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Why I think (f)Aegon has the blood to ride a Targaryen dragon.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Hippocras said:

I have a bit of a fascination with the Sphynx riddle and the mention of the female line being the surviving one. I tend to wonder if that will in fact play out in a way that relates to the dragonriders. 

Unfortunately filling in the theory requires evidence from family trees that we just don't seem to have. But to me it is fascinating trying to trace the female lines from the Dance onward and speculate where they might have passed through unnoticed since the female line did not carry the Targaryen name.

How about Alerie Tyrell nee Hightower, daughter of Leyton Hightower and one of his 3 former wives, and mother of (among various less interesting sons) Loras Tyrell, as well as a daughter Margaery.  She's got silver hair.

Edited by Mister Smikes

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3 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

How about Alerie Tyrell nee Hightower, daughter of Leyton Hightower and one of his 3 former wives, and mother of (among various less interesting sons) Loras Tyrell, as well as a daughter Margaery.  She's got silver hair.

Yes, the Hightowers likely passed on female line dragon blood to several families in the South, though once again tracing exactly who is impossible with the info we have.

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34 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Yes, the Hightowers likely passed on female line dragon blood to several families in the South, though once again tracing exactly who is impossible with the info we have.

Maybe they got their dragon blood through one of Egg’s sisters ? We already know that they got married and had children, it is the most likely scenario if this theory is true.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

Maybe they got their dragon blood through one of Egg’s sisters ? We already know that they got married and had children, it is the most likely scenario if this theory is true.

Oh it is fact, not theory as far as the Hightowers are concerned. Princess Rhaena had 6 Hightower daughters. We don't know which families those daughters married into though, so we don't know where the female line went from there.

Edited by Hippocras

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On 5/4/2021 at 1:09 AM, Mister Smikes said:

Surely, though, it is a fair question, when dealing with a mystery man and master of disguise, to ask ourselves how much we really know about him.  You seem confident, for instance, that you know he is telling the truth when he says he hates magic and mages.

The entire story about Varys' castration is told in a manner as to suggest he's telling the truth there.

And a woman disguising as a eunuch disguising (occasionally) as a woman is a comedy setting, not something I can take seriously as an idea for ASoIaF.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The entire story about Varys' castration is told in a manner as to suggest he's telling the truth there.

This seems very subjective.

He's not obviously lying, if that's what you mean.  But then again he is a mummer. Is there some specific aspect of his tale that you think somehow guarantees its truthfulness?

My point is not necessarily that Varys is a woman, nor that he is an intact male, nor he does or does not hate magicians.  My point is that he is a mummer, a foreign spy, and a master of disguise, and we have every reason to be skeptical about the things he chooses to present about himself.

Quote

And a woman disguising as a eunuch disguising (occasionally) as a woman is a comedy setting, not something I can take seriously as an idea for ASoIaF.

Sounds very subjective to me.  All I can say is that it is perfectly possible you will not be able to take the final volumes of this series seriously.

Maybe you take the lurid, over-the-top, funfest that is ASOIAF a bit more "seriously" than I do.

The series already features girls disguised as boys, and women being mistaken for men.  A plump middle-aged woman (and mummer and master of disguise) trying to pass herself off as a completely junk-less eunuch seems less of a stretch to me.   It does not even involve corpses rising from the dead or magical flying fire-breathing dragons hatching from fossilized eggs.

But again, I'm not saying it is necessarily so.  I'm just saying, why would you trust Varys about anything?

Edited by Mister Smikes

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Posted (edited)
On 5/3/2021 at 1:34 PM, Lord Varys said:

I don't think that 'theory' has any merit at all.

 

Varys is a woman? What the hell? 

19 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

I'm not sure dragon blood is necessary for any of this, but if it is, Mellario can be one of the last of the Blackfyres, as I suspect she probably is.

 

Proof, please. We need enough proof to determine if your theory is Regular Crackpot, Insane Crackpot, or Not As Crackpot. 

11 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

I'm not sure dragon blood is necessary for any of this, but if it is, Mellario can be one of the last of the Blackfyres, as I suspect she probably is.

 

Or Lady Rhaena, sister of Lady Baela. 

 

Edited by Jaenara Belarys

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:
Varys is a woman? What the hell? 

We don't really know what he is, since he is a mummer and master of disguise.  Fans have also suggested, based on various arguable "clues", that he may be an intact male.  Or maybe he really is a eunuch, but is for some reason lying about how he became one.   Or not.

Quote

Proof, please. We need enough proof to determine if your theory is Regular Crackpot, Insane Crackpot, or Not As Crackpot. 

