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Daeron the Daring

Why I think (f)Aegon has the blood to ride a Targaryen dragon.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/3/2021 at 7:28 PM, Daeron the Daring said:

If they created an ideal king, and not just raised one, then they chose their king to be a Targaryen because of legitimacy and whatever reason they had we don't know, not because the guy is supposed to be able to ride dragons and actually can't (unless they went to Dragonstone/Driftmark/Kingslanding to find their puppet so that it has the blood, but even then there is nso guarantee).

They certainly wanted to go with the Targaryen name and apparently think this is crucial for the Aegon plan since the Targaryens are the 'natural royal dynasty' of Westeros, unlike the Baratheons or Blackfyres, etc.

But if they didn't expect the dragons to return all they actually needed for the Aegon plan was a boy who could pass for Rhaegar's son. They wouldn't have needed a boy that looked like Rhaegar's son and had the potential to become a dragonrider.

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There's no indication that they recruited Tyrion because he knows a lot of stuff about dragons. Sure, we don't know why Varys did it after all, but there are several possibilities I'd consider more likely than that they know nothing about dragons and the best source is Tyrion. 

We do know that one of Tyrion's task on the Rhoyne was to write down everything he knew/remembered about dragons. And Connington puts him to this task because Varys/Illyrio told him that he was an expert in those things. It was definitely one of the things they wanted Tyrion for. Perhaps not all the things, sure, but it was one of the reasons why Varys recruited him.

And if you look at things then Varys would have had received word about the dragons roughly around the same time he started to work closely with Tyrion in ACoK.

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After all, they sent teachers to Aegon who know this stuff and all. (I mean they must know)

Haldon isn't that much of a dragonlore expert.

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My main point wasn't even this. I said that Aegon knows who he is, or at least thinks he is Rhaegar's son and can ride a dragon. Watching this from his POV it is more than likely that at some point (rather sooner than later) he might try to tame one of the dragons, and fails because he's a fake. That's why Varys and Illyrio can not put a fake in front of a dragon.

That is certainly an important point. My counter that was/is that we cannot really presuppose/assume Varys/Illyrio have confirmed knowledge about the dragonrider bond. They do not have to believe that only real Targaryen descendants can become dragonriders.

Think about it, even in FaB we have Targaryens like Queen Rhaena repeatedly imply they think non-Targaryens can become dragonriders. Rhaena fears the Lannisters could become dragonlords if they acquired her dragons and she thinks her husband Androw could also claim a dragon (although she thinks he is too craven to try). Even for Jaehaerys I it is a real possibility that there could be a new dragonlord house if the three dragon eggs Elissa Farman stole would hatch. He thinks it would be terrible if the Volantene triarchs got dragons - who most likely do have dragonlord blood - but his concerns are not limited to them. He also thinks there could be Braavosi dragonlords ... and is determined to stop this from happening.

We also have the same line of thinking when various folks try to mount the riderless dragons on Dragonstone and later riderless Silverwing at Tumbleton.

It isn't that big of a stretch to assume Varys/Illyrio could believe or hope Aegon could become a dragonrider simply because he looks like a Targaryen and is close to Daenerys as her husband.

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Of course it was, but as I said it is foolish to think Aegon would never try to ride a dragon, especially given his personality and also because Daenerys, his aunt, managed to ride one, altough she's just a woman and not a king (from his pov). And if Varys and Illyrio know what it takes to ride a dragon (and it's not s big deal to know it), they had to take this into account when Daenerys hatched them.

They could deal with that issue when it was time. At this point the dragons are still pretty small, so Aegon approaching one and being rejected doesn't have to result in his death. Quentyn wasn't killed by the dragon he tried to tame but by the one he ignored too long.

