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Orion2

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I'd like to point out that the vision Arya has of a giant smashing winterfell is probably just Sweet Robin and his doll. It'll bite off your prick every time. Honestly I really like this tho. It has a sense of humor and its unexpected. I hope more prophesies are like this in ASoIaF. 

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Posted (edited)

Counterpoint, giants we've seen so far haven't been true "great mountain giants" at all.

Rather the stories we hear from Old Nan, the song "the last of the giants", and the vision of a castle made of snow paint a Starkly different picture.

Quote

In Old Nan's stories, giants were outsized men who lived in colossal castles, fought with huge swords, and walked about in boots a boy could hide in. These were something else, more bearlike than human, and as wooly as the mammoths they rode. Seated, it was hard to say how big they truly were. Ten feet tall maybe, or twelve, Jon thought. Maybe fourteen, but no taller. Their sloping chests might have passed for those of men, but their arms hung down too far, and their lower torsos looked half again as wide as their upper. Their legs were shorter than their arms, but very thick, and they wore no boots at all; their feet were broad splayed things, hard and horny and black. Neckless, their huge heavy heads thrust forward from between their shoulder blades, and their faces were squashed and brutal. Rats' eyes no larger than beads were almost lost within folds of horny flesh, but they snuffled constantly, smelling as much as they saw.
They're not wearing skins, Jon realized. That's hair. Shaggy pelts covered their bodies, thick below the waist, sparser above. The stink that came off them was choking, but perhaps that was the mammoths. And Joramun blew the Horn of Winter, and woke giants from the earth. He looked for great swords ten feet long, but saw only clubs. Most were just the limbs of dead trees, some still trailing shattered branches. A few had stone balls lashed to the ends to make colossal mauls. The song never says if the horn can put them back to sleep.

A Storm of Swords - Jon II

I would point out that Brandon the Builder supposedly had the help of giants in building the Wall, and that it was Joramun and the Stark in Winterfell who put down the Night King.

So, I would suggest that true giants built out of ice and snow, which is why we have not found their giant castles. It also fits with the dream/prophesy of a giant in a castle made of snow!

Quote

We found it in a giant's grave, and no man o' us had ever seen a horn so big. That must have been why Mance got the notion to tell you it were Joramun's. He wanted you crows to think he had it in his power to blow your bloody Wall down about your knees. But we never found the true horn, not for all our digging. If we had, every kneeler in your Seven Kingdoms would have chunks o' ice to cool his wine all summer.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

While the Giant Horn burned by Mel is almost certainly not the horn of Joramun, it was found in a giant's grave. Even just the fact that they built graves, wrote songs, and had horns with runes on them indicate levels of sophistication we simply do not see in the giants so far.

I for one have long since stopped doubting the accuracy of Old Nan, but here again it seems that like the Wall, or Storms End for Mel's Shadow baby, the castle of the giants seemed to keep out the supernatural Others.

Quote

She remembered a story Old Nan had told once, about a man imprisoned in a dark castle by evil giants. He was very brave and smart and he tricked the giants and escaped . . . but no sooner was he outside the castle than the Others took him, and drank his hot red blood.

A Clash of Kings - Arya III

It would seem that like the Children can ward their caves, the Giants too could build and ward their constructions against the Others.

Ooooooh, I am the last of the giants,
my people are gone from the earth.
The last of the great mountain giants,
who ruled all the world at my birth.

Oh the smallfolk have stolen my forests,
they’ve stolen my rivers and hills.
And the’ve built a great wall through my valleys,
and fished all the fish from my rills.
In stone halls they burn their great fires,
in stone halls they forge their sharp spears.
Whilst I walk alone in the mountains,
with no true companion but tears.
They hunt me with dogs in the daylight,
they hunt me with torches by night.
For these men who are small can never stand tall,
whilst giants still walk in the light.
Oooooooh, I am the LAST of the giants,
so learn well the words of my song.
For when I am gone the singing will fade,
and the silence shall last long and long.

We know giants bury their dead, that the horn of Joramun woke giants from the earth, and that the sigil of the Umbers (who live very close to the Wall) is a Giant in broken chains.

