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divica

If faegon's coloring (hair,skin tone, eyes) don't match to aegon's how many alive characters can know that?

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Barristan and Jon remember well the eyes of baby Aegon? Where exactly do they do that. They remember Rhaegar ... but that doesn't mean they remember him accurately as he was ... and neither that they remember a baby the way it truly was or in a way that would allow them to compare his looks to those of an adult.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And they wouldn't remember what they saw nearly twenty years later. That's not so difficult to understand. They would have never known that they would one day have to decide whether some adult guy they meet is a baby they saw occasionally nearly twenty years ago.

Barristan remembers ashara's eyes and jon con rhaegar's eyes even after 20 years. The same amount of time passed. Why would it be weird if they remember something about a baby from 17 years ago?

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, right, because none of that could change over time, right? But - you know - nobody ever said that baby Aegon had darker skin than 'normal Targs', right?

I know. And I am not saying he had. 

I am asking IF  there are any characters that might know if baby aegon had a diferent skin tone from faegon. And if varys is eliminating these characters because he killed pycelle recently.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The issue is that you just insert a criteria for differentiation that's not in the books so far. You could just as well talk about 'Targaryen ears' or some other features. Nobody ever thought about Aegon's skin being an issue to figure out who he actually was. And you know what - Jon Connington would have realized that difference right then when he was given Aegon. He knew both baby Aegon and the boy he later raised.

He knew baby aegon? Are you sure he ever saw him?

Because with rhaegar missing jon con could have gone to his castle instead of remaining in KL. Even after being named hand he seems to have spent a very short amount of time in KL because he left to lead the war. So is it so unlikely he never saw the baby?

But nobody ever talked about targ or martell hears. On the other hand we know that the martells and targs have very diferent skin tones. Therefore baby aegon's skin tone might be diferent from the classical valyrian color that faegon seems to have.

And I am not saying anything about his skin color. Just asking if there are characters capable of knowing the diferences and if they have been dying recently.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The people you mention wouldn't have been tasked with the welfare of Prince Aegon.

The maester responsable for the health of the people in the red keep wouldn't care about the welfare of a prince?

The kingsguard sworn to protect the king and royal familly wouldn't care for the welfare of a prince?

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

They wouldn't look twice at a one-year-old boy.

I don't know how much a maester pays atention to a newborn prince (it should be a bit) but the kinsguard are garanteed to see aegon constantly in KL.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

It is ludicrous to assume this is even going to be an issue. What's more likely, in fact, is that Jaime ends up confirming that Jon's Aegon is Rhaegar's Aegon because he will want to believe that. He will very much want to believe that he did not, after all, fail Elia and her children (and thus Rhaegar) completely.

That is extremely unlikely. If faegon is a fake jaime is a fairly inteligent and cynical character that knows pretty well all the involved people that might have lied about aegon's death (varys, tywin, the mountain, baby aegon, elia). If it is possible that it is a lie jaime will suspect it.

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26 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Not necessarily.  Light skinned people can pass on dark-skinned genes.  And maybe Tristane and Arianne spend more time in the sun than their decrepit old dad.  But even if I allow that Doran may be "olive skinned", what is the next step?  Where exactly are you taking this argument?

 

26 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Because that's where the sun don't shine.  You're the one who wanted to make an issue about the subtle distinction between so-called "olive skin" and a so-called "tan".  But I'm happy to drop the subject, since it is purely speculative, and there is no evidence whatsoever that fAegon is too light or too dark to be the real Aegon.

BEcause to me a tan is a temporary color while olive skin is something permanent. 

But the point isn't to say that baby aegon had olive skin.

MY POINT IS IF HE HAD A DIFERENT SKIN, EYE OR HAIR COLOR to faegon if there are any characters that may know it and if they have been dying recently like happened to pycelle.

29 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Are we agreeing that Aegon's eye color may have changed.  If so, then great.

NOOO

I meant to say that a baby close to 1 year shouldn't chage his eye color. At least it isn't something normal.

 

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16 minutes ago, divica said:

Barristan remembers ashara's eyes and jon con rhaegar's eyes even after 20 years. The same amount of time passed. Why would it be weird if they remember something about a baby from 17 years ago?

Yes, it would, because babies have different eyes and different hair than adults. Nobody does compare the eyes/hair of a one-year-old to that of a grown man.

Also, what Barristan and Rhaegar remember are mental images of long-dead people. They believe them to be accurate ... but are they, actually? Nobody knows.

