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Angel Eyes

Robb's not a good brother to Sansa

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3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Cersei was unable or unwilling to stop Joffrey from having Ned executed and Joffrey often slips the ropes; she tells him that hitting a woman isn't kingly, he gets around it by having his Kingsguards beat her. What happens if Meryn Trant hits her wrong on the head, Sansa suffers an aneurysm and dies?

Honestly... aside from Littlefinger not having a plaything later on in the story, not much. Robb still fails, Catelyn still goes undead psycho, Joffrey still dies, Tyrion still gets blamed for it. 

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4 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

First off, three high-worth prisoners died on his watch; while two might have been politically expedient (Rhaenys and Aegon) and pragmatic, the third was not, and potentially politically disastrous (Elia). Second, Tywin wasn’t at the Red Keep until Book 3; what would have happened if Joffrey felt like executing Sansa after Robb won at Oxcross? “Ser Ilyn, bring me her head!” 

Tyrion would've slapped down. I am completely in favor of 

"We've had vicious kings and we've had idiot kings, but l don't know if we've ever been cursed with a vicious idiot for a king!"
 
Also, Tywin wasn't even in the Red Keep. And I hate to say it, but their deaths were needed for the new regime to ever be secure. 
 
 

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He's also a little slow and doesn't even realize that Sansa's letters are being overseen by the queen and blames her for not giving key details. I think he's written as another doomed gullible Stark who goes South...but I can't really fault Robb too much, he's dead. Sansa is set up to be the smarter player. Cat's actions will bear out in the end. It was the correct choice, for the long term survival of House Stark. 

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11 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Tyrion would've slapped down. I am completely in favor of 

"We've had vicious kings and we've had idiot kings, but l don't know if we've ever been cursed with a vicious idiot for a king!"
 
Also, Tywin wasn't even in the Red Keep. And I hate to say it, but their deaths were needed for the new regime to ever be secure. 
 
 

Was Elia’s death needed? I already said that Rhaenys and Aegon’s deaths made sense, but Elia's death made no sense from a political point of view.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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15 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Cersei was unable or unwilling to stop Joffrey from having Ned executed and Joffrey often slips the ropes; she tells him that hitting a woman isn't kingly, he gets around it by having his Kingsguards beat her. What happens if Meryn Trant hits her wrong on the head, Sansa suffers an aneurysm and dies?

Ned's death took everyone by surprise. Cersei, and Tyrion, are not going to let that happen again. Sure, it's possible, but like I said, highly unlikely. And this is part of the reason Tyrion put a stop to the beating in the bailey; not because Joffrey was out of line in punishing her for Robb's crimes, but that this level of punishment was too risky. Again, Sansa's death = Jaime's death.

But Robb is not going to be able to convince his bannermen that they must give up the kingslayer just because Sansa might die. And remember, back when all of these negotiations were taking place, Bran and Rickon were still safe and sound in Winterfell.

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Apologies for not reading the entire thread.  But it seems to me the entire premise of the thread is wrong.

The best thing Rob can do for his sisters is win the war, or at least do sufficiently well to make a hostage exchange feasible.  In the meantime he has clearly informed the Lannisters that his sisters have enough value to him to him that they ought to keep them alive as coin for future negotiations, but perhaps not so much value that they can win the war automatically by threatening to murder them in exchange for Rob's surrender.  If the Lannisters win the war, then Rob's sisters are not safe anywhere.  And the Lannisters DID win the war.   So how can one argue that Rob should have given the Lannisters even more power over him by treating his sisters as though they were the be-all and end-all of his existence?

Those are the strategic considerations.  Then there are the moral considerations.  I question the assumption that, merely because Sansa was his sister, Rob had a moral duty to her life as being incomparably more valuable than that of anyone and everyone else, including the many many people who were giving their lives to the war against the Lannisters.  Exactly how many smallfolk and soldiers should Rob have sacrificed to save Sansa?

Sansa believes in the ideal of the True Knight.  Therefore she believes that it is the role of the True Knight to defend the weak.  She does not believe that the role of the True Knight is to sacrifice the weak on the alter of the worship of family allegiance.  That sounds more like Lannister moral values to me.

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59 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Ned's death took everyone by surprise. Cersei, and Tyrion, are not going to let that happen again. Sure, it's possible, but like I said, highly unlikely. And this is part of the reason Tyrion put a stop to the beating in the bailey; not because Joffrey was out of line in punishing her for Robb's crimes, but that this level of punishment was too risky. Again, Sansa's death = Jaime's death. 