I would suggest that like there is a supposed dragon binding horn, the horn of Joramun can bind the great mountain giants, possibly even after they are dead and buried.

So be careful, the only thing worse (but better for the reader!) than expecting the fantastical from a prophesy that results in the mundane, is expecting the mundane and being surprised by the fantastical!

Edited by Mourning Star

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13 hours ago, Orion2 said:

I'd like to point out that the vision Arya has of a giant smashing winterfell is probably just Sweet Robin and his doll. It'll bite off your prick every time. Honestly I really like this tho. It has a sense of humor and its unexpected. I hope more prophesies are like this in ASoIaF. 

Doubtful. All the other GoHH visions were representations of momentous events like Balon and Joffrey dying, the Red Wedding and such. It would be very incongruous for her to throw in a piddling matter about a doll.

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Doubtful. All the other GoHH visions were representations of momentous events like Balon and Joffrey dying, the Red Wedding and such. It would be very incongruous for her to throw in a piddling matter about a doll.

Ok, I haven't actually analyzed any of the other things that I saw when I was reading that. Whats the thought around the visions Arya has. I'll go read that cause I honestly haven't for a while

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1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

Counterpoint, giants we've seen so far haven't been true "great mountain giants" at all.

Rather the stories we hear from Old Nan, the song "the last of the giants", and the vision of a castle made of snow paint a Starkly different picture.

I would point out that Brandon the Builder supposedly had the help of giants in building the Wall, and that it was Joramun and the Stark in Winterfell who put down the Night King.

So, I would suggest that true giants built out of ice and snow, which is why we have not found their giant castles. It also fits with the dream/prophesy of a giant in a castle made of snow!

While the Giant Horn burned by Mel is almost certainly not the horn of Joramun, it was found in a giant's grave. Even just the fact that they built graves, wrote songs, and had horns with runes on them indicate levels of sophistication we simply do not see in the giants so far.

I for one have long since stopped doubting the accuracy of Old Nan, but here again it seems that like the Wall, or Storms End for Mel's Shadow baby, the castle of the giants seemed to keep out the supernatural Others.

It would seem that like the Children can ward their caves, the Giants too could build and ward their constructions against the Others.

Ooooooh, I am the last of the giants,
my people are gone from the earth.
The last of the great mountain giants,
who ruled all the world at my birth.

Oh the smallfolk have stolen my forests,
they’ve stolen my rivers and hills.
And the’ve built a great wall through my valleys,
and fished all the fish from my rills.
In stone halls they burn their great fires,
in stone halls they forge their sharp spears.
Whilst I walk alone in the mountains,
with no true companion but tears.
They hunt me with dogs in the daylight,
they hunt me with torches by night.
For these men who are small can never stand tall,
whilst giants still walk in the light.
Oooooooh, I am the LAST of the giants,
so learn well the words of my song.
For when I am gone the singing will fade,
and the silence shall last long and long.

We know giants bury their dead, that the horn of Joramun woke giants from the earth, and that the sigil of the Umbers (who live very close to the Wall) is a Giant in broken chains.

I would suggest that like there is a supposed dragon binding horn, the horn of Joramun can bind the great mountain giants, possibly even after they are dead and buried.

So be careful, the only thing worse (but better for the reader!) than expecting the fantastical from a prophesy that results in the mundane, is expecting the mundane and being surprised by the fantastical!

thank you so much for this reply:) it would be so cool if there where mountain giants like in the stories. I don't know...it adds a new scale of dynamics for prophesies to be both trifling and deadly serious. Its ok I think for them all to be serious, like in the lord of the rings, but I would be sooooooo happy if George has that conversation with Tolkien through ASoIaF. I would say the moment with sweet robin is actually fairly important cause right after that Petyr kisses Sansa, and what happens between those three and in the vale is surely very important. For me that scene is really poignant because Sansa cares so much about Winterfell. I don't know. Maybe it can be both? Like Sweet Robin is a metaphor for the Boltons using Winterfell and burning it when it doesnt mean anything to them, the same way sweet robin doesn't care that Sansa cares so much about her snow castle. 

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About mel's vision of a girl in grey riding a dying horse.