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Agreed. Tho, I gotta tell that Brown Ben Plumm's dragonblood might be even less than Quentyn's, yet the dragons felt it.(As far as I know they felt Quentyn's too, I think I saw you agreeing with this, sorry if you're not actually and I confused things up)

Actually, Ben would definitely have much more Targaryen blood than Quentyn. For one, he is older than Quentyn, meaning there are fewer generations between him and Elaena Targaryen than there are between Quentyn and Daenerys Targaryen. Viserys Plumm could technically be Ben's grandfather - although I guess he is his great-grandfather. But more importantly, it seems Ben's ancestor Viserys Plumm was Targaryen on both sides, being fathered by Aegon IV on his cousin Elaena.

On 5/3/2021 at 7:50 PM, Mister Smikes said:

Which further suggests Dany needs dragonriders before she can come to Westeros.  Dany tells Quentyn that she only expects to ride one of her Dragons, and gives very heavy hints that she needs a fellow dragonrider more than she needs another suitor.  But I think many fans are resistant to any suggestion that any other character should be allowed to steal one of Dany's pets.

I don't think that's the case, actually. I think most people expect that Viserion and Rhaegal will acquire their first riders pretty soon.

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My general impression has been that the entire KL crowd underestimates magic and tends to leave it out of their calculations.  But if Varys/Illyrio have a Blackfyre connection, all bets are off.  Varys claims to hate magic and magicians, but that could be just misdirection.  For all we know, he could be one himself.  I have wondered if Young Griff's "friends in the Reach" may include magicians among the Hightowers, who, like Mel, are maybe plotting to wake stone dragons using blood magic.

Varys' hatred of magic seems to be genuine. It is part of his origin story and it is strongly implied he never lied when telling that story. That said - somebody who hates something can also know a lot about this topic. But dragonlore is a very obscure topic these days, considering the dragons were gone for 150 years. Why should have Varys cared much about that obscure topic even if he studied magic?

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I never got that impression.  I just thought Varys/Illyrio see Tyrion as a potential ally because he hates the Lannisters.  Did I miss something?

See above. Jon Connington has Tyrion write down everything he knows about dragonlore. And he does that because Varys/Illyrio told him that Tyrion knows a lot about this stuff.

It's not the only reason why they are interested in Tyrion but it might actually be the crucial reason why they send Tyrion to Aegon and Connington. They are expecting to meet Daenerys and her dragons soon and the idea seems to have been that Aegon could make a good impression with Dany because he could help her tame/deal with her dragons.

Edited by Lord Varys

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32 minutes ago, Endymion I Targaryen said:

Yet 4 dragonseeds managed to claim dragons. In a same period when the future Viserys II failed to hatch his egg.

By 300 all with dragonblood are the same considering the contact with dragons.

How many died in the attempt?  How many took one look at a dragon and (sensibly) did not even dare make the attempt?   I'm not saying any particular ancestry is necessary.

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20 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

You assume they expected a dragon rebirth.  It doesn't matter now though.  Dany brought the dragons back and she is a true Queen.  Aegon will be the one to bend his knees to her even if he is legitimate.  A true Targaryen from both father and mother who also happens to be the Mother of Dragons will easily outrank the son of Rhaegar. 

That's not how Westerosi feudalism works. The son always outranks the sister of the heir to the throne. The original dance of the dragons was fought over exactly this question. It didn't matter that Rheanera was the chosen heir, or that she had more dragons than the Greens did. She was a woman, and the Greens and their supporters wanted a king. When Danaerys finally gets to Westeros and finds fAegon already crowned and annointed, it isn't going to matter one iota that she has dragons. The expectation will be for Dany to bow down to the alleged son of Rheagar. And when she does not, there will be repercussions.

On 5/2/2021 at 2:56 PM, Daeron the Daring said:

So, I honestly never noticed this before, but it does seem like many didn't, altough it's pretty simple.

Looking at things from Illyrio's perspective:

From the moment Daenerys hatched her dragons, he and Varys were involving her in their plan as Aegon's bribe, whatever that plan is. That does not only mean that they intended the two to marry each other, but also expected Aegon to contact the dragons, either because he thinks he can ride one or because he actually has the blood to do so.