Again we know all of this but Robb does not. He barely knows any of them but what he does know is that they've let two highly valuable hostages (Ned Stark and Elia Martell) get killed on their watch, despite the fact that both killings were against their own self interest. 

Why would you risk a third stupid execution, especially when the victim would be your little sister?

59 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

But Robb is not going to be able to convince his bannermen that they must give up the kingslayer just because Sansa might die. And remember, back when all of these negotiations were taking place, Bran and Rickon were still safe and sound in Winterfell.

This isn't a democracy, Robb doesn't have to convince his bannermen to let him do anything. 

He chooses to put Sansa (and potentially Arya) at incredible risk because he's worried about looking weak.

And how bad would looking weak be? Doran Martell is seen as weak and he's still got his head and the compliance of his bannermen. Roose Bolton is a very clever man, he didn't go against Robb because Robb looked weak, he betrayed Robb because  Robb was losing the war. Meanwhile when Robb was winning the war when he held Jaime and was able to trade him for Sansa. 

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11 minutes ago, Lady_Qohor said:

Again we know all of this but Robb does not. He barely knows any of them but what he does know is that they've let two highly valuable hostages (Ned Stark and Elia Martell) get killed on their watch, despite the fact that both killings were against their own self interest. 

Why would you risk a third stupid execution, especially when the victim would be your little sister?

Because Rob has no options that do not involve risk.

11 minutes ago, Lady_Qohor said:

This isn't a democracy, Robb doesn't have to convince his bannermen to let him do anything. 

Oh, so the little peons don't matter.  Only Rob and his close family matter.  Everyone else must sacrifice themselves.  I'm sure Rob's bannermen have daughters and sisters too.  And what will become of them, after these bannermen throw themselves into Rob's cause, only to have Rob treat the lives of one person as more valuable than the entire war effort?

11 minutes ago, Lady_Qohor said:

He chooses to put Sansa (and potentially Arya) at incredible risk because he's worried about looking weak.

He would potentially put them at even greater risk by looking weak.  Not to mention the many other people (who evidently don't count because they are not family) who he would put at risk by looking weak

 

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6 hours ago, SeanF said:

Maybe he could have sent pieces of Jaime to Kings Landing, as a start to negotiations.

Wouldn't that have guaranteed another Rains of Castamere?

12 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

He's also a little slow and doesn't even realize that Sansa's letters are being overseen by the queen and blames her for not giving key details

That's true, but he has his mother to tell him that it's Cersei's letter. So therefore, he doesn't need to see it, so long as others see and point it out. You might have a different opinion. 

 

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4 hours ago, Lady_Qohor said:

Again we know all of this but Robb does not. He barely knows any of them but what he does know is that they've let two highly valuable hostages (Ned Stark and Elia Martell) get killed on their watch, despite the fact that both killings were against their own self interest. 

As I've laid out before, there isn't much politically that Robb can do to save Sansa except defeat the Lannisters. And even if we accept your premise that a trade is possible, the Lannisters have hardly acted in good faith. Even the alleged "good" Lannister, Tyrion, violated diplomatic norms by trying to steal the Stark's hostage. So even if we wished away all the other factors, Robb has no reason at all to think the Lannisters wouldn't just kill Sansa anyway, once he traded over his best trump card in negotiations. Terms require trust.

4 hours ago, Lady_Qohor said:

Why would you risk a third stupid execution, especially when the victim would be your little sister?

Risk is part of the game of thrones. Beyond that, Robb can't do anything for Sansa from Riverun. And although they are important to Robb, Sansa and Arya are only two people, and Robb the King needs to think about more than just his family.

4 hours ago, Lady_Qohor said:

This isn't a democracy, Robb doesn't have to convince his bannermen to let him do anything. 

Doesn't matter. Even dictators have to worry about and reward and listen to their most powerful supporters. Robb's bannermen made him king, and as he tells Cat in ACoK, they can unmake him if he dissapoints them too often. Democracy, dictatorship or feudal society, it does not matter. You still need your supporters to carry out your wishes.

4 hours ago, Lady_Qohor said:

He chooses to put Sansa (and potentially Arya) at incredible risk because he's worried about looking weak.

They are at incredible risk regardless of what Robb does. And if Robb looks weak, his sisters are probably at even greater risk, since why should the Lannisters fear the consequences of dealing harshly with a weak king?