Quote

I have seen your sister in my fires, fleeing from this marriage they have made for her. Coming here, to you. A girl in grey on a dying horse, I have seen it plain as day. It has not happened yet, but it will

Quote

The girl. I must find the girl again, the grey girl on the dying horse. Jon Snow would expect that of her, and soon. It would not be enough to say the girl was fleeing. He would want more, he would want the when and where, and she did not have that for him. She had seen the girl only once. A girl as grey as ash, and even as I watched she crumbled and blew away.

Quote

"A girl in grey on a dying horse. Jon Snow's sister." Who else could it be? She was racing to him for protection, that much Melisandre had seen clearly. "

Mel's vision don't tell her that the girl is running from a marriage, that is her interpretation. She just knows that a girl in grey is fleeing on a dying horse.

And

Quote

"I saw water. Deep and blue and still, with a thin coat of ice just forming on it. It seemed to go on and on forever."

"Long Lake. What else did you see around this girl?"

"Hills. Fields. Trees. A deer, once. Stones. She is staying well away from villages. When she can she rides along the bed of little streams, to throw hunters off her trail."

Which means this girl is riding near a huge lake. However, looking at the map of the north there are only 3 lakes in the north and noone of them is near karhold. 

So did alys go through a very weird route to get to CB or the girl in grey might be other person?

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Orion2 said:

thank you so much for this reply:) it would be so cool if there where mountain giants like in the stories. I don't know...it adds a new scale of dynamics for prophesies to be both trifling and deadly serious. Its ok I think for them all to be serious, like in the lord of the rings, but I would be sooooooo happy if George has that conversation with Tolkien through ASoIaF. I would say the moment with sweet robin is actually fairly important cause right after that Petyr kisses Sansa, and what happens between those three and in the vale is surely very important. For me that scene is really poignant because Sansa cares so much about Winterfell. I don't know. Maybe it can be both? Like Sweet Robin is a metaphor for the Boltons using Winterfell and burning it when it doesnt mean anything to them, the same way sweet robin doesn't care that Sansa cares so much about her snow castle. 

So I think I prefer the idea that these prophesies can come true in more ways than one.

The best example is the that I suspect the Prince that was Promised prophesy will come true in three different ways for three different "heads of the dragon".

In the case of Sansa and the Snow Castle Giant, I would love to see real giants make a return, but if we are applying to the vision to the prophesy I think it actually could be rather dark.

Quote

I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow.

A Storm of Swords - Arya VIII

The Medusa imagery works wonderfully for the poisoning of Jof.

If we take the giant to represent Sweet Robin, there is also the disturbing reality that Sansa is currently at best enabling and at worst a willing participant in Littlefinger's plot to poison Robert Arryn, Sansa's cousin, and marry her to Harry the Heir.

One of the waycastles to the Eyrie is Snow.

Edited by Mourning Star

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

So I think I prefer the idea that these prophesies can come true in more ways than one.

The best example is the that I suspect the Prince that was Promised prophesy will come true in three different ways for three different "heads of the dragon".

In the case of Sansa and the Snow Castle Giant, I would love to see real giants make a return, but if we are applying to the vision to the prophesy I think it actually could rather dark.

The Medusa imagery works wonderfully for the poisoning of Jof.

If we take the giant to represent Sweet Robin, there is also the disturbing reality that Sansa is currently at best enabling and at worst a willing participant in Littlefinger's plot to poison Robert Arryn, Sansa's cousin, and marry her to Harry the Heir.

yes yes yes about Joff. Yeh I agree its pretty dark. I forgot about that part about the serpents, but it works perfectly, and points to Sansa being the one involved with the giants, whatever that second part means

edit* honestly I feel like the whole situation in the vale will probably be fairly dark. I was just on another thread and we where talking about a sorta crackpot idea that Quentyn is actually Young Griff and the Quentyn that died is fake??? have you heard of that?

Edited by Orion2
nanananananan

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13 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

So I think I prefer the idea that these prophesies can come true in more ways than one.

The best example is the that I suspect the Prince that was Promised prophesy will come true in three different ways for three different "heads of the dragon".

In the case of Sansa and the Snow Castle Giant, I would love to see real giants make a return, but if we are applying to the vision to the prophesy I think it actually could be rather dark.