I believe  you are here referring the suggestion that Mellario might be a Blackfyre.

I can't give you "proof".  It is a theory.  Like Sandor = Gravedigger; or R+L=J.   If you want "proof" you will have to wait for future volumes.

I can discuss the reasons for my suspicion, but it does not have to be with you,  I don't actually owe you my time.  If you want a conversation, maybe give me a little less attitude.  Otherwise I'm perfectly happy to wait for the next volume to find out how many of my guesses are correct.

Edited by Mister Smikes

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6 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

I believe  you are here referring the suggestion that Mellario might be a Blackfyre.

 

When I read the pages on Wiki of Ice and Fire, they always present all the proof that backs them up and the stuff that doesn't. If you do not present proof, then I will consider this a Insane Crackpot with no evidence to back it up. So please, provide what evidence you have. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

When I read the pages on Wiki of Ice and Fire, they always present all the proof that backs them up and the stuff that doesn't.

I have posted my ideas elsewhere as well.  And the editors of the Wiki don't owe you a conversation on demand either.

Quote

If you do not present proof, then I will consider this a Insane Crackpot with no evidence to back it up.

So what?  You're just threatening me with rudeness.  Be as rude and unpleasant as you like.  I don't care.

Quote

So please, provide what evidence you have. 

I touched on this topic  upthread elsewhere.   In brief, there are (1) reasons to suspect fAegon has Blackfyre connection; (2) reasons to suspect Lemore is fAegon's mother; and (3) reasons to suspect Lemore is Mellario.  Put them together and Mellario might be a Blackfyre.  Maybe you could tell me which of these 3 ideas you consider "crackpot" and unsupported by any evidence, so I don't waste my time unnecessarily.  There is also that quote from the World Book about Norvosi noblewomen, shaved heads, and wigs, that is convenient for concealing Valyrian heritage.

Edited by Mister Smikes
realized it was not upthread

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Posted (edited)
On 5/4/2021 at 2:53 PM, Hippocras said:

I have a bit of a fascination with the Sphynx riddle and the mention of the female line being the surviving one. I tend to wonder if that will in fact play out in a way that relates to the dragonriders. 

Unfortunately filling in the theory requires evidence from family trees that we just don't seem to have. But to me it is fascinating trying to trace the female lines from the Dance onward and speculate where they might have passed through unnoticed since the female line did not carry the Targaryen name.

From that perspective even though we know that Jon is truly a Targaryen, he is unlikely to be a female line Targ. On the other hand, fAegon is likely a female line Blackfyre. The Blackfyre line begins with Daena Targaryen (who believed herself born to be a dragonrider), but she had no daughters. Did Rohanne of Tyrosh have dragon blood and was that part of why Aegon IV arranged that marriage? Rohanne's daughter Calla continued the female Blackfyre line, which we may find out passed to fAegon from Serra via a chain of marriages that connected various female dragon blood lines from the free cities as well as Southern Westeros.

Daena's sister Elaena left a complex chain of descendants that included serveral daughters. Where their bloodlines passed from there is not clear at all. However they were in place to perhaps have bred descendants in the Stormlands and Westerlands, leading via Johanna to the Lannisters we know and love. However it is moments where the bloodlines reconnect that IMO will prove the most interesting. So it is not just Elaena's daughters, but where they connect with the other Targ branches that creates the dragon blood *resonance* let's call it.

The family trees simply are not complete enough to really trace it. Still I like to think of it as an interesting feminist idea to make such a complicated history revolving around male heredity only for the real story to be buried in the female line.

While I agree with your last sentence, I think if you truly embrace the idea, then you need to throw out the idea of someone being a true “Targaryen”.  The Targaryen last name is a legal fiction who’s significance over the years lost true import outside of the political power it brought.

You can think of the Targaryen line at the time of the Rebellion as a line that really started by Viserys II, who could neither hatch nor ride a dragon, and the daughter of a Lynesse banker.  Not one member of that line was successful at hatching a dragon.  Until Danaerys.  Of course assuming that Danaerys was truly of that line…

The Targaryen line was only a paternal one only consisting of “legitimate” children.  It was a line that had as much Rhoynish blood as Valyrian blood.  

The Blackfyre “line” became a similar legal fiction.  Also apparently only dealing with paternal “legitimate” children as ironic as that is.  

To say the male line ended is only to say that there still exists people who were descended from Daemon Blackfyre, just not directly descended paternally and/or legitimately.

There is technically one example in the series of a maternal line represented through name.   And that’s from the Black Pearl brothel, which is a maternal line existing mother to daughter dating back Aegon IV’s daughter with the original Black Pearl.  