How accurate is your memory of a loved one who is dead for nearly twenty years? Especially without the help of photographs?

16 minutes ago, divica said:

I am asking IF  there are any characters that might know if baby aegon had a diferent skin tone from faegon. And if varys is eliminating these characters because he killed pycelle recently.

Pycelle isn't a character who was intimately familiar with Aegon, to our knowledge. Aegon was born on Dragonstone, not in the Red Keep, so the maester familiar with Aegon would have been the old Dragonstone maester before Cressen. No idea who that was or whether this person is still alive.

Pycelle may have taken care of the babe if it was ever sick while Elia and the children were in KL. But we don't know that this was ever necessary.

How often does Pycelle interact with Sansa/Arya while they are in KL? Effectively only when they are sick. He would have also seen them at court, but babies don't walk around.

Varys killed Pycelle and Kevan because of political reasons.

16 minutes ago, divica said:

He knew baby aegon? Are you sure he ever saw him?

Because with rhaegar missing jon con could have gone to his castle instead of remaining in KL. Even after being named hand he seems to have spent a very short amount of time in KL because he left to lead the war. So is it so unlikely he never saw the baby?

Jon was a close friend of Rhaegar's ... he is more likely to have seen his friend's firstborn son than the people you think may have seen him (KG and the Grand Maester). Jon may have been with Rhaegar when Aegon was born, and he may have visited Elia later when she was in the Red Keep with the children while he was Hand. He also went to war, but he was also in the capital. He would also have been there before Aerys II made him Hand, so he would have had ample time to interact with Elia and the children.

16 minutes ago, divica said:

But nobody ever talked about targ or martell hears. On the other hand we know that the martells and targs have very diferent skin tones. Therefore baby aegon's skin tone might be diferent from the classical valyrian color that faegon seems to have.

Actually, we don't even know that Princess Rhaenys had olive skin. She could have just have had her mother's hair and eyes. Baelor Breakspear, the son of Daeron II resembling his mother, also didn't have olive skin ... and neither did Valarr, who resembled his father.

Neither is Elia Martell ever described as olive-skinned.

16 minutes ago, divica said:

The maester responsable for the health of the people in the red keep wouldn't care about the welfare of a prince?

Not in a sense that would necessitate them to interact with the babe closely. That's a job for women and servants.

16 minutes ago, divica said:

The kingsguard sworn to protect the king and royal familly wouldn't care for the welfare of a prince?

Not in a sense that would necessitate them to interact with the babe closely. That's a job for women and servants.

16 minutes ago, divica said:

I don't know how much a maester pays atention to a newborn prince (it should be a bit) but the kinsguard are garanteed to see aegon constantly in KL.

Nope, they would attend the king, not the king's grandchildren. Especially since Aerys II didn't actually seem to have appointed a KG to the protection of his Dornish-smelling grandchildren ... much less Jaime or Barristan, the two surviving members of Aerys' KG. Jaime, we know, was always at the Mad King's side because he wanted to keep him close.

In the end Jaime was also sort of responsible for the protection of Rhaegar's family, but he didn't oversee that personally.

Bottom line is - all those people are like the black brothers and queen's men guarding Val and Mance's son who failed to realize that there had been a baby swap.

16 minutes ago, divica said:

That is extremely unlikely. If faegon is a fake jaime is a fairly inteligent and cynical character that knows pretty well all the involved people that might have lied about aegon's death (varys, tywin, the mountain, baby aegon, elia). If it is possible that it is a lie jaime will suspect it.

Nope, that's actually pretty likely since Jaime's entire development since AFfC revolves around his Rhaegar guilt complex. That started with his weirwood dream in ASoS. The thing that really got to him in the dream was to have failed to protect Rhaegar's wife and children.

Jaime will also be quite aware that Varys could have saved Aegon. He was there and he knows the Red Keep. He used Varys and the tunnels himself to get Tyrion out of the castle.

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15 minutes ago, divica said:

BEcause to me a tan is a temporary color while olive skin is something permanent. 

99% of the time that a person is described as "olive skinned" the person using the phrase is not in a position to make such an assessment.  He is merely describing what he sees.  It may refer to a person who lives in a southern clime, spends alot of time in the sun and (perhaps in part due to genetics) has the ability to tan easily.

15 minutes ago, divica said:

But the point isn't to say that baby aegon had olive skin.

MY POINT IS IF HE HAD A DIFERENT SKIN, EYE OR HAIR COLOR to faegon if there are any characters that may know it and if they have been dying recently like happened to pycelle.