The Medusa imagery works wonderfully for the poisoning of Jof.

If we take the giant to represent Sweet Robin, there is also the disturbing reality that Sansa is currently at best enabling and at worst a willing participant in Littlefinger's plot to poison Robert Arryn, Sansa's cousin, and marry her to Harry the Heir.

Actually there was a very good theory that the giant was LF because his father's sigil was related to the head of the titan

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, divica said:

Actually there was a very good theory that the giant was LF because his father's sigil was related to the head of the titan

I like this idea, especially because he was part of setting up the purple wedding.

Quote

He might even be slain. Tyrion had snorted in derision. "If Littlefinger is dead, then I'm a giant." More likely, the Tyrells were balking at the proposed marriage. Tyrion could scarcely blame them. If I were Mace Tyrell, I would sooner have Joffrey's head on a pike than his cock in my daughter.

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion IX

And the Baelish sigil being the head of the Titan of Braavos is an nice connection.
 

Quote

The Titan of Braavos. Old Nan had told them stories of the Titan back in Winterfell. He was a giant as tall as a mountain, and whenever Braavos stood in danger he would wake with fire in his eyes, his rocky limbs grinding and groaning as he waded out into the sea to smash the enemies. "The Braavosi feed him on the juicy pink flesh of little highborn girls," Nan would end, and Sansa would give a stupid squeak. But Maester Luwin said the Titan was only a statue, and Old Nan's stories were only stories.

A Feast for Crows - Arya I

Although it's Robert whom Sansa continues to compare with Jof.

Quote

The snow had stopped, and it was colder than before. She wondered if Lord Robert would shake all through their wedding. At least Joffrey was sound of body. A mad rage seized hold of her. She picked up a broken branch and smashed the torn doll's head down on top of it, then pushed it down atop the shattered gatehouse of her snow castle. The servants looked aghast, but when Littlefinger saw what she'd done he laughed. "If the tales be true, that's not the first giant to end up with his head on Winterfell's walls."

A Storm of Swords - Sansa VII

Although, I'm inclined to also stick with my original somewhat more literal assessment, even if it is in addition to other fulfillments of the prophesy.

One might even see the Titan as a "great mountain giant".

Quote

"here the last Titan yet stands, astride the stony shoulders of his brothers,"

 Winds Sample - Mercy

 

Edited by Mourning Star

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So its a prediction inside a prediction;) Is the Umber symbol a giant? and is that who is outside Winterfell?? I admit I like the actual giants best, but this is also possible

@Mourning Star

@divica

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27 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I like this idea, especially because he was part of setting up the purple wedding.

And the Baelish sigil being the head of the Titan of Braavos is an nice connection.
 

Although it's Robert whom Sansa continues to compare with Jof.

Although, I'm inclined to also stick with my original somewhat more literal assessment, even if it is in addition to other fulfillments of the prophesy.

One might even see the Titan as a "great mountain giant".

 

 

13 minutes ago, Orion2 said:

So its a prediction inside a prediction;) Is the Umber symbol a giant? and is that who is outside Winterfell?? I admit I like the actual giants best, but this is also possible

@Mourning Star

@divica

This is the quote

Quote

“My grandfather’s shield,” Petyr explained when he saw her gazing at it. “His own father was born in Braavos and came to the Vale as a sellsword in the hire of Lord Corbray, so my grandfather took the head of the Titan as his sigil when he was knighted.”

And the ghost of high heart likes to use sigils to represent people. And as was mentioned above the titan can be considered a giant. So it is possible that it is a vision about sansa salying LF.

Quote

The boy knelt before the gatehouse. “Look, here comes a giant to knock it down.” He stood his doll in the snow and moved it jerkily. “Tromp tromp I’m a giant, I’m a giant,” he chanted. “Ho ho ho, open your gates or I’ll mash them and smash them.” Swinging the doll by the legs, he knocked the top off one gatehouse tower and then the other.

If you think of LF as the doll/giant this can also represent LF atempt to get winterfell. And I am not saying that he will lead an army to winterfell. Just that he will want to do it and sansa could kill him before he puts his plan in motion.