Which may be why Illyrio grins at the mention.  Maybe the one existing “maternal” line springing from House Blackfyre also exists in a brothel or perhaps a Lynese pillow house.

But ultimately the real issue is who in the story has a blood line that most closely resembles the bloodlines of Aegon and his sister wives who through incestuous mean were kept fairly linear for quite a time.

And probably that would take a combination of bloodlines from those Targaryen off shoots that branched off in House Velaryon, House Baratheon, Plumm, Longwater, etc.  And probably from a few whore houses that would have been frequented by randy Targaryen princes.

Edited by Frey family reunion

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2 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

This seems very subjective.

He's not obviously lying, if that's what you mean.  But then again he is a mummer. Is there some specific aspect of his tale that you think somehow guarantees its truthfulness?

It is the complete change of Varys' demeanor when he talks to Tyrion about his castration. He is asked about that earlier and then he refuses to talk about it. Later he himself brings it up again and he drops all pretense when talking to Tyrion. He voice gets deeper and all the false effeminate behavior is gone.

And we see this kind of thing happening again in the Epilogue when he talks to Kevan about Aegon.

This is not Varys playing a role, it is about Varys no longer playing a role and being truthful.

That said - he still might not tell the whole truth. But the rough story of his castration should be accurate.

George gave us sufficient information about Varys to figure out on our when he is more likely to lie and when he is more likely to tell the truth.

Not to mention that Varys very rarely tells direct lies, anyway.

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1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

So what?  You're just threatening me with rudeness.  Be as rude and unpleasant as you like.  I don't care.

 

Oh no, I'm just stating that I won't believe your theory. 

 

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

There is also that quote from the World Book about Norvosi noblewomen, shaved heads, and wigs, that is convenient for concealing Valyrian heritage.

True, but Lemore doesn't shave herself all over. Hair dye?

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

And the editors of the Wiki don't owe you a conversation on demand either.

When did I say that they did? I'm just saying that the wiki says the proof that backs them up and the proof against. I was simply asking you to present evidence, but it appears you're above that. 

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I think the 3 heads of the dragon, but "one of them does not necessarily have to BE a Targaryen" either applies to Aegon or Tyrion...

He may ride a dragon and still not have that magical Aryan blood that everyone is obsessed with.

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20 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:
 

Oh no, I'm just stating that I won't believe your theory. 

That's fine. 

20 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

True, but Lemore doesn't shave herself all over. Hair dye?

Maybe.  That's what other people on the Shy Maid are doing.  The Norvosi customs are relevant to her identity as Mellario of Norvos; her identity as Septa Lemore of the Shy Maid is another matter.  I also don't much care to be unduly focused on whether she shaves between her legs or not, regardless of whether the Norvosi customs technically require it.  I see no need to assume that Mellario is a a true believer of the Norvosi faith.

20 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

I was simply asking you to present evidence, but it appears you're above that. 

I gave you one piece of arguable evidence (the World Book clue).  I also asked you a question so I could determine what aspects of my theory you were disputing.  Seems to me, that if you were interested in a conversation, you could have answered my question. 

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2 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Maybe you could tell me which of these 3 ideas you consider "crackpot" and unsupported by any evidence, so I don't waste my time unnecessarily

Sorry, I honestly didn't see that. Anyway:

1. fAegon absolutely has a Blackfyre connection

2. This one I consider a little crackpot

3. This also, but not as much as the second one since you provided a bit of evidence. 

2 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

In brief, there are (1) reasons to suspect fAegon has Blackfyre connection; (2) reasons to suspect Lemore is fAegon's mother; and (3) reasons to suspect Lemore is Mellario.  Put them together and Mellario might be a Blackfyre.

 

 

3 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

I see no need to assume that Mellario is a a true believer of the Norvosi faith.

But that's the problem. If Mellario worships Norvoshi gods, then why does she seem so sincere about the Seven?

 

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It is important for everyone to accept that Varys can not have children. It is important for people to write him off. If he had Targish blood then we would be wondering about his past, present or future offspring. What is he really up to? He would also not have his job? Grrm is the boss here. He borrows a lot from “ real” history. 


The Targaryen bloodline seems similar to the Ptolemies, the Habsburg’s, the Plantagenets, or any inherited bloodline. In a generation or two something happens and it gets messed up. The movie “ the Lion in Winter” is based on true events.  Wars ensue.
 

People thrive on the chaos. People like LF. LF and Varys are similar actors.