That means that playing their cards this way would be more than risky if Aegon couldn't actually ride one due to illegitimacy. I always considered Varys and Illyrio to be smart enough to plan their way to their goal, whatever it might be, and that they're doing it properly. 

If you have a boy who couldn't ride dragons, but you want the boy to end up in the seat where such people sit, you either get rid of the dragons (who are more than a potential threat to your puppet) or the woman (Daenerys) who brings them around, but in the case of her death they would be set loose or killed. 

Yet, none of these happened, nor did they show any sign of doing it ever. That brang me to the conclusion that Aegon, Targaryen, Blackfyre or anything you want to imagine into him, has the blood to climb on the back of one.

That's probably exactly what Illyrio and Varys had in mind, though how they knew the eggs would hatch for Dany is a big mystery. I do think however that these two have a pretty bad record so far when it comes to getting their pawns to move according to their plans. They may not intend for Dany and Aegon to fight each other, but both Dany and Aegon are rapidly acting in ways they didn't anticipate and that sets up a conflict between the two, no matter how much everyone involved tries to avoid it.

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30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think that's the case, actually. I think most people expect that Viserion and Rhaegal will acquire their first riders pretty soon.

As long as it's not Quentyn?

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Varys' hatred of magic seems to be genuine. It is part of his origin story and it is strongly implied he never lied when telling that story.

I guess you don't subscribe to the theory that Varys is a woman, and is merely explaining, in case anyone should glimpse him taking a piss, why he has even less down there than is normal for eunuchs, and why he does not piss standing up.

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

See above. Jon Connington has Tyrion write down everything he knows about dragonlore. And he does that because Varys/Illyrio told him that Tyrion knows a lot about this stuff.

Thank you.  I had forgotten that part.  Seems an afterthought though, for folks who have been plotting for decades.

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56 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

As long as it's not Quentyn?

Quentyn is dead.

56 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

I guess you don't subscribe to the theory that Varys is a woman, and is merely explaining, in case anyone should glimpse him taking a piss, why he has even less down there than is normal for eunuchs, and why he does not piss standing up.

I don't think that 'theory' has any merit at all.

56 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Thank you.  I had forgotten that part.  Seems an afterthought though, for folks who have been plotting for decades.

Varys/Illyrio's plots are a work in progress as is pointed out in ADwD. It wasn't a decade-long project to recruit Tyrion. That is likely something that Varys started to think about when he worked closely with Tyrion in ACoK ... but a real possibility it only became after the Blackwater when Tyrion was treated like shit by his family and Varys could use Shae as a tool to completely separate Tyrion from his family.

If Tywin had treated him better, if he had dumped Shae, if he had returned to CR or gone to Winterfell, if Jaime had returned before Joffrey's death, etc. then Varys would have never been able to recruit Tyrion.

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Medieval reasons for not wanting a queen to rule. I DO NOT agree with it.

Its absurd and against the natural order intended by God Almighty. We know this fact because of Eve who listened to evil counsel. Forever more, women are to be punished by death and agony in childbirth. There can’t be any other reason for that.

Women are not tough enough, or smart enough for leadership, and particularly do not have military skills. Because women are evil, they cannot be trusted with an education or physical fitness.. If they do not accept their basic inferiority...they are inherently evil. Aristotle( is that right?)  decreed that women should be fed half of what men are...because....logic. Laws are in place so that feeble and weak minded women can’t own their businesses, inherit, or sign contracts. A woman would have her stuff stolen anyway, so better have a husband to defend the women as his property.

Any woman breaking the rules could and should be punished, and death may be a good option to save their souls.

A man of any kind has been created in the image of God, therefore women are flawed n and must be mastered by a man. The only thing that women have of value is their uterus, and their virginity ( why else do they take up space in this perfect orderly universe designed with the sun and moon circling the earth in the heavens.)

It makes less sense in Westeros.

The practical reason is that women may die in childbirth, (eventually)which makes things tense for their supporters.  A man can replace an unsatisfactory wife. When in doubt, accuse the woman of infidelity, illegitimacy, or witchcraft, and it doesn’t need to be true at all, but people will agree to this unless they have strong relatives who would object to this treatment.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Quentyn is dead.

So is Sandor.  The big difference is that fans want Quentyn to be dead.  I don't particularly want him to be alive, but to me his death looks like a fairly blatant fake out.  And if I am right, Dany already has her first dragon-rider.  The potential plot relevance of this you have already conceded:  Dany needs dragonriders to get to Westeros.

In your case I'm not sure if you are unaware of the "Quentyn is Alive" theory, or just dismissing it with summary contempt.

If the latter, maybe I should just throw the ball in your court, and ask who you think the dragonriders will be who will bring Dany's dragons to Westeros for us.

Edited by Mister Smikes

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think that 'theory' has any merit at all.

Surely, though, it is a fair question, when dealing with a mystery man and master of disguise, to ask ourselves how much we really know about him.  You seem confident, for instance, that you know he is telling the truth when he says he hates magic and mages.

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How is Quentins death fake @Mister Smikes

Secondly, not @Mister Smikes idk if this has been discussed but Aegon is..18? If he's fake does he know he's fake? 

Edited by Orion2

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1 hour ago, Orion2 said:

How is Quentins death fake @Mister Smikes

1- Tatters tells Frog his ordinary appearance allows him to maneuver incognito

2 - Later, outside the Dragon Pit appear 8 people:  Caggo, Meris, 4 ordinary Windblown, Frog, Archie & Gerris.  All are dressed identically as Bronze beasts.

3 - Frog asks where Tatters is.  Meris says he is at the ship.

4 - The Windblown betray Frog and attack the dragons, suggesting that wherever Tatters is, he is not at any ship

5 - Viserion kills a crossbowman. (one of the 4 ordinary windblown)

6 - Frog is engulphed in furnace wind and starts burning (Dany has had similar experiences, in almost identical language).

7 - a break in the action occurs in which the reader does not get to see what happens

8 - guards show up, and find 4 people - Archie, Gerris, a dead crossbowman, and one burnt-beyond-recognition man.  Caggo, Merris, both dragons, and 2 other people have escaped from the scene.  Guards assume the burnt-beyond-recognition man is Frog, and that Frog is not one of the 4 people who left the scene.  Archie & Gerris do not correct their mistake, as they do not want Frog's efforts interfered with.

9.  Viserion occupies a pyramid that night, from which all the inhabitants flee.  His new buddy Frog joins him there.  They begin spending quality time together.

10 - Prince Tatters, burnt beyond recognition, dies on Dany's bed 3 days later.  Only Missandei can bear to be with him, and he speaks only a few words and only to make simple requests.  He dies without anyone realizing he is Prince Tatters, and not Prince Frog.

 

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Secondly, not @Mister Smikes idk if this has been discussed but Aegon is..18? If he's fake does he know he's fake? 

No, the swap occurred early, at around age 3.   Just as fAegon thinks he is Aegon, so does fQuentyn think he is Quentyn.

Edited by Mister Smikes

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oh my gosh @Mister Smikes fake Quentyn???? bruh

although, I admit I really don't want Quentyn to be dead so I'll go along with this

Edited by Orion2
no

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10 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

No, the swap occurred early, at around age 3.   Just as fAegon thinks he is Aegon, so does fQuentyn think he is Quentyn.

This is how you explain the whole chapter being from the perspective of someone who thinks hes Quentyn?

So is Gerris Drinkwater the real Quentyn? 

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2 minutes ago, Orion2 said:

This is how you explain the whole chapter being from the perspective of someone who thinks hes Quentyn?

That's how baby swaps normally work.  The babies don't tend to remember being swapped.  They believe whatever their caretakers tell them.

2 minutes ago, Orion2 said:

So is Gerris Drinkwater the real Quentyn? 

No.  Young Griff is the real Quentyn.  Doran swapped his nephew with his son.  Quentyn was raised to think he is Aegon; and Aegon was raised to think he is Quentyn.

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14 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

That's how baby swaps normally work.  The babies don't tend to remember being swapped.  They believe whatever their caretakers tell them.

No.  Young Griff is the real Quentyn.  Doran swapped his nephew with his son.  Quentyn was raised to think he is Aegon; and Aegon was raised to think he is Quentyn.

Oh shit @Mister Smikes. I had no idea about this theory

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I have a bit of a fascination with the Sphynx riddle and the mention of the female line being the surviving one. I tend to wonder if that will in fact play out in a way that relates to the dragonriders. 

Unfortunately filling in the theory requires evidence from family trees that we just don't seem to have. But to me it is fascinating trying to trace the female lines from the Dance onward and speculate where they might have passed through unnoticed since the female line did not carry the Targaryen name.

From that perspective even though we know that Jon is truly a Targaryen, he is unlikely to be a female line Targ. On the other hand, fAegon is likely a female line Blackfyre. The Blackfyre line begins with Daena Targaryen (who believed herself born to be a dragonrider), but she had no daughters. Did Rohanne of Tyrosh have dragon blood and was that part of why Aegon IV arranged that marriage? Rohanne's daughter Calla continued the female Blackfyre line, which we may find out passed to fAegon from Serra via a chain of marriages that connected various female dragon blood lines from the free cities as well as Southern Westeros.

Daena's sister Elaena left a complex chain of descendants that included serveral daughters. Where their bloodlines passed from there is not clear at all. However they were in place to perhaps have bred descendants in the Stormlands and Westerlands, leading via Johanna to the Lannisters we know and love. However it is moments where the bloodlines reconnect that IMO will prove the most interesting. So it is not just Elaena's daughters, but where they connect with the other Targ branches that creates the dragon blood *resonance* let's call it.

The family trees simply are not complete enough to really trace it. Still I like to think of it as an interesting feminist idea to make such a complicated history revolving around male heredity only for the real story to be buried in the female line.

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I agree @Hippocras bout the feminist narrative 

@Mister Smikes How do you explain YGs coloring? Quentyn should not have near enough dragon blood to have dark purple eyes and white blond hair. Dark purple eyes is STRONG dragon blood. Or at least real dragon blood. Theres a very strong theme about the color of valyrans eyes 

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2 hours ago, Orion2 said:

 

@Mister Smikes How do you explain YGs coloring?

He gets it from his mother.  Note that it is the custom of Norvosi noblewomen to shave their hair and wear wigs.   So Mellario's true coloring might not be widely known, and her coloring (true or not) is never mentioned in any event.

2 hours ago, Orion2 said:

Quentyn should not have near enough dragon blood to have dark purple eyes and white blond hair.

We're still talking about YG, right?  IIRC, YG is merely described as blond, not white blond, silver blond, golden blond, or any other special kind of blond.  His eyes are either dark blue, dark purple or black, depending on the light.

I'm not sure dragon blood is necessary for any of this, but if it is, Mellario can be one of the last of the Blackfyres, as I suspect she probably is.

 

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2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

From that perspective even though we know that Jon is truly a Targaryen, he is unlikely to be a female line Targ. On the other hand, fAegon is likely a female line Blackfyre. The Blackfyre line begins with Daena Targaryen (who believed herself born to be a dragonrider), but she had no daughters. Did Rohanne of Tyrosh have dragon blood and was that part of why Aegon IV arranged that marriage? Rohanne's daughter Calla continued the female Blackfyre line, which we may find out passed to fAegon from Serra via a chain of marriages that connected various female dragon blood lines from the free cities as well as Southern Westeros.

Actually, it seems unlikely that Calla Blackfyre had any children. She was supposed to marry Bittersteel and George has actually revealed that Bittersteel never had children, apparently. This may - but doesn't have to - mean that Calla also didn't have any children.

But, of course, if there are still any Blackfyre descendants out there they are either descended from a female branch of the family or they are (descendants of) Blackfyre bastards. Because the male line of House Blackfyre is extinct.

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