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Posted (edited)

Yah I know but the umbers are also outside winterfell RN, sooo thats an angle on this too. But yeah, I agree everything in the vale world quite well

29 minutes ago, divica said:

 

This is the quote

And the ghost of high heart likes to use sigils to represent people. And as was mentioned above the titan can be considered a giant. So it is possible that it is a vision about sansa salying LF.

If you think of LF as the doll/giant this can also represent LF atempt to get winterfell. And I am not saying that he will lead an army to winterfell. Just that he will want to do it and sansa could kill him before he puts his plan in motion.

Ahh ys their sigil is a giant. its all coming together now

Edited by Orion2
nope

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8 minutes ago, Orion2 said:

Yah I know but the umbers are also outside winterfell RN, sooo thats an angle on this too. But yeah, I agree everything in the vale world quite well

Ahh ys their sigil is a giant. its all coming together now

The problem with the umbers is that it would be pretty anticlimatic. Besides the greatjon that has been a hostage for a long while they are super minor characters.

And grrm has prepared the way for an umber girl married to a wildling to reaper and maybe be in charge of last heart for a while.

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yeah and there's the part about sansa being involved. It really doesn't work. you're right 

12 minutes ago, divica said:

The problem with the umbers is that it would be pretty anticlimatic. Besides the greatjon that has been a hostage for a long while they are super minor characters.

And grrm has prepared the way for an umber girl married to a wildling to reaper and maybe be in charge of last heart for a while.

 

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20 hours ago, Orion2 said:

Ok, I haven't actually analyzed any of the other things that I saw when I was reading that. Whats the thought around the visions Arya has. I'll go read that cause I honestly haven't for a while

Quote

"The old gods stir and will not let me sleep. I dreamt I saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye. I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings. I dreamt of a roaring river and a woman that was a fish. Dead she drifted, with red tears on her cheeks, but when her eyes did open, oh, I woke from terror. All this I dreamt, and more."

The shadow with the burning heart is Mel's shadow baby butchering Renly, the golden stag. The man without a face, obviously a faceless man, waiting on a swinging bridge, the one that Balon fell from that connects the castles of Pyke. The drowned crow on his shoulder is Euron, who hired the FM. The roaring river and a woman that was a fish, Catelyn, drifting dead with red tears on her cheeks: she was thrown into the Green Fork after clawing her own cheeks upon seeing Robb die. And then her eyes opened to become Lady Stoneheart.

Quote

"I dreamt a wolf howling in the rain, but no one heard his grief. I dreamt such a clangor I thought my head might burst, drums and horns and pipes and screams, but the saddest sound was the little bells. I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow."

A wolf howling in the rain: Grey Wind at the Red Wedding. The clangor of drums, pipes, horns and screams: Red Wedding again. The little bells: Jinglebells being killed. The maid with purple serpents: Sansa and the hairnet at Joffrey's wedding. Same maid killing a giant in a snow castle: Sansa, but where and who?

Quote

"I see you. I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death ... You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel. I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours. Begone from here, dark heart. Begone!"

Basically, Arya is going to kill a lot of people, maybe something on the order of Summerhall.

But you see how all of these visions are about momentous, paradigm-shifting events? Kings dying, murder and mayhem . . . So why in the midst of all this would she throw in a vision about a silly little doll and a miniature snow castle?

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20 hours ago, Orion2 said:

it would be so cool if there where mountain giants like in the stories. I don't know...it adds a new scale of dynamics for prophesies to be both trifling and deadly serious.... I don't know. Maybe it can be both?

 

20 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I prefer the idea that these prophesies can come true in more ways than one.

I think we will find this to be true about most or all of the prophecies in ASOIAF as well as many of the legends, Old Nan's folk tales and even the story lines within the current time frame. 

I also think the author has given us a lot of humor to discover in the rich layers of the novels. It's not just humor for the sake of humor though, it's humor with a purpose. 