Democracy is less bloody fix or could be. We can see how fragile that is. What you need is propaganda, a story, resources and some time. A religion helps. Read about Emperor Constantine and give it a critical think. You are not supposed to think about it with a historic lens, but you can. The ex president coopted religious sentiments. He is all but constructed out of paper mache, and it is so obviously just for money.

It is easy to discredit other people using existing prejudices. Purity is immediately a dubious, exploitable word. I don’t know, could you imagine people in power dying because so and so is the rightful queen/ king because it was just a way of acquiring or defending power and property? Henry VII was from an illegitimate female bloodline, specifically, legally excluded from inheriting. His wife had a better bloodline and so did some royalty from other countries. Oops. So we can always have right of conquest and dragons are very powerful weapons.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Sorry, I honestly didn't see that. Anyway:

1. fAegon absolutely has a Blackfyre connection

Okay, thanks.  That narrows things a bit.

Quote

2. This one I consider a little crackpot

We're talking about the suspicion that Lemore is fAegon's mom.  I probably should have listed this last, since some of the points connect to points 1 and 3.

- Most obviously, Lemore is old enough to be fAegon's mother, has stretch marks on her belly, and Tyrion openly wonders what fAegon means to Lemore.  Tyrion evidently has the impression fAegon means something special to Lemore.  It's not like he spends any time wondering what fAegon means to Yandry or Ysilla or Griff or Haldon the Halfmaester.

- Lemore identifies herself, at one point, as the daughter of a merchant.  This could be a false identity, but it could also be a clue.  The merchant we know of, and who we know has some connection to Lemore, is Illyrio.   One Blackfyre theory is that Young Griff is descended from Illyrio and Serra -- Serra being a Blackfyre (Speak up if you don't know this one, and I'll elaborate).  But this suggests that Illyrio and Serra would be too old to be direct parents of fAegon, and that Lemore represents an interim generation.  Hence, if the Golden Company is supporting Young Griff because of his Blackfyre heritage, this suggests the possibility that Lemore also has Blackfyre heritage, and is fAegon's mom.

- A third point depends on the idea that Lemore is Mellario (see below).  15 years ago, Mellario threw a tantrum because she did not want to be separated from her children, and specifically from Quentyn.  And yet now she spends all her time in Norvos, supposedly separated from all her children, including Quentyn.  Mellario's presence in-and-around Norvos makes more sense if one of her children is with her.  In other words, Fake Aegon may be Real Quentyn.

Quote

3. This also, but not as much as the second one since you provided a bit of evidence. 

We're talking about the suspicion that Lemore is Mellario.

- GRRM deliberately sets up a mystery about Lemore's identity; but there are only a very limited number of named identifiable people we can suspect of being Lemore.  I'm not sure who you would propose.  We have at any event reached a point in the narrative where GRRM ought to start bringing the threads of the story together, rather than generating brand new mysteries involving brand-new characters.

- We first meet Lemore and Young Griff halfway down the Pentos-to-Norvos road, and they evidently did not come from Norvos.  The last we heard about Mellario's whereabouts, she was in Norvos.

- Lemore is a "Lady"; so is Mellario.

- Lemore is "over 40"; so is Mellario.

- Lemore has stretch marks from giving birth; Mellario has given birth three times.

- The crew of the Shy Maid are orphans of the Greenblood, suggesting a connection to Dorne.  Mellario, being Doran's wife, has a connection to Dorne.

- Lemore likes bathing in the Rhoyne or its tributary; Mellario lives in Norvos, alongside a tributary of the Rhyone.

- Lemore may be fAegon's mom (see point 2 above).  One of Mellario's children, Quentyn, is the same age as the real Aegon, and hence could plausibly be fAegon (which of course implies fQuentyn is Someone Else)

- Ashara Dayne, who some theories name to be Lemore, is dead; and moreover, is too young, as she would not be over 40; and more over, has no known motive to be supporting a Blackfyre pretender.

- Elia Martell, who some theories name to be Lemore, is dead; and moreover, her involvement would be inconsistent with evidence of Blackfyre involvement.

Quote

But that's the problem. If Mellario worships Norvoshi gods, then why does she seem so sincere about the Seven?

Lemore does not seem particularly sincere about the Faith of the Seven.  But in any event, I would guess that the Faith of the Seven was the traditional faith of the Blackfyres, if only for political reasons, because they hope to retake Westeros some day.  I don't know if Mellario worshipped Norvosi gods of not.  But her identity as a Norvosi noblewoman gave her an excuse for concealing her Targaryen coloring, without looking like she was up to something.

Edited by Mister Smikes

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Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't.  The only way he gets on board is by marrying Daenerys.  He will have to submit and take on a supporting role.  He gets to ride a dragon if he has the humility to do that.  

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