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Daeron the Daring

Why I think (f)Aegon has the blood to ride a Targaryen dragon.

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So, I honestly never noticed this before, but it does seem like many didn't, altough it's pretty simple.

Looking at things from Illyrio's perspective:

From the moment Daenerys hatched her dragons, he and Varys were involving her in their plan as Aegon's bribe, whatever that plan is. That does not only mean that they intended the two to marry each other, but also expected Aegon to contact the dragons, either because he thinks he can ride one or because he actually has the blood to do so.

That means that playing their cards this way would be more than risky if Aegon couldn't actually ride one due to illegitimacy. I always considered Varys and Illyrio to be smart enough to plan their way to their goal, whatever it might be, and that they're doing it properly. 

If you have a boy who couldn't ride dragons, but you want the boy to end up in the seat where such people sit, you either get rid of the dragons (who are more than a potential threat to your puppet) or the woman (Daenerys) who brings them around, but in the case of her death they would be set loose or killed. 

Yet, none of these happened, nor did they show any sign of doing it ever. That brang me to the conclusion that Aegon, Targaryen, Blackfyre or anything you want to imagine into him, has the blood to climb on the back of one.

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I think there is a lot of credence to this proposition. The only hole that comes to mind immediately is the possibility that Varys and Illyrio assumed Dany would control all three dragons herself, thus making her fundamental to the plan in using Dragons, but like you said, it does seem likely that fAegon has some Targ/Blackfyre blood.

the dragon has three heads after all so the assumption of riders must be placed someone.

I'm honestly mostly just curious about the plan to het the two hitched. it does seem the best way to give them both claim over the iron crown, and under Westeros rules, it would be Aegon as king so...

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25 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

The only hole that comes to mind immediately is the possibility that Varys and Illyrio assumed Dany would control all three dragons herself, thus making her fundamental to the plan in using Dragons

That's unlikely for the simple reason that history proved the opposite.

For example: Rhaenyra's dragon Syrax throw Joffrey Velaryon off because she already had a rider, and Joffrey too had a dragon. People inside George's world consider this as the reason that happened.

Another reason: Baelon Targaryen rode Vhagar while his brother Aemon rode Meleys, and the two were close and often had journeys and quests together, yet Vhagar without hesitation went for the head when she had to to kill Meleys.

And another one: Caraxes and Vhagar were also 'close' (or so it would seem) to each other due to Laena riding her and being Daemon's wife, who rode Caraxes, yet the two dragons found no problem with killing each other above the God's Eye.

Not quite the same, I know, but still. Anyone who knows little Targaryen history (Varys or Illyiro likely do know even more than what is necesarry) can't expect Daenerys to ride all three of them, and altough she has a somewhat special bond with all three of them, I doubt Rhaegal or Viserion wouldn't attack her when their rider wants it, and Daenerys might know this (altough never considers it), as well as someone with little knowledge about dragons knows this.

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Posted (edited)

In a royal progression, jaehaerys and alysanne traveled north with six dragons, four of them unmounted. It is therefore possible for a dragonrider to be followed by the unbound dragon in these trips.

He just can't order them to fight.

It explains how vaghar ended up in dragonstone when aemond claemed her.while he was in drifmark when laena died.

Daenerys is the mother of dragons, it is also possible that she transcends everything we have seen so far.

 

Edited by Hug-hammer
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For the sake of dramatic narrative, I think Aegon is going to get a dragon.

Quote

"They were dancing. In my dream. And everywhere the dragons danced the people died."

I think this is not going to be a completely one-sided fight.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Another reason: Baelon Targaryen rode Vhagar while his brother Aemon rode Meleys, and the two were close and often had journeys and quests together, yet Vhagar without hesitation went for the head when she had to to kill Meleys.

 

I just need to point this out....Prince Aemon rode Caraxes the Blood Wyrm. 

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

For example: Rhaenyra's dragon Syrax throw Joffrey Velaryon off because she already had a rider, and Joffrey too had a dragon. People inside George's world consider this as the reason that happened.

 

Not exactly, Syrax threw him off because:

1. Joffrey was known to Syrax, but she never bore anyone on her back except for Queen Rhaenyra

2. Dragons can only have one rider at a time. 

Edited by Jaenara Belarys

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3 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

So, I honestly never noticed this before, but it does seem like many didn't, altough it's pretty simple.