For instance, on the topic of giants, people have pointed out that the conflict between Wun Wun and Ser Patrek of King's Mountain might allude to a football game between the NY Giants (quarterback wears number 11 in recent years) and the Dallas Cowboys (Ser Patrek's sigil is a blue star on silver). I hope we will know more when the next book comes out, but there is a deeper meaning to the conflict between this representative of the Queen's Men (possibly symbolic of the Brotherhood Without Banners, which now serves Lady Stoneheart) and a giant (with many possible symbolic meanings already listed in this thread but also including Tyrion, who was described as "a giant come among us" by Maester Aemon). If Ser Patrek represents a "cow" boy, he may also represent the sacrifice of the white bull that is one of the real-world myths (I hope that is not an oxymoron) GRRM has used repeatedly in the story already (Gerold Hightower was known as the White Bull). So you get the football reference, which is funny, as well as possible foreshadowing of the future in store for ASOIAF characters.

21 hours ago, Orion2 said:

I would say the moment with sweet robin is actually fairly important cause right after that Petyr kisses Sansa, and what happens between those three and in the vale is surely very important.

Agreed. Petyr helps Sansa to build Winterfell; shows her how to do it. 

Sweetrobin has parallels to a number of key characters but this thread makes me think that the giant crashing the gates is like Joffrey. Both are the whiny, self-absorbed sons of queen characters. Sansa is suspected of poisoning Joffrey (although readers are given to believe that her role was inadvertent, if the purple amethyst from her hair net was truly the source of the poison); Sansa seems to be actively participating in poisoning Robert Arryn, even though she rationalizes it as a way to keep him calm when the bannermen are nearby and to ensure his safety when descending the mountain. Joffrey spoke of his intention to take Sansa by force, even though she was no longer his betrothed; Sweetrobin is always trying to crawl into bed with Sansa and to nuzzle her breasts. Joffrey was seen as the heir to King Robert but he was disposable; Sweetrobin is the heir to the Vale but an alternative heir is already being groomed to take the position if Sweetrobin dies or is killed. 

So what does it mean that Sweetrobin's "giant" was successful in breaking down the gates of Sansa's castle? I think it's a sexual metaphor. Joffrey never consummated with Sansa or with Margaery. Sweetrobin broke down the wall but did his giant really get inside of Winterfell? The doll was quickly beheaded. As you point out in the OP, "It'll bite off your prick every time."

Same thing kinda happened to Theon when he invaded Winterfell.

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5 hours ago, Seams said:

 

I think we will find this to be true about most or all of the prophecies in ASOIAF as well as many of the legends, Old Nan's folk tales and even the story lines within the current time frame. 

I also think the author has given us a lot of humor to discover in the rich layers of the novels. It's not just humor for the sake of humor though, it's humor with a purpose. 

For instance, on the topic of giants, people have pointed out that the conflict between Wun Wun and Ser Patrek of King's Mountain might allude to a football game between the NY Giants (quarterback wears number 11 in recent years) and the Dallas Cowboys (Ser Patrek's sigil is a blue star on silver). I hope we will know more when the next book comes out, but there is a deeper meaning to the conflict between this representative of the Queen's Men (possibly symbolic of the Brotherhood Without Banners, which now serves Lady Stoneheart) and a giant (with many possible symbolic meanings already listed in this thread but also including Tyrion, who was described as "a giant come among us" by Maester Aemon). If Ser Patrek represents a "cow" boy, he may also represent the sacrifice of the white bull that is one of the real-world myths (I hope that is not an oxymoron) GRRM has used repeatedly in the story already (Gerold Hightower was known as the White Bull). So you get the football reference, which is funny, as well as possible foreshadowing of the future in store for ASOIAF characters.

Agreed. Petyr helps Sansa to build Winterfell; shows her how to do it. 

Sweetrobin has parallels to a number of key characters but this thread makes me think that the giant crashing the gates is like Joffrey. Both are the whiny, self-absorbed sons of queen characters. Sansa is suspected of poisoning Joffrey (although readers are given to believe that her role was inadvertent, if the purple amethyst from her hair net was truly the source of the poison); Sansa seems to be actively participating in poisoning Robert Arryn, even though she rationalizes it as a way to keep him calm when the bannermen are nearby and to ensure his safety when descending the mountain. Joffrey spoke of his intention to take Sansa by force, even though she was no longer his betrothed; Sweetrobin is always trying to crawl into bed with Sansa and to nuzzle her breasts. Joffrey was seen as the heir to King Robert but he was disposