If faegon's coloring (hair,skin tone, eyes) don't match to aegon's how many alive characters can know that?

[Jaenara Belarys]

26 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

What part do you want me to elaborate on?  The basic idea is fairly simple.  Aegon VI really was smuggled to safety, as Varys told Kevan.  However, at some time after that there was a baby swap.   Quentyn is Aegon and Aegon is Quentyn.

 

Except, we can debunk your so called "theory" in three seconds. Tell me, you say that Aegon had Valyrian features. Then why, pray tell,  does Quentyn in Meereen not have any Valyrian features?

[Mister Smikes]

6 minutes ago, divica said:

That should be very unlikely. It would make ilyrio and varys around 60.

What's unlikely about that?  Sounds right to me.  Maybe even older.

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And if doran didn't think quentin was his son he wouldn't send him to danny because who marries danny has 3 dragons.

It was a long shot, and Quentyn thinks he is Doran's son, which makes him loyal, and useful.

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And it would have been unlikely that the dragons turned agains quentyn if he was a targ.

Only Rhaegal turned on Quentyn.  Viserion seemed to be responding.  Otherwise Quentyn would have died 3 seconds after he hit Viserion in the face with a whip.

[Lord Varys]

Again, nobody will truly remember how one-year-old Aegon looked like over fifteen years later. That is impossible. His entire physique including facial features changed.

Unless he had a visible birthmark in the face which was already very prominent while he was a baby nobody would be able to see a difference between a real adult Aegon and a fake adult Aegon ... assuming the adult Aegon in question looks like a Valyrian.

Oh, and the eye colors of babies do change. Many people are born with blue eyes but the eyes change.

The same goes for hair coloring. In fact, it is actually kind of ridiculous that anyone would say 'But baby Aegon's eyes/hair were slightly different than your hair, Prince Aegon ... I don't believe you are Rhaegar's son.'

The crucial thing here is personal testimony of trustworthy people. Jon Connington will tell the world that his Aegon is Rhaegar's son. And if they are going to believe it they will believe it because Jon says so, not because some weirdo hypothetical 'baby Aegon experts' were 'confirming' he was the real deal.

In fact, there aren't even any characters out there who could do that kind of thing that we know of. Aegon's parents are dead, we don't have any names of Rhaegar's servants and other folks who might have been in close contact with his children (wetnurses and midwives, say). And if such people came forth they could be dismissed rather easily considering they were commoners with no political power or influence.

[Jaenara Belarys]

5 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Only Rhaegal turned on Quentyn.  Viserion seemed to be responding.  Otherwise Quentyn would have died 3 seconds after he hit Viserion in the face with a whip.

Oh God, this theory again. What does it matter if Viserion did or didn't respond? Quentyn is dead. Why does it matter?

[divica]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Again, nobody will truly remember how one-year-old Aegon looked like over fifteen years later. That is impossible. His entire physique including facial features changed.

In asoiaf people remember all the time how long dead people looked.

Barristan remembers what ashara looked like even after a lot of years.

Ned remembers lyanna a lot.

Jon con remembers rhaegar.

Aemon remembers egg.

I have no idea what his physique changing has to do with people remembering the color of his hair, eyes or skin. 

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, and the eye colors of babies do change. Many people are born with blue eyes but the eyes change.

The eyes of babies with several months of age change? I am no expert but that is not my experience and a poster above seems to agree...

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The same goes for hair coloring. In fact, it is actually kind of ridiculous that anyone would say 'But baby Aegon's eyes/hair were slightly different than your hair, Prince Aegon ... I don't believe you are Rhaegar's son.'

Why is weird that people THINK that? 

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The crucial thing here is personal testimony of trustworthy people. Jon Connington will tell the world that his Aegon is Rhaegar's son. And if they are going to believe it they will believe it because Jon says so, not because some weirdo hypothetical 'baby Aegon experts' were 'confirming' he was the real deal.

In fact, there aren't even any characters out there who could do that kind of thing that we know of. Aegon's parents are dead, we don't have any names of Rhaegar's servants and other folks who might have been in close contact with his children (wetnurses and midwives, say). And if such people came forth they could be dismissed rather easily considering they were commoners with no political power or influence.

What are you talking about? 

Jaime lannister was near baby aegon until the sack. The same can be said about the recently deceased pycelle. Barristan could have been near him for a long time. At least these people are well known and nobody would be able to doubt they knew baby aegon.

[divica]

16 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

What's unlikely about that?  Sounds right to me.  Maybe even older.

Because someone would coment about their age as they do barristan.

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, divica said:

In asoiaf people remember all the time how long dead people looked.

Barristan remembers what ashara looked like even after a lot of years.

Ned remembers lyanna a lot.

Jon con remembers rhaegar.

Aemon remembers egg.

I guess you can also tell us how accurately they remember them. Go on. Do remember folks who are dead for nearly twenty years accurately to the point to tell them they are not the baby you remember or something along those lines.

People don't necessarily recognize their own spouses as babies when they are shown pictures of them while they were babies ... how do you think anyone should compare adult Aegon to a mental image of baby Aegon? That wouldn't work.

6 minutes ago, divica said:

I have no idea what his physique changing has to do with people remembering the color of his hair, eyes or skin. 

Hair and eye color of adult Aegon seem to match what we know of baby Aegon. Skin color is your own thing that never has come up so far in the books.

6 minutes ago, divica said:

Jaime lannister was near baby aegon until the sack. The same can be said about the recently deceased pycelle. Barristan could have been near him for a long time. At least these people are well known and nobody would be able to doubt they knew baby aegon.

Being physically near doesn't mean Barristan or Jaime or Pycelle or anyone of the court actually spent time with a one-year-old prince. He would have been in the nursery with his mother and her ladies and servant,

I mean, you are aware that so far nobody realized that Jon switched Dalla's babe for Gilly's, right? How was that possible with Stannis and Mel and all those queen's men being present at Castle Black? Surely they would have noticed the child looked different, right?

And what about Sam - why didn't Sam immediately realize that Gilly's child was no longer her child? Didn't he spend a lot of time with Gilly and her son while they were walking to the Wall? Shouldn't he have realized immediately what was going on?

Bottom line is - most folks don't spend much time with one-year-olds, nor do they watch them all that closely when they are spending time with them.

[Mister Smikes]

38 minutes ago, divica said:

Because someone would coment about their age as they do barristan.

Barristan is a professional warrior -- the equivalent of a professional athlete.  So yeah, people are going to comment on his age.

Varys is an effeminate courtier, who is also an expert in the use of makeup and disguise and who likes to powder his face.  Even so, one would hardly say he is in a better state of preservation than, say, Septa Lemore, who is "over 40".  HIs baldness makes it hard to judge by counting his white hairs.  He has been in KL as master of whisperers for maybe 20 years or so?

Illyrio, who again is a rich merchant and no longer a professional warrior (he was once a fit bravo, though), does comment that age has turned him into a wreck of his former self.  Certainly Barristan is better preserved as far as being athletically fit is concerned.

[divica]

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I guess you can also tell us how accurately they remember them. Go on. Do remember folks who are dead for nearly twenty years accurately to the point to tell them they are not the baby you remember or something along those lines.

People don't necessarily recognize their own spouses as babies when they are shown pictures of them while they were babies ... how do you think anyone should compare adult Aegon to a mental image of baby Aegon? That wouldn't work.

Actually pretty well. Barristan and jon con for example still remember the eyes after almost 20 years. 

And I don't understand what you are saying. I am not talking about facial features. Just the coloring of the eyes, skin and hair. And If baby aegon had deep puple eyes, fair hair and skin darker than normal targs then if faegon has dark blue/light lilac eyes, fair hair and fair skin then people that knew baby aegon should doubt if faegon is in fact baby aegon.

34 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Hair and eye color of adult Aegon seem to match what we know of baby Aegon. Skin color is your own thing that never has come up so far in the books.

What!?

You do know that the martells have typically olive skin and targs pale skin. grrm does mention the skin color of several characters. what books are you reading?

And where have you seen the color of baby aegon's eyes?

[divica]

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Being physically near doesn't mean Barristan or Jaime or Pycelle or anyone of the court actually spent time with a one-year-old prince. He would have been in the nursery with his mother and her ladies and servant,

I mean, you are aware that so far nobody realized that Jon switched Dalla's babe for Gilly's, right? How was that possible with Stannis and Mel and all those queen's men being present at Castle Black? Surely they would have noticed the child looked different, right?

And what about Sam - why didn't Sam immediately realize that Gilly's child was no longer her child? Didn't he spend a lot of time with Gilly and her son while they were walking to the Wall? Shouldn't he have realized immediately what was going on?

Bottom line is - most folks don't spend much time with one-year-olds, nor do they watch them all that closely when they are spending time with them.

Again, have you read the books? Because val notices the trade and says that mel also does know about what jon did.

About sam I don't remember, but given the amount of times you are wrong when talking about the books I would guess he also knows.

And if someone is near some important baby they would notice his hair and skin color. And in asoiaf world they pay a lot of atention to the eyes so that is also very likely. I don't know why you think it is stange that people tasked with the welfare of the baby prince actually look at the baby prince.

[divica]

15 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Barristan is a professional warrior -- the equivalent of a professional athlete.  So yeah, people are going to comment on his age.

Varys is an effeminate courtier, who is also an expert in the use of makeup and disguise and who likes to powder his face.  Even so, one would hardly say he is in a better state of preservation than, say, Septa Lemore, who is "over 40".  HIs baldness makes it hard to judge by counting his white hairs.  He has been in KL as master of whisperers for maybe 20 years or so?

Illyrio, who again is a rich merchant and no longer a professional warrior (he was once a fit bravo, though), does comment that age has turned him into a wreck of his former self.  Certainly Barristan is better preserved as far as being athletically fit is concerned.

But nobody thinks of varys and illirio as grandfathers.

And while ilirio seems over emotional about faegon why would he never visit or mention arianne and trystane?

[Mister Smikes]

1 hour ago, divica said:

Martells are suposed to be olive skined and targs fair skined.

Trystane and Arianne are described as olive skinned.

Oberyn, Doran, Elia, Quentyn and Aegon are never described as olive skinned.

1 hour ago, divica said:

Therefore a baby between the 2 houses can have skin tone between fair and olive.

That applies just as much to Quentyn as it does to Aegon or fAegon.  But the issue is academic because none of the three are ever described as olive skinned.   Nor are the sand snakes.

1 hour ago, divica said:

If baby aegon had a tarker tone of skin and faegon is fair then it would be a significant diference.

The question is academic.  We have no suggestion that one was darker than the other.

1 hour ago, divica said:

So if you are correct it means that the eye color of a few months old baby aegon shouldn't change.

?? That's not what I said.  Nor is it true.  The eye color of a few-months old baby can change.  More rarely, it can change at even older ages.

1 hour ago, divica said:

So people that were in contact with him until the sacking like jaime lannister would be able to compare the eye color of aegon and faegon.

Do you usually remember the eye color of babies you glimpsed 16 years ago?  I sure don't.

1 hour ago, divica said:

And I am obviously talking about natural skin tone and not tans...

Yeah, in theory that is true, but so what?  Are you suggesting we undress fAegon so we can assess the paleness of his loins and the sharpness of his tan lines?  IIRC, he's never described as tanned or olive skinned.  Neither is Quentyn.   So what is the point of debating the distinction between these two things, or what tests we must employ to see the difference?