4 hours ago, Lady_Qohor said:

And how bad would looking weak be? Doran Martell is seen as weak and he's still got his head and the compliance of his bannermen. Roose Bolton is a very clever man, he didn't go against Robb because Robb looked weak, he betrayed Robb because  Robb was losing the war. Meanwhile when Robb was winning the war when he held Jaime and was able to trade him for Sansa. 

Losing the war makes you look weak. 

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11 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

As I've laid out before, there isn't much politically that Robb can do to save Sansa except defeat the Lannisters. And even if we accept your premise that a trade is possible, the Lannisters have hardly acted in good faith. Even the alleged "good" Lannister, Tyrion, violated diplomatic norms by trying to steal the Stark's hostage. So even if we wished away all the other factors, Robb has no reason at all to think the Lannisters wouldn't just kill Sansa anyway, once he traded over his best trump card in negotiations. Terms require trust.

Risk is part of the game of thrones. Beyond that, Robb can't do anything for Sansa from Riverun. And although they are important to Robb, Sansa and Arya are only two people, and Robb the King needs to think about more than just his family.

Doesn't matter. Even dictators have to worry about and reward and listen to their most powerful supporters. Robb's bannermen made him king, and as he tells Cat in ACoK, they can unmake him if he dissapoints them too often. Democracy, dictatorship or feudal society, it does not matter. You still need your supporters to carry out your wishes.

They are at incredible risk regardless of what Robb does. And if Robb looks weak, his sisters are probably at even greater risk, since why should the Lannisters fear the consequences of dealing harshly with a weak king?

Losing the war makes you look weak. 

I think I could believe all that if it were not for the fact that at several points Robb knowingly upsets some of his most powerful bannermen. 

Namely that he executes Lord Karstark and breaks the Frey betrothal to marry Jeyne Westerling. And to the medieval mind, both these actions are far more grevious than swapping Jaime for Sansa. 

Robb was willing to upset his bannermen to bring justice for the Lannister boys and save Jeyne's honour but not to save the lives of his little sisters (who were in the hands of a family known for randomly killing highly valuable hostages).

You can argue about whether that makes him a good king or not, but it certainly makes him a very poor brother. 

Edited by Lady_Qohor

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On 5/4/2021 at 5:17 AM, Angel Eyes said:

(this could apply to Arya as well, but I'm focusing more on Sansa).

  • He never tries to trade for her, send men to rescue her or ensure her safety in any way while she's a hostage in King's Landing. And Joffrey takes any opportunity he can to have Sansa beaten, which occurs whenever Robb won a battle.
  • Whenever Catelyn interacts with Robb he never shows any sign of worrying for Sansa's safety until she gets married to Tyrion and Robb goes oh shit, I have no heirs because Bran and Rickon are dead (except not really) and tries to cut the Lannisters off at the pass by disowning Sansa and legitimizing Jon.
  • How would Robb have reacted if Joffrey executed Sansa because he felt like it (and this should be on Robb's mind since Joffrey had his father executed despite the possible political fallout), or if Sansa gets struck the wrong way and bleeds to death?

Robb essentially left Sansa to die. Not exactly the greatest brother to have.

Robb did try to trade Sansa and Arya ( which he believed was with the Lannisters ) for Martyn Lannister and Tion Frey . 

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22 hours ago, Lady_Qohor said:

Again we know all of this but Robb does not. He barely knows any of them but what he does know is that they've let two highly valuable hostages (Ned Stark and Elia Martell) get killed on their watch, despite the fact that both killings were against their own self interest. 

Why would you risk a third stupid execution, especially when the victim would be your little sister?

This isn't a democracy, Robb doesn't have to convince his bannermen to let him do anything. 

He chooses to put Sansa (and potentially Arya) at incredible risk because he's worried about looking weak.

And how bad would looking weak be? Doran Martell is seen as weak and he's still got his head and the compliance of his bannermen. Roose Bolton is a very clever man, he didn't go against Robb because Robb looked weak, he betrayed Robb because  Robb was losing the war. Meanwhile when Robb was winning the war when he held Jaime and was able to trade him for Sansa. 

No, everybody knows Ned's execution was Joffrey's snap decision. He stated so publicly, that he was taking Ned's head despite the wishes of his mother and his betrothed. Cersei is Joffrey's regent, so there is no reason to think that Joffrey will go rogue again and kill Sansa, especially now that they have Jaime.

Nevertheless, hostages do die for other reasons. Sansa almost died in the bread riots. Robb's Lannister boys died by treachery. Robb knows that but it still doesn't change the facts of the matter: Sansa is not his heir nor is she the key to Winterfell when all of this is being debated. By the time she is, it's too late because Jaime has already been sprung.

Elia Martell was killed 15 years ago while the Red Keep was being overrun and the city was being sacked. I doubt very much that her death played into Robb's thinking.

It's not about looking weak. It's about maintaining the support of your bannermen, then men who made you king. They can just as easily unmake you if they think you are sacrificing their well-being for your own emotional needs.

Doran Martell is not seen as weak, just perhaps overly cautious. Doran is not trading the eldest son of another great house for his sister or daughter. And this would be a different calculation in Dorne anyway because women can inherit there.

Roose Bolton is an opportunist. He betrayed Robb because he saw that his cause was lost, in part because he no longer had the kinglsayer.

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2 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

No, everybody knows Ned's execution was Joffrey's snap decision. He stated so publicly, that he was taking Ned's head despite the wishes of his mother and his betrothed. Cersei is Joffrey's regent, so there is no reason to think that Joffrey will go rogue again and kill Sansa, especially now that they have Jaime.

Nevertheless, hostages do die for other reasons. Sansa almost died in the bread riots. Robb's Lannister boys died by treachery. Robb knows that but it still doesn't change the facts of the matter: Sansa is not his heir nor is she the key to Winterfell when all of this is being debated. By the time she is, it's too late because Jaime has already been sprung.

Elia Martell was killed 15 years ago while the Red Keep was being overrun and the city was being sacked. I doubt very much that her death played into Robb's thinking.

It's not about looking weak. It's about maintaining the support of your bannermen, then men who made you king. They can just as easily unmake you if they think you are sacrificing their well-being for your own emotional needs.

Doran Martell is not seen as weak, just perhaps overly cautious. Doran is not trading the eldest son of another great house for his sister or daughter. And this would be a different calculation in Dorne anyway because women can inherit there.

Roose Bolton is an opportunist. He betrayed Robb because he saw that his cause was lost, in part because he no longer had the kinglsayer.

That's a good analysis and its a good argument for why Robb is a good king. However the question is whether Robb is a good brother. 

(Although I would question how to what extent Robb knows that the Ned thing won't happen again. He wasn't at the Sept of Baelor and he barely knows the Lannisters. He has no idea if Cersei, Tyrion or Tywin can control Joffrey, and he has very little idea how important Jaime is to Tywin - the guy can't be Tywin's heir after all) 

Robb leaves one (or potentially two) little sisters at considerable risk of danger because he doesn't want to upset his bannermen. Yet he is willing to upset his bannermen for the sake of marrying Jeyne and killing Lord Karstark. 

It seems that Sansa and Arya are way down on his list of priorities. 

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5 minutes ago, Lady_Qohor said:

That's a good analysis and its a good argument for why Robb is a good king. However the question is whether Robb is a good brother. 

(Although I would question how to what extent Robb knows that the Ned thing won't happen again. He wasn't at the Sept of Baelor and he barely knows the Lannisters. He has no idea if Cersei, Tyrion or Tywin can control Joffrey, and he has very little idea how important Jaime is to Tywin - the guy can't be Tywin's heir after all) 

Robb leaves one (or potentially two) little sisters at considerable risk of danger because he doesn't want to upset his bannermen. Yet he is willing to upset his bannermen for the sake of marrying Jeyne and killing Lord Karstark. 

It seems that Sansa and Arya are way down on his list of priorities. 

Being king takes precedence over being a brother. This is the main reason why Robb cannot put his personal feelings for Sansa above his duty.

Everything Joffrey says and does is written down and disseminated across the land. His words at Ned's execution would be no exception, considering this was a huge event in Westeros -- probably the most significant since Aerys' death. These words would have been relayed to Riverrun and Winterfell, just like any other castle in the realm. Robb and Cat, and everybody, would see that this was Joffrey going rogue as easily as they saw that the letter from Sansa was really a letter from the queen, veiled threats and all.

Of course they know how important Jaime is to Tywin, otherwise they wouldn't bother keeping him as a hostage.

Yes, he upset his bannermen to pursue his own heart, and look what that got him. And personally, I don't think Robb did this of his own volition; he was under the influence of one of grandma Maggie's love potions. But that's neither here nor there.

Yes, Sansa and Arya were not worth the kingslayer. If Robb could have it otherwise he would. But he can't, so he made the only decision that was available to him. In hindsight it was a mistake because if gave the Lannisters a wedge to get Winterfell for themselves, but hindsight is always 20/20.

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13 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Being king takes precedence over being a brother. This is the main reason why Robb cannot put his personal feelings for Sansa above his duty.

 

Exactly. Sansa's not about to come to harm. Cersei, I hope, will not let another valuable hostage be killed. Tyrion most certainly will not allow it, and Lord Tywin won't. 

3 hours ago, Golden lion of The Rock said:

Robb did try to trade Sansa and Arya ( which he believed was with the Lannisters ) for Martyn Lannister and Tion Frey . 

Do you honestly think that that trade would EVER go through? 

28 minutes ago, Lady_Qohor said:

It seems that Sansa and Arya are way down on his list of priorities. 

Why should Robb trade one of the best Lannister battle commanders for two useless girls? They'd be down on my list of priorities as well. 

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On 5/5/2021 at 11:14 AM, Angel Eyes said:

Was Elia’s death needed? I already said that Rhaenys and Aegon’s deaths made sense, but Elia's death made no sense from a political point of view.

 

I don't think Tywin is necessarily lying about not ordering her rape and murder, but I also doubt she'd have been harmed if he'd expressly forbidden it. And if he truly believed her death was unnecessary, or that her being spared may have somewhat sated House Martell's thirst for justice, she would have been.

What happens to Elia if she's merely raped or just forced to see the bodies of her dead children? Short of sending her to the silent sisters - and I don't see Oberyn allowing that to happen or not coming to her rescue if it does - she'll only fuel Doran and Oberyn's thirst for vengeance as she's a witness to who actually carried out the murder of Rhaenys at the very least. The Lannisters have written the events of that night so it's unknown who killed Elia & Rhaenys, and even suggested Aerys may have ordered it himself. Her being alive puts the blame squarely on Tywin. (And he doesn't seem to want that particular death attributed to him openly.)

I'm not arguing it was necessary to kill her as such, but I think once you kill either Elia or her children you've pretty much guaranteed the emnity of House Martell. I think it's "in for a penny, in for a pound" at that point. 

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4 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Exactly. Sansa's not about to come to harm.

Joffrey regularly has some of the most powerful warriors of his realm harm Sansa. Shit can turn ugly quick. Honestly she was probably gonna die that last time, before Tyrion saved her from getting pummeled by gauntlets to death like Mrs. Victarion. 

4 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Do you honestly think that that trade would EVER go through? 

No. Neither did Robb. Sansa was Robbs only real bartering chip, aside from the inanimate object Ice and his ludicrous dream of ruling 3/4 of Westeros. 

One might reach the conclusion that Robb didnt want to leave the bartering table until Lannisport runs crimson, despite his sisters standing. So to the OP, yes. Robb was not a good brother to Sansa.

4 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Why should Robb trade one of the best Lannister battle commanders for two useless girls? They'd be down on my list of priorities as well. 

If Jaime the non scout deployer is one of the best then I cant imagine what the worst is. His uncle I guess, didnt do much worse.

The Kingslayer should not be feared. Hated yes, respected even but Jaime on the field is not cause for panic.

4 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

two useless girls? They'd be down on my list of priorities as well. 

Useless! 

Quote

"I should have traded the Kingslayer for Sansa when you first urged it," Robb said as they walked the gallery. "If I'd offered to wed her to the Knight of Flowers, the Tyrells might be ours instead of Joffrey's. I should have thought of that."

"Your mind was on your battles, and rightly so. Even a king cannot think of everything."

Imo the greatest and potentially most calamitous mistake by the Young Wolf was his handling of Sansa. The king's heir. 

Now sure the sick kid and baby were alive and while their manner of death was totally out of left field, kids die all the time. And Sansas not a kid, but old enough to be an active piece on a cyvesse board. 

Its all the Imps now. Or Harrys, by which way I mean Littlefinger. Robb did his best to scratch her off the heir list and highlight Jon but thats probably going to lead to more death and northern infighting.

She could have been his. Wedding Tyrells or some shit. Maybe a prince in Essos, at the very least she could have stayed in base and married Robbs guy, looking at you Frey/Karstark. Or one of Robbs useless allies, Greyjoy/Arryn. Compounded with all this, its the right thing to do. Instead Jaime shits in a bucket. Thats kinda funny I guess.

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