Looking at things from Illyrio's perspective:

From the moment Daenerys hatched her dragons, he and Varys were involving her in their plan as Aegon's bribe, whatever that plan is. That does not only mean that they intended the two to marry each other, but also expected Aegon to contact the dragons, either because he thinks he can ride one or because he actually has the blood to do so.

That means that playing their cards this way would be more than risky if Aegon couldn't actually ride one due to illegitimacy. I always considered Varys and Illyrio to be smart enough to plan their way to their goal, whatever it might be, and that they're doing it properly. 

If you have a boy who couldn't ride dragons, but you want the boy to end up in the seat where such people sit, you either get rid of the dragons (who are more than a potential threat to your puppet) or the woman (Daenerys) who brings them around, but in the case of her death they would be set loose or killed. 

Yet, none of these happened, nor did they show any sign of doing it ever. That brang me to the conclusion that Aegon, Targaryen, Blackfyre or anything you want to imagine into him, has the blood to climb on the back of one.

You assume they expected a dragon rebirth.  It doesn't matter now though.  Dany brought the dragons back and she is a true Queen.  Aegon will be the one to bend his knees to her even if he is legitimate.  A true Targaryen from both father and mother who also happens to be the Mother of Dragons will easily outrank the son of Rhaegar. 

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1 hour ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

just need to point this out....Prince Aemon rode Caraxes the Blood Wyrm. 

Yea, whatever, i confused it up a bit, but it makes the Caraxes-Vhagar fight even more deep.

1 hour ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

 Dragons can only have one rider at a time

Riders too can't have multiple dragons simultaneously.

55 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

You assume they expected a dragon rebirth. 

Oh no, I don't. But Illyrio and Varys had to rework their plan multiple times. Remember that Illyrio sent 3 ships after Daenerys when he heard about the dragons, but whatever he wanted to do it was with Viserys, since he tought that Daenerys wouldn't even survive the Dothraki Sea (no, he didn't sent her there to die as some think, but this still means Daenerys wasn't a significant part of their further plan at the very beginning).

What I meant is that Illyrio and Varys would not send a fake Aegon (who doesn't have the blood to ride a dragon) to Daenerys where he would've tried to tame a dragon no matter what, so a fake Aegon in this scenario would not have worked. Yet they went along with what they planned, aka sending Aegon to Daenerys to meet her where the Golden Company was waiting for both. This is what proves that Aegon does have the blood of the dragon, because with a fake one they would've needed to get rid of dragons, who can't be tricked with an impostor, or entirely throw their scheme out the window.

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It is unclear if they expected Aegon to become a dragonrider. They never mention it. But uniting the claims and getting married probably means sharing everything they have. 

Lets see the dragonseeds in Dance. Ulf, Hugh and especially Nettles have unclear parentage and relation to Targaryens, yet they manage to claim dragons while Alyn fails despite having more certain Targaryen heritage.

So Aegon has more chances to claim Rhaegal or Viserion.

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17 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Yet, none of these happened, nor did they show any sign of doing it ever. That brang me to the conclusion that Aegon, Targaryen, Blackfyre or anything you want to imagine into him, has the blood to climb on the back of one.

I don't think anyone can make plans that assume that an individual will, merely because of some Valyrian heritage, ride a dragon he has never met.

15 hours ago, Lluewhyn said:

For the sake of dramatic narrative, I think Aegon is going to get a dragon.

I think this is not going to be a completely one-sided fight.

Here I am inclined to agree.  But if Aegon's team were to get only one dragon, I would expect that dragon to be ridden by an underling, like perhaps Loras Tyrell.  This would fit with the foreshadowing of Aegon's cyvasse game, in which Aegon loses his dragon, and his cyvasse game, by putting his dragon into play too early.  This foreshadowing seams to put Aegon in the role of a player rather than a piece.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Endymion I Targaryen said:

Lets see the dragonseeds in Dance. Ulf, Hugh and especially Nettles have unclear parentage and relation to Targaryens, yet they manage to claim dragons while Alyn fails despite having more certain Targaryen heritage.

Keep in mind that the Targs tended to have an advantage over dragonseeds in that they grew up with dragons, and around dragons, and could start to get to know dragons when they were tiny hatchlings and much less of a threat.  The dragonseeds took enormous risks in approaching adult dragons, and many of them died in the attempt.   fAegon is in a similar position.

Edited by Mister Smikes

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16 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

2. Dragons can only have one rider at a time. 

Ronnel Arryn rode on Vhagar together with Rhaenyra. Alysa Targaryen, also on Vhagar, rode together with newborn Viserys I. Prince Aemond took Alys Rivers with him, they flew together on his dragon, prior he went to fight in the Battle Above God's Eye. And Alys at that time was pregnant. Thus, even though a dragon bonds to one rider, that rider can take on board other people as passengers.

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4 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Ronnel Arryn rode on Vhagar together with Rhaenyra. Alysa Targaryen, also on Vhagar, rode together with newborn Viserys I. Prince Aemond took Alys Rivers with him, they flew together on his dragon, prior he went to fight in the Battle Above God's Eye. And Alys at that time was pregnant. Thus, even though a dragon bonds to one rider, that rider can take on board other people as passengers.

But we're not talking about that. Joffrey was flying on Syrax alone. Thus, since he doesn't have Rhaenyra with him, he's liable to get bucked off. 

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

So, I honestly never noticed this before, but it does seem like many didn't, altough it's pretty simple.

Looking at things from Illyrio's perspective:

From the moment Daenerys hatched her dragons, he and Varys were involving her in their plan as Aegon's bribe, whatever that plan is. That does not only mean that they intended the two to marry each other, but also expected Aegon to contact the dragons, either because he thinks he can ride one or because he actually has the blood to do so.

That means that playing their cards this way would be more than risky if Aegon couldn't actually ride one due to illegitimacy. I always considered Varys and Illyrio to be smart enough to plan their way to their goal, whatever it might be, and that they're doing it properly. 

If you have a boy who couldn't ride dragons, but you want the boy to end up in the seat where such people sit, you either get rid of the dragons (who are more than a potential threat to your puppet) or the woman (Daenerys) who brings them around, but in the case of her death they would be set loose or killed. 

Yet, none of these happened, nor did they show any sign of doing it ever. That brang me to the conclusion that Aegon, Targaryen, Blackfyre or anything you want to imagine into him, has the blood to climb on the back of one.

I think you're right to the extent that Illyrio probably thinks that Aegon has the right bloodlines to ride a dragon.  Of course that doesn't mean Illyrio is right.  Even though I will give Illyrio some credit, in that he did give the dragon eggs to someone who was ultimately able to hatch them.

I'm not terribly sure that Illyrio is planning on marrying Aegon to Danaerys, however.  Dany has been given a pretty stern warning by Quaithe to trust no one.  Which you probably wouldn't need a prophet to foretell.  It wouldn't suprise me if Illyrio plans on double crossing Dany once he gets a hold on one of her dragons.

One thing Illyrio has probably learned in his dealings with Dany is that she's hard to control.  That may not suit Illyrio and Varys' long range plans to rule through Aegon.

Edited by Frey family reunion

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18 hours ago, Hug-hammer said:

In a royal progression, jaehaerys and alysanne traveled north with six dragons, four of them unmounted. It is therefore possible for a dragonrider to be followed by the unbound dragon in these trips.

That actually never happened. Only two dragons went to Winterfell back then - Vermithor and Silverwing. The tale grew in the telling. But it is still possible that a dragonrider can direct the dragon of another rider as Daemon showed when he flew with Vhagar and Caraxes back across the Narraw Sea while Laena took a ship.

It also seems as if dragonriders can direct riderless dragons with the help of their dragons, but Dany's dragons are effectively wild dragons now, which means this shouldn't be easy. I don't see them getting to Westeros without riders. They are too large and wild for ships.

As for the general question:

If Varys/Illyrio never expected the dragon eggs to hatch they wouldn't have necessary created their ideal king to be one who also has the potential to become a dragonrider ... nor is there any reason to believe they are experts in or care about dragonlore. That's one of the reasons why they recruited Tyrion - they knew he was a dragonlore expert. Which means they aren't.

Varys and Illyrio might not know what it takes to become a dragonrider nor do they have to think Aegon has to be a dragonrider at all. The point was for Aegon to marry Daenerys. Their children then would definitely be able to claim dragons, just as Dany herself would. That would be enough so they could take the Iron Throne together.

Historically, not all Targaryens were dragonriders. Aegon the Uncrowned only claimed a dragon after his father's death. Maegor also waited pretty long. Viserys I wasn't a dragonrider throughout his entire reign. Most of Jaehaerys I's children weren't dragonriders, etc.

If Varys/Illyrio bothered to create their Aegon using dragonlord descendants Aegon might be able to become a dragonrider, although even then there is no guarantee. Aegon clearly wouldn't be the offspring the incestuous royal branch of the Targaryens and his dragon blood might be as diluted as that of Quentyn Martell.

And if they just went for the Valyrian looks they may have created a guy who cannot possibly do the trick.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

If Varys/Illyrio never expected the dragon eggs to hatch they wouldn't have necessary created their ideal king to be one who also has the potential to become a dragonrider

If they created an ideal king, and not just raised one, then they chose their king to be a Targaryen because of legitimacy and whatever reason they had we don't know, not because the guy is supposed to be able to ride dragons and actually can't (unless they went to Dragonstone/Driftmark/Kingslanding to find their puppet so that it has the blood, but even then there is nso guarantee).

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

nor is there any reason to believe they are experts in or care about dragonlore

Knowing that a fake Aegon wouldn't be able to ride a dragon isn't much of a big deal. You can consider it being general knowledge to them, who are 'dancing' with dragons.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That's one of the reasons why they recruited Tyrion - they knew he was a dragonlore expert. Which means they aren't.

There's no indication that they recruited Tyrion because he knows a lot of stuff about dragons. Sure, we don't know why Varys did it after all, but there are several possibilities I'd consider more likely than that they know nothing about dragons and the best source is Tyrion. 

After all, they sent teachers to Aegon who know this stuff and all. (I mean they must know)

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Varys and Illyrio might not know what it takes to become a dragonrider nor do they have to think Aegon has to be a dragonrider at all.

My main point wasn't even this. I said that Aegon knows who he is, or at least thinks he is Rhaegar's son and can ride a dragon. Watching this from his POV it is more than likely that at some point (rather sooner than later) he might try to tame one of the dragons, and fails because he's a fake. That's why Varys and Illyrio can not put a fake in front of a dragon.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The point was for Aegon to marry Daenerys.

Of course it was, but as I said it is foolish to think Aegon would never try to ride a dragon, especially given his personality and also because Daenerys, his aunt, managed to ride one, altough she's just a woman and not a king (from his pov). And if Varys and Illyrio know what it takes to ride a dragon (and it's not s big deal to know it), they had to take this into account when Daenerys hatched them.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Historically, not all Targaryens were dragonriders. Aegon the Uncrowned only claimed a dragon after his father's death. Maegor also waited pretty long. Viserys I wasn't a dragonrider throughout his entire reign. Most of Jaehaerys I's children weren't dragonriders, etc.

Ir's surely not a problem, but neither of these people had to reclaim the IT while being dragonless (tho a dragon for Viserys would've been handy). There are several obvious variations how Aegon could end up too close to a dragon.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

If Varys/Illyrio bothered to create their Aegon using dragonlord descendants Aegon might be able to become a dragonrider, although even then there is no guarantee. Aegon clearly wouldn't be the offspring the incestuous royal branch of the Targaryens and his dragon blood might be as diluted as that of Quentyn Martell.

Agreed. Tho, I gotta tell that Brown Ben Plumm's dragonblood might be even less than Quentyn's, yet the dragons felt it.(As far as I know they felt Quentyn's too, I think I saw you agreeing with this, sorry if you're not actually and I confused things up)

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And if they just went for the Valyrian looks they may have created a guy who cannot possibly do the trick

Well, that's what I'm saying as well, tho I think they know that one needs the blood.

4 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

I don't think anyone can make plans that assume that an individual will, merely because of some Valyrian heritage, ride a dragon he has never met

After all, they intend Aegon to be king.

1)The guy isn't a shy one. 

2) Aegon thinks he can ride a dragon.

3) He might think he has to do it because Daenerys does too.

4) He might think he has to do it because he'll be king. Remember how people were talking about Aegon the Uncrowned for not riding a dragon?

5) He might think he'd have to ride a dragon when they reconquer Westeros.

And all that stuff. There clearly is a great risk to put a fake (and I mean someone who doesn't have the required blood from any direction) in front of a dragon, because that's what would've happened if he would've met Daenerys. It's not some valyrian heritage, Aegon thinks he is Rhaegar's son.

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think you're right to the extent that Illyrio probably thinks that Aegon has the right bloodlines to ride a dragon.  Of course that doesn't mean Illyrio is right. 

Well, if we want to be more precise, that's the right way to say it.

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Even though I will give Illyrio some credit, in that he did give the dragon eggs to someone who was ultimately able to hatch them.

I don't know if anyone expected the eggs to hatch. That's why it was so big of a miracle. If Illyrio tough she will, he wouldn't have let her go to the Dothraki Sea, especially because he thought she's too weak to survive it.

 

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I'm not terribly sure that Illyrio is planning on marrying Aegon to Danaerys, however.  Dany has been given a pretty stern warning by Quaithe to trust no one.  Which you probably wouldn't need a prophet to foretell.  It wouldn't suprise me if Illyrio plans on double crossing Dany once he gets a hold on one of her dragons.

One thing Illyrio has probably learned in his dealings with Dany is that she's hard to control.  That may not suit Illyrio and Varys' long range plans to rule through Aegon.

Either way, the plan was to meet Daenerys (whether they wanted the marriage or not), and that way Aegon would've contacted the dragons too. Note that the Golden Company wasn't into leaving to Westeros without Daenerys at first. That pretty much confirms that Daenerys moving out from Meereen was part of their past plan.

Edited by Daeron the Daring

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2 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

But we're not talking about that. Joffrey was flying on Syrax alone. Thus, since he doesn't have Rhaenyra with him, he's liable to get bucked off. 

There are, after all, two reasons why Joffrey fell off of Syrax:

1) The dragon wasn't his.

2) Syrax wore no saddle. If she had a saddle, she probably still would've tried to get Joffrey off of herself, but wouldn't had been able to do it. Not that she would've followed his orders that way, but he would've survived at least the fligh (assuming that Syrax went to the Dragonpit).

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

It also seems as if dragonriders can direct riderless dragons with the help of their dragons, but Dany's dragons are effectively wild dragons now, which means this shouldn't be easy. I don't see them getting to Westeros without riders. They are too large and wild for ships.

Which further suggests Dany needs dragonriders before she can come to Westeros.  Dany tells Quentyn that she only expects to ride one of her Dragons, and gives very heavy hints that she needs a fellow dragonrider more than she needs another suitor.  But I think many fans are resistant to any suggestion that any other character should be allowed to steal one of Dany's pets.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

If Varys/Illyrio never expected the dragon eggs to hatch they wouldn't have necessary created their ideal king to be one who also has the potential to become a dragonrider ... nor is there any reason to believe they are experts in or care about dragonlore.

My general impression has been that the entire KL crowd underestimates magic and tends to leave it out of their calculations.  But if Varys/Illyrio have a Blackfyre connection, all bets are off.  Varys claims to hate magic and magicians, but that could be just misdirection.  For all we know, he could be one himself.  I have wondered if Young Griff's "friends in the Reach" may include magicians among the Hightowers, who, like Mel, are maybe plotting to wake stone dragons using blood magic.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That's one of the reasons why they recruited Tyrion - they knew he was a dragonlore expert. Which means they aren't.

I never got that impression.  I just thought Varys/Illyrio see Tyrion as a potential ally because he hates the Lannisters.  Did I miss something?

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Most of Jaehaerys I's children weren't dragonriders, etc.

Maybe sibling incest is not necessarily such a good thing.  My guess is that those characters who worry too much about blood purity are probably on the wrong track.

 

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32 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

After all, they intend Aegon to be king.

1)The guy isn't a shy one. 

2) Aegon thinks he can ride a dragon.

3) He might think he has to do it because Daenerys does too.

Well ... it's one thing to want to ride a dragon, and another thing to want to ride a dragon after actually meeting one.  But it could happen.

32 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

4) He might think he has to do it because he'll be king. Remember how people were talking about Aegon the Uncrowned for not riding a dragon?

5) He might think he'd have to ride a dragon when they reconquer Westeros.

It may eventually come to that.  And perhaps, that will be the end of him.

32 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

And all that stuff. There clearly is a great risk to put a fake (and I mean someone who doesn't have the required blood from any direction) in front of a dragon, because that's what would've happened if he would've met Daenerys. It's not some valyrian heritage, Aegon thinks he is Rhaegar's son.

And when he kills himself trying to ride a dragon, perhaps then the question of how he will be proven fake will be rendered moot.

But I suspect he has a significant level of dragon heritage either way.  His main disadvantage, if he is fake, is the that Woods Witch prophesy cannot refer to him.

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5 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Keep in mind that the Targs tended to have an advantage over dragonseeds in that they grew up with dragons, and around dragons, and could start to get to know dragons when they were tiny hatchlings and much less of a threat.  The dragonseeds took enormous risks in approaching adult dragons, and many of them died in the attempt.   fAegon is in a similar position.

Yet 4 dragonseeds managed to claim dragons. In a same period when the future Viserys II failed to hatch his egg.

By 300 all with dragonblood are the same considering the contact with dragons.

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