Right.   So, assuming the above, we have the following purely hypothetical scenario:

--------------------------x

JAIME:  You can't be Baby Aegon.  He was fair skinned.  I remember.  And you're olive skinned.

FAEGON:  I'm not olive skinned.  I'm just well tanned because I spend alot of time in the sun.

JAIME:  Oh yeah!  Well then pull down your pants, and let's check your butt.

FAEGON:  I also spent alot of time skinny dipping in the Rhoyne.

 

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4 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

Okay, I can accept this general premise, but fAegon is supposed to look Valyrian right?

From the books, we know that Kevan knew him to have fair hair.  From an ancient SSM GRRM said that Aegon looked "more like a Targaryen" and Rhaenys looked "more like a Martell".

4 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

like naturally he had white hair and dark purple eyes?

He might have golden hair.  But we have no specifics, except that his hair was "fair".

4 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

Mellario is Novoshi, but I can't find any evidence of her being racially Valyrian,

Well, there are clues suggesting Lemore may be Faegon's mom; clues suggesting Faegon may be a Blackfyre; and clues suggesting Lemore may be Mellario.  Put them all together, and Mellario might be a Blackfyre.

Additionally, the World Book says that Norvosi Noblewomen shave their heads and wear wigs.   Which is a convenient custom for hiding Valyrian heritage, if one is the last female Blackfyre descendant and want to keep a low profile.

4 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

and her other two children are both physically Dornish looking.

No mystery there.  Sometimes a child takes after mom; sometimes after dad.

4 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

I suppose the age time table does work though since Quint was born in the year of the false spring...

Yup.

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1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

Well I don't.  But that's mainly because I suspect that fAegon (or his team) may get one or more dragons from another source.

OK. Thank you.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

How accurate is your memory of a loved one who is dead for nearly twenty years? Especially without the help of photographs?

Medieval France had the famous Martin Guerre case, in which a missing husband returned after 8 years, sending the entire village into a dispute over whether Martin was really Martin.  Of course, the funny thing there is that when the real Martin Guerre showed up, all doubts were removed, and the impostor exposed.  Memories, however faulty, were good enough to recognize the real man when he appeared.

Of course, no babies in that case.

Edited by Mister Smikes

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Except, we can debunk your so called "theory" in three seconds. Tell me, you say that Aegon had Valyrian features.

I say that he had fair hair.  (Maybe golden; maybe a paler blonde -- I don't know.)  If I were to guess (and really this is only a guess) I would be tempted to guess that he had dark blue or dark purple eyes early in his infancy, such as the day he was presented at court.  Those are the only Valyrian features that we know (or can guess) that he had.  And it is more than enough for me to say that he looked "more like a Targaryen" than his sister Rhaenys.

Quote

Then why, pray tell,  does Quentyn in Meereen not have any Valyrian features?

Already addressed.  Children change with age.  His fair hair may have turned brown.  His dark blue or purple eyes may have turned brown (even if we assume they were not always brown, which they may well have been).

Any broader interpretation of "no Valyrian features" goes far beyond the evidence.  None of us have photos of Rhaegar and Quentyn so we can compare all of Quentyn's features to those of Rhaegar.

But Quentyn does dream of fire and blood.  That's a Valyrian feature, of sorts.

Quentyn is described as having hair the color of newly turned earth.  Since newly turned earth comes in a variety of shades, it is anyone's guess what this means.  Nowadays, a mix of hues, such as brown hair with gold highlights, is called "dirty brown".  Maybe GRRM is suggesting something along these lines.  Or maybe not.

20 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Oh God, this theory again. What does it matter if Viserion did or didn't respond? Quentyn is dead. Why does it matter?

Why so angry?  It's just a theory, and it might be wrong.  If you don't like it we can agree to disagree until the book comes out.

But, to answer your question, I don't think Frog is dead.  I don't think the burnt-beyond-recognition man who died on Dany's bed was Frog.  I think that Frog and Viserion are spending quality time together in Viserion's lair, a freshly abandoned pyramid.

The Quentyn is Alive theory is older than the Quentyn is Aegon theory.  As I recall, the Quentyn is Alive theory made people angry too.  They asked, what is the point of Quentyn being alive and a Dragonrider?  Well, if Frog turns out to be Aegon VI, the rightful ruler of the Seven Kingdoms, the Prince that was Promised, and on the the 3 heads of the Dragon, that rather answers that question, does it not?

But again, it is only a theory.

Edited by Mister Smikes

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1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

Medieval France had the famous Martin Guerre case, in which a missing husband returned after 8 years, sending the entire village into a dispute over whether Martin was really Martin.  Of course, the funny thing there is that when the real Martin Guerre showed up, all doubts were removed, and the impostor exposed.  Memories, however faulty, were good enough to recognize the real man when he appeared.

Of course, no babies in that case.

That is an interesting case, and it shows that in a setting where people don't really have photographs and the like even a couple of years are enough for some guy trying to impersonate somebody in that man's village.

But it is completely different with a baby or even a child.

If Aegon had allegedly been killed in the same manner, say, at the age of six or so, then people would still not be able to say twenty years later whether the guy who claimed to be Aegon wasn't Aegon.

You also have that kind of thing with the folks impersonating the Princes in the Tower or George himself using this thing again with folks challenging Aegon III and/or his successors by claiming they were Daeron the Daring ... who died in his mid-teens.

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Posted (edited)

Jaime and Barristan were Kingguards. They may remember a different eye color or whatever. But they didn't likely pay much attention. Pycelle, or any maester would have, if they had the care of the children. Was there another maester in charge all Elia and her children? Or a wet nurse or any maid in the service of Elia? I doubt all these people are dead now. Someone with suspicion could search for them.

But I don't think the story needs a formal exposure of Aegon's imposture. Dany (likely) will kill him. True of fake, it won't matter. And I kinda like the idea of fans forever arguing, even if we have kind of enough evidences by Varys and Illrio machinations. Like planning Viserys and Dothrakis invasion of Westeros. Not something for the love of the Targaryens or the people.

Edited by BalerionTheCat

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3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

But I don't think the story needs a formal exposure of Aegon's imposture. Dany (likely) will kill him. True of fake, it won't matter. And I kinda like the idea of fans forever arguing, even if we have kind of enough evidences by Varys and Illrio machinations. Like planning Viserys and Dothrakis invasion of Westeros. Not something for the love of the Targaryens or the people.

To me, a fake aegon plot would be odd, if it never mattered whether he was fake or not.  But I suppose your attitude goes hand in hand with the assumption that there is no real aegon.  But did not Varys tell a dying man that baby aegon was smuggled out of KL?  There's a bit too much detail there for a lie told to a dying man.

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1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

To me, a fake aegon plot would be odd, if it never mattered whether he was fake or not.  But I suppose your attitude goes hand in hand with the assumption that there is no real aegon.  But did not Varys tell a dying man that baby aegon was smuggled out of KL?  There's a bit too much detail there for a lie told to a dying man.

He was probably rehearsing his story. Testing how good it will look to everyone That the man was dying doesn't matter. fAegon and the Blackfyre have been discussed endlessly. And it will continue unless GRRM puts an end to the speculations, in-book or otherwise. No argument seems conclusive for everyone.

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34 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

He was probably rehearsing his story. Testing how good it will look to everyone That the man was dying doesn't matter. fAegon and the Blackfyre have been discussed endlessly. And it will continue unless GRRM puts an end to the speculations, in-book or otherwise. No argument seems conclusive for everyone.

That Varys was lying to Kevan isn't that likely. He has that deep voice again which indicates he is telling the truth, like he did back when he was telling Tyrion the story of his castration.

However, he doesn't actually say the Aegon he is talking about, the Aegon who is here, is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen.

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On 4/30/2021 at 3:14 PM, divica said:

In AgoT we learn that robert's kids all had dark hair and most of ned's kids have simillar looks.

We know that if r+l=j both jon and rhaenys favor their mother looks.

So despite grrm saying that Aegon looked more targaryen doesn't mean that he looked like a complete targaryen as faegon does. 

And we can't forget that even targaryens can have diferent looks. Like purple or lilac eyes. Or silver or blondish hair.

Therefore who could know about aegon's appearance and still be alive? And has varys been eliminating these people?

Barristan, Jaime, and Cersei would know the appearance of the real Prince Aegon.  But even so, a child's looks can change over time.  Young Griff will have trouble in tricking people who he wants them to believe he is. He will convince some and they will believe.  And then Daenerys Targaryen, the real heir to Westeros and the last of the dragons, will expose his lie.  

Physical appearance is very, very important.  It is the best they had before DNA testing.  Any claimant who does not have those widely known physical traits referred to as the Blood of the Dragon will have a very hard time convincing anybody.   

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

However, he doesn't actually say the Aegon he is talking about, the Aegon who is here, is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen.

I re-read the passage. Varys only says "Aegon". Not a lie then. IIRC, the story of Aegon's rescue was only told by Aegon himself to Tyrion.But I suppose, at some point, Varys will have to sing the same song.

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5 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I re-read the passage. Varys only says "Aegon". Not a lie then. IIRC, the story of Aegon's rescue was only told by Aegon himself to Tyrion.But I suppose, at some point, Varys will have to sing the same song.

Then he might not have the same deep voice indicating he is dropping all pretense and telling the truth.

What Varys did tell the truth about is why he killed Kevan and what the point of the Aegon plan is. This is something we should not doubt. The Epilogue is the chapter where we get our deepest insight into Varys' character and motivation so far, and it might be that we'll never get this deep an insight since the entire point of the setting there was to have Varys talk to a dying man to whom he would open up to a point he is not likely to do when talking to a POV who isn't dying.

And this kind of setting won't be repeated all that often.

I'm sure Aegon was told only a pretty nice version of his rescue story - if it actually happened - since the idea that a poor Kingslander child died for him clearly is a story that is supposed to teach him to care for his people. The truth might be more ugly - Varys switching Aegon with some slave child he acquired via Illyrio.

But then - when time was of the essence Varys certainly would have the means and resources to find a young child in the city which more or less resembled Aegon. Jon could replace Mance's son with Gilly's and the men protecting the 'wildling prince' didn't realize it.

Something like that shows us how easy it would have been Varys to replace the baby if Elia and whoever else was caring for Aegon were onboard with the plan.

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3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

He was probably rehearsing his story. Testing how good it will look to everyone

Could be.  This clue can be explained away.  Some clues are red herrings.  Or lies.

3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

That the man was dying doesn't matter.

It matters a little, I think.  If it turns out that there is a real Aegon (regardless of whether Young Griff turns out to be fake) you will not be able to say that GRRM did not drop you a clue.

3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

fAegon and the Blackfyre have been discussed endlessly. And it will continue unless GRRM puts an end to the speculations, in-book or otherwise. No argument seems conclusive for everyone.

Maybe it will turn out that both are true:  That fAegon is fake and a Blackfyre ... and also that there is a real Aegon.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

What Varys did tell the truth about is why he killed Kevan and what the point of the Aegon plan is.

I've no doubt Varys words to Kevan were heart felt. Even that he was sorry he had to die. He and Illiro have read Aegon V story and are trying to follow his steps. Like some others, they are trying to build a better world. But I believe, one where the Blackfyres are replacing the Targaryens. Whatever the cost, chaos, war and Dothraki rampage if needed.

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I doubt his looks will ever make anyone doubt he is Aegon. 

Baelor Breakspear had dornish look, but his brothers seemed to be fully Valyrians from the outside. Not that it makes any different, even a dornish with olive skin would be pretty pinkish (or redish, Idk how to say that in english) due to being a literal newborn. And babies also don't really have their eyes too often only after 3 months or so. Either way, noone could ever claim Aegon is fake because he saw the baby once. 

Neither looking young for his age is a problem. It happens pretty often.

What could give him legitimacy are dragons or the support of the nobility, not that he has blue eyes as Aegon had. Since he has the Valyrian looks, I doubt this could ever become a problem.

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45 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I've no doubt Varys words to Kevan were heart felt. Even that he was sorry he had to die. He and Illiro have read Aegon V story and are trying to follow his steps. Like some others, they are trying to build a better world. But I believe, one where the Blackfyres are replacing the Targaryens. Whatever the cost, chaos, war and Dothraki rampage if needed.

I'm not sure a Blackfyre agenda is really all that important. It could be that they have this background but any Blackfyre partisans should have been sort of happy when Robert toppled the Targaryens and once Viserys III and Daenerys were in exile, too, they became potential allies rather than remaining enemies.

We see this with Illyrio working with Viserys, with Harry Strickland pushing Aegon to marry Daenerys, etc.

For Varys it isn't that important who Aegon is. If it were, he would have revealed that to Kevan, too. The man was dying, after all, and could tell nobody. If Varys was about revenge and payback and restoration of a particular dynasty he would also have talked more about that.

Instead, the crucial things George had him say were about the kind of king Varys thinks Aegon will be and why he is doing all that - for the children, i.e. the future of the smallfolk of Westeros, presumably.

This is really a scene we should read as the author telling us what kind of guy Varys is, not so much a scene which we should doubt and second-guess.

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