[divica]

5 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Trystane and Arianne are described as olive skinned.

Oberyn, Doran, Elia, Quentyn and Aegon are never described as olive skinned.

Given that trystane and arianne are olive skinned it is probable that it come from their father and therefore doran should be olive skinned.

5 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

?? That's not what I said.  Nor is it true.  The eye color of a few-months old baby can change.  More rarely, it can change at even older ages.

You talked about it being rare after 9 months. So ok, a baby close to 1 year should change his eye color. At least it isn't usual.

7 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

That applies just as much to Quentyn as it does to Aegon or fAegon.  But the issue is academic because none of the three are ever described as olive skinned.   Nor are the sand snakes.

 

7 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

The question is academic.  We have no suggestion that one was darker than the other.

We haven't had a description yet. But if the skin color of the baby is diferent from faegon then some character that knows both can mention it.

9 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Do you usually remember the eye color of babies you glimpsed 16 years ago?  I sure don't.

Characters like jaime, pycele or barristan might have spent a fair amount of time with baby aegon. And people care about eye color in asoiaf.

10 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Yeah, in theory that is true, but so what?  Are you suggesting we undress fAegon so we can assess the paleness of his loins and the sharpness of his tan lines?  IIRC, he's never described as tanned or olive skinned.  Neither is Quentyn.   So what is the point of debating the distinction between these two things, or what tests we must employ to see the difference?

No. I am sugesting people aren't always tanned. I have no idea why you would want to see the loins of someone for this. Seems a really weird discussion.

[Lord Varys]

26 minutes ago, divica said:

Actually pretty well. Barristan and jon con for example still remember the eyes after almost 20 years.

Barristan and Jon remember well the eyes of baby Aegon? Where exactly do they do that. They remember Rhaegar ... but that doesn't mean they remember him accurately as he was ... and neither that they remember a baby the way it truly was or in a way that would allow them to compare his looks to those of an adult.

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And I don't understand what you are saying. I am not talking about facial features. Just the coloring of the eyes, skin and hair. And If baby aegon had deep puple eyes, fair hair and skin darker than normal targs then if faegon has dark blue/light lilac eyes, fair hair and fair skin then people that knew baby aegon should doubt if faegon is in fact baby aegon.

LOL, right, because none of that could change over time, right? But - you know - nobody ever said that baby Aegon had darker skin than 'normal Targs', right?

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You do know that the martells have typically olive skin and targs pale skin. grrm does mention the skin color of several characters. what books are you reading?

The issue is that you just insert a criteria for differentiation that's not in the books so far. You could just as well talk about 'Targaryen ears' or some other features. Nobody ever thought about Aegon's skin being an issue to figure out who he actually was. And you know what - Jon Connington would have realized that difference right then when he was given Aegon. He knew both baby Aegon and the boy he later raised.

15 minutes ago, divica said:

Again, have you read the books? Because val notices the trade and says that mel also does know about what jon did.

Eventually, Val realizes. Not at first. Samwell never realizes what's going on, they tell him eventually.

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And if someone is near some important baby they would notice his hair and skin color. And in asoiaf world they pay a lot of atention to the eyes so that is also very likely. I don't know why you think it is stange that people tasked with the welfare of the baby prince actually look at the baby prince.

The people you mention wouldn't have been tasked with the welfare of Prince Aegon. They were tasked with protecting the king and the royal family and to rule the Realm. They wouldn't look twice at a one-year-old boy.

And they wouldn't remember what they saw nearly twenty years later. That's not so difficult to understand. They would have never known that they would one day have to decide whether some adult guy they meet is a baby they saw occasionally nearly twenty years ago.

It is ludicrous to assume this is even going to be an issue. What's more likely, in fact, is that Jaime ends up confirming that Jon's Aegon is Rhaegar's Aegon because he will want to believe that. He will very much want to believe that he did not, after all, fail Elia and her children (and thus Rhaegar) completely.

[Mister Smikes]

28 minutes ago, divica said:

But nobody thinks of varys and illirio as grandfathers.

Eunuchs are rarely grandfathers.  And I think the phrase applied to Illyrio was "rotting sea cow".

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And while ilirio seems over emotional about faegon why would he never visit or mention arianne and trystane?

You mean other than the fact that one is nearby in Norvos with his daughter, and the others are half a world away with the other parent?  Anyway, how do you know that he never, ever, ever visits them or mentions them?

[Jaenara Belarys]

On a slightly related note, do any of you think that fAegon will ride Rhaegal or Viserion?

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

On a slightly related note, do any of you think that fAegon will ride Rhaegal or Viserion?

It is possible, but I'm not going to speculate who is going to ride a dragon when/if they finally reach Westeros. Because then there are all bets off ... so much stuff will have happened that we won't really recognize the story from the point we are at now.

I expect Tyrion to end up with Viserion, so he is not likely to have another rider unless/if/when Tyrion dies ... which will only happen - if it happens - at the very end of the series, so not very likely for him to be ever ridden by Aegon.

Rhaegal might end up with Jon Snow at the very end ... but whether this means he will have Aegon as a rider in the meantime I don't know.

I also don't think that Rhaegal will have that many riders. He will have his first rider in Slaver's Bay so they can even move him to Westeros - they cannot really transport dragons by ship, not when they are this large. Then that rider would have to die for Aegon to be able to claim him, and Aegon would have to die in turn for Rhaegal to pass on to Jon. I guess three riders is possible but it shouldn't be more than three.

If the first rider was Ben Plumm then chances are good that he would die eventually ... but if it were Victarion - and if Rhaegal were to pass from Vic to Euron - then chances that Aegon or Jon might eventually claim Rhaegal would be exceedingly rare because, especially, Euron is likely to stick around till the very end.

Vic could die earlier, I guess, but it would still be very difficult for Rhaegal to pass from Vic to Aegon of all people.

Brown Ben as a dragonrider could defect from team Dany to team Aegon for some reason ... or he could try to do that and be killed so that Aegon can claim a dragon of his own. That is a scenario one could see, I guess. But if a dragon were to end up with the Greyjoys it is not likely to quickly switch back to the Targaryens.

[Jaenara Belarys]

I hope Victarion and fAegon don't get dragons.

Zaldrizes buzdari iksos daor. 

[Mister Smikes]

1 hour ago, divica said:

Given that trystane and arianne are olive skinned it is probable that it come from their father and therefore doran should be olive skinned.

Not necessarily.  Light skinned people can pass on dark-skinned genes.  And maybe Tristane and Arianne spend more time in the sun than their decrepit old dad.  But even if I allow that Doran may be "olive skinned", what is the next step?  Where exactly are you taking this argument?

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You talked about it being rare after 9 months. So ok, a baby close to 1 year should change his eye color. At least it isn't usual.

Are we agreeing that Aegon's eye color may have changed.  If so, then great.

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We haven't had a description yet. But if the skin color of the baby is diferent from faegon then some character that knows both can mention it.

So this is purely speculative, and hypothetical?  In that case I have no argument.

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Characters like jaime, pycele or barristan might have spent a fair amount of time with baby aegon.

"Might have" is the operative word.  And none of them have met him yet, and it is yet to be determined if they ever will.

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I have no idea why you would want to see the loins of someone for this. 

Because that's where the sun don't shine.  You're the one who wanted to make an issue about the subtle distinction between so-called "olive skin" and a so-called "tan".  But I'm happy to drop the subject, since it is purely speculative, and there is no evidence whatsoever that fAegon is too light or too dark to be the real Aegon.

[Mister Smikes]

1 hour ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

On a slightly related note, do any of you think that fAegon will ride Rhaegal or Viserion?

Well I don't.  But that's mainly because I suspect that fAegon (or his team) may get one or more dragons from another source.