mance could simply have repeated the words he just heard.

Why write as if Mance wrote it? It's written as if it was Mance who was speaking. It's not that some information that Mance knew is written in the letter, it is that it is written exactly like Mance speaks and has references to things only Mance or wildlings said.

[Orion2]

yeah Ramsey pretending to be Mance pretending to be Ramsey

[Tagganaro]

17 hours ago, Egged said:

The language of the letter implies it's Mance.

No one ever said "black crows" in all of the books except wildlings, and they said it many times.

Mance made a reference to cutting out someone's heart.

The repeated "bastard" usage as Mance did.

"False king" is what he was called while being "burned", so he's throwing that back at Stannis.

Mance said "Ask your red witch".

Just to add to this too:  Mance as Rattleshirt and Jon speak in the practice yard before Mance beats him up.  Jon tells what he thinks is Rattleshirt that Stannis burnt the wrong man.  Mance replies that Stannis "burned the man he had to burn, for all the world to see."  The Pink Letter also says that Mance is "in a cage for all the north to see."

To be fair though, I could also see Ramsay using a lot of the language that's in the PL.  He would hate being called a bastard, he would probably refer to Stannis as a false king, and I wouldn't put it past him to refer to Mel as a Red Witch and to use a derogatory term for Night's Watch like crows.  

[Lord Lannister]

Well the letter was written to get under Jon's skin and succeeded. Between the personal knowledge of Jon and the turns of phrase used in the letter it almost certainly has to be Mance. 

Only real question is why? Maybe it's as simple as him needing help on his mission but he doesn't really seem to care about that. I think his objective was to get Jon to break his vow and to get the NW fighting among itself. Which is exactly what happened. That gives his people the Wall by default.

[Back in Black-Snow]

5 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Well the letter was written to get under Jon's skin and succeeded. Between the personal knowledge of Jon and the turns of phrase used in the letter it almost certainly has to be Mance. 

Only real question is why? Maybe it's as simple as him needing help on his mission but he doesn't really seem to care about that. I think his objective was to get Jon to break his vow and to get the NW fighting among itself. Which is exactly what happened. That gives his people the Wall by default.

And it gets Jon out of his vows. I am sure Mance is just as aware as Stannis is how important it is for Jon to be Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North in their fight against the Others. They need Jon Snow in order to rally the North to their cause.

[Egged]

5 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Well the letter was written to get under Jon's skin and succeeded. Between the personal knowledge of Jon and the turns of phrase used in the letter it almost certainly has to be Mance. 

Only real question is why? Maybe it's as simple as him needing help on his mission but he doesn't really seem to care about that. I think his objective was to get Jon to break his vow and to get the NW fighting among itself. Which is exactly what happened. That gives his people the Wall by default.

I think Mance always knew the wildlings would not survive south of the wall without blood alliances, and Val knew as well, and it's why she is high-born-like and not married yet. The plan was always for her to marry south of the wall. He probably never knew exactly how he would work that out, but it still would have been his plan. He now believes Jon would make a proper king, with a blood alliance with Val. So Mance knew they would have to change, but he could never tell them or they wouldn't follow. Now, he needs to help Jon become one the wildlings would accept as their king, and the north needs a king they would accept themselves too. It's hard work, and it obviously won't go smoothly as the north will have trouble accepting them to begin with. But that would be the plan, and he wants Jon to come and take Winterfell, because if Manderly or others do the wildlings are likely screwed. To do that, Jon needs to break from the Watch.

When Rickon shows up, more wildling-like than highborn, Jon will probably push for him to be king as his regent, and chances are Rickon will be opposed because of that.

[divica]

5 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Well the letter was written to get under Jon's skin and succeeded. Between the personal knowledge of Jon and the turns of phrase used in the letter it almost certainly has to be Mance. 

Only real question is why? Maybe it's as simple as him needing help on his mission but he doesn't really seem to care about that. I think his objective was to get Jon to break his vow and to get the NW fighting among itself. Which is exactly what happened. That gives his people the Wall by default.

That is a good point that I didn't mention in the topic about the consequences of the pink letter (you should check it out).

Mance knew that the weeper was gathering men to attack the wall. With the PL mance would make the NW fight among themselves and if someone killed/imprisoned jon then the NW would be leaderless to fight against the weeper.

 

[Orion2]

I second your take @Egged

[Lluewhyn]

Beyond the specific language used, here's why I think it's Mance:

1. My first reaction upon reading this section ~10 years ago is "There is NO WAY torture reveals that kind of information." Yeah, if everything was legit like the letter said, Ramsay might find out Mance's name and who sent him, as these would be reasonable questions to ask. But Mance's child and sister-in-law? There's no reason for Ramsay to know about their existence nor for Mance to divulge this information on his own. If Mance did tell Ramsay all of these many different things (selling out his own infant son and sister-in-law), then the formidable Mance Rayder ends up being this:

 

2. Why would Ramsay care about some of these individuals in the first place? It's kind of a "The Lady doth protest too much" when the letter demands all of these specific individuals, and then is kind of like "Oh, yeah and send me my Reek too". Mance is the only one who knows all of these individuals unless you believe in the torture story.

3. The story hinges upon Mance being captured, and many readers are primed to believe it's because Theon and the rest were spotted and the alarm raised just before they escaped off the walls. However, if this event had never happened there still would have been no reason for Mance to stick around. His ladies (and Theon) all just kidnapped Ramsay's bride and the guards will know it. One person (such as Ramsay) checking upon "Lady Arya" during her bath and the alarm is going to be raised and Mance is going to be tracked down immediately. Hanging around singing songs in the dining hall would be extremely stupid. As soon as the ladies approached the guards with their ruse, I imagine Mance was making himself scarce, possibly by checking out the crypts.

4. The glamour. While I think most glamour theories are silly, I do think the story primes Mance to use a glamour to hide as someone else. We get a passage in the books when Mance's identity is revealed to Jon, and instead of the magic being kept very vague like most other ASOIAF, instead we get Melisandre noticeably going into very explicit detail about how the glamour works, specifically about wearing the clothing or belongings strongly associated with an individual for the illusion to take hold. Specifically, I think Mance is going to glamour himself as Roose's Maester (by wearing the distinctive chains) to get access to the ravens.

What's the point of all this? It remains to be seen, but I theorize that TWOW is going to be dark and have some stories of the forces who should be on the same side actually getting into each other's way, like with various factions who will put forth a different Stark to become King/Queen (Manderly's plans for Rickon, Robb's letter declaring Jon his heir, the Vale bringing Sansa to Winterfell, etc. I think it's possible that Stannis is planning a ruse to have the Manderlys bringing back Stannis's sword to make it look like he was defeated and killed, but Mance won't know that (and things might get very deadly within Winterfell if Ramsay kills his father) and will try a plan of his own to bring the NW and Wildlings to come clean up Ramsay's forces before everyone is killed. Of course, this whole paragraph is pure speculation so if it *is* Mance, I'm sure we'll get more details why.

[Lord Varys]

That Mance idea is just so wrong.

I mean, perhaps Ramsay also didn't write the other letters supposedly written by Ramsay? Or Stannis didn't write the letter he sent to Jon from Deepwood?

If Mance had sent a letter to Jon he wouldn't claim he was sitting in a cage and his women had been skinned alive. That's just gross if it were fake - as well as all the other stuff about Stannis being dead, etc. Instead, he would not pretend to be somebody else and he would tell Jon Snow in clear terms what he needed him to know.

Anything else is just whacko nonsense.

What he might do is use a code that others did not realize he was actually Mance ... meaning he would, perhaps sign as 'Rattleshirt' or 'Lord of Bones' and wouldn't make it explicit he was actually Mance Rayder because up to that point he would still want to keep that a secret from third parties who might also read the letter.

Also, it is so clear in the book that Jon doesn't wonder who truly wrote that letter or thinks it could have been Mance - or anybody else - but Ramsay. Nobody even remotely liking Jon or wanting to work with him would ever write to him such a letter.

And it is quite clear that Mance wants to help Jon which is shown not only by the lesson he gives him on the practice yard but also later when he risks his own life to free Arya.

[divica]

51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That Mance idea is just so wrong.

I mean, perhaps Ramsay also didn't write the other letters supposedly written by Ramsay? Or Stannis didn't write the letter he sent to Jon from Deepwood?

If Mance had sent a letter to Jon he wouldn't claim he was sitting in a cage and his women had been skinned alive. That's just gross if it were fake - as well as all the other stuff about Stannis being dead, etc. Instead, he would not pretend to be somebody else and he would tell Jon Snow in clear terms what he needed him to know.

Anything else is just whacko nonsense.

What he might do is use a code that others did not realize he was actually Mance ... meaning he would, perhaps sign as 'Rattleshirt' or 'Lord of Bones' and wouldn't make it explicit he was actually Mance Rayder because up to that point he would still want to keep that a secret from third parties who might also read the letter.

Also, it is so clear in the book that Jon doesn't wonder who truly wrote that letter or thinks it could have been Mance - or anybody else - but Ramsay. Nobody even remotely liking Jon or wanting to work with him would ever write to him such a letter.

And it is quite clear that Mance wants to help Jon which is shown not only by the lesson he gives him on the practice yard but also later when he risks his own life to free Arya.

Actually it makes sense for mance to write that letter if he wants to create chaos in the NW in order to give the weeper a better shot in bringing the wildlings south under their terms.

Most of the arguments for ramsay writing the PL would work in this scenario.

And regarding mance working with jon and his real goals it is quite open to interpretation. We do know mance doesn't like tormund and that he liked the idea of going after arya because it would let him acomplish some old ploy of his and not because he wanted to show he was loyal.

Quote

Some of the spearwives penned up at Mole's Town should serve. Women would be best for this. The girl's more like to trust them, and they will help me carry off a certain ploy I have in mind

Did he go to winterfell because of arya of because he always planed to go to winterfell and use the spearwives for something?

 

edit. ACTUALY A PRETTY IMPORTANT EDIT

If mance was being tortured mel should know (like she knew when rattleshit was hurting) because of the ruby and therefore killed him. And if mance was able to take of the ruby then he has acces to powerful magic and objectives we have no clue about.

Quote

Melisandre spoke softly in a strange tongue. The ruby at her throat throbbed slowly, and Jon saw that the smaller stone on Rattleshirt's wrist was brightening and darkening as well. "So long as he wears the gem he is bound to me, blood and soul," the red priestess said. "This man will serve you faithfully. The flames do not lie, Lord Snow."

 

[divica]

1 hour ago, Lluewhyn said:

Beyond the specific language used, here's why I think it's Mance:

1. My first reaction upon reading this section ~10 years ago is "There is NO WAY torture reveals that kind of information." Yeah, if everything was legit like the letter said, Ramsay might find out Mance's name and who sent him, as these would be reasonable questions to ask. But Mance's child and sister-in-law? There's no reason for Ramsay to know about their existence nor for Mance to divulge this information on his own. If Mance did tell Ramsay all of these many different things (selling out his own infant son and sister-in-law), then the formidable Mance Rayder ends up being this:

 

2. Why would Ramsay care about some of these individuals in the first place? It's kind of a "The Lady doth protest too much" when the letter demands all of these specific individuals, and then is kind of like "Oh, yeah and send me my Reek too". Mance is the only one who knows all of these individuals unless you believe in the torture story.

3. The story hinges upon Mance being captured, and many readers are primed to believe it's because Theon and the rest were spotted and the alarm raised just before they escaped off the walls. However, if this event had never happened there still would have been no reason for Mance to stick around. His ladies (and Theon) all just kidnapped Ramsay's bride and the guards will know it. One person (such as Ramsay) checking upon "Lady Arya" during her bath and the alarm is going to be raised and Mance is going to be tracked down immediately. Hanging around singing songs in the dining hall would be extremely stupid. As soon as the ladies approached the guards with their ruse, I imagine Mance was making himself scarce, possibly by checking out the crypts.

4. The glamour. While I think most glamour theories are silly, I do think the story primes Mance to use a glamour to hide as someone else. We get a passage in the books when Mance's identity is revealed to Jon, and instead of the magic being kept very vague like most other ASOIAF, instead we get Melisandre noticeably going into very explicit detail about how the glamour works, specifically about wearing the clothing or belongings strongly associated with an individual for the illusion to take hold. Specifically, I think Mance is going to glamour himself as Roose's Maester (by wearing the distinctive chains) to get access to the ravens.

What's the point of all this? It remains to be seen, but I theorize that TWOW is going to be dark and have some stories of the forces who should be on the same side actually getting into each other's way, like with various factions who will put forth a different Stark to become King/Queen (Manderly's plans for Rickon, Robb's letter declaring Jon his heir, the Vale bringing Sansa to Winterfell, etc. I think it's possible that Stannis is planning a ruse to have the Manderlys bringing back Stannis's sword to make it look like he was defeated and killed, but Mance won't know that (and things might get very deadly within Winterfell if Ramsay kills his father) and will try a plan of his own to bring the NW and Wildlings to come clean up Ramsay's forces before everyone is killed. Of course, this whole paragraph is pure speculation so if it *is* Mance, I'm sure we'll get more details why.

You have forgotten that ramsay also had several spearwives to torture. And ramsay is very good at torturing people.

And the glamor is not really well explained because

Quote

Melisandre spoke softly in a strange tongue. The ruby at her throat throbbed slowly, and Jon saw that the smaller stone on Rattleshirt's wrist was brightening and darkening as well. "So long as he wears the gem he is bound to me, blood and soul," the red priestess said. "This man will serve you faithfully. The flames do not lie, Lord Snow."

And we have no description of a ruby on abel. So how did mance take it of?

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, divica said:

Actually it makes sense for mance to write that letter if he wants to create chaos in the NW in order to give the weeper a better shot in bringing the wildlings south under their terms.

Most of the arguments for ramsay writing the PL would work in this scenario.

And regarding mance working with jon and his real goals it is quite open to interpretation. We do know mance doesn't like tormund and that he liked the idea of going after arya because it would let him acomplish some old ploy of his and not because he wanted to show he was loyal.

Did he go to winterfell because of arya of because he always planed to go to winterfell and use the spearwives for something?

Mance has no way of knowing that such a letter written by him would create 'chaos'. Jon Snow could just ignore it. Mance doesn't dislike Tormund, he just doesn't think that Tormund is going to have as much success with the wildlings as the Weeper will have. And he doesn't look forward to that guy coming down south, as he himself points out in the Melisandre chapter.

The 'certain ploy' Mance talks about is him using the spearwives as washerwomen so he can infiltrate Winterfell as Abel the Bard. And the point of that is to get 'Arya' to Jon Snow. There is no indication that Mance had any other objective or goal at Winterfell.

Mance also had no foreknowledge that he would go to Winterfell. Melisandre saw something in her fires and then suggested to Jon that they should send Mance. How could Mance have another agenda at Winterfell in such a scenario?

If Mance had volunteered to do this - like Littlefinger did when he volunteered to go to Highgarden on behalf of King Joffrey - then it might be warranted to be somewhat suspicious. But there is nothing of this sort there ... nor any indication at Winterfell that Mance has ulterior motives or another agenda besides saving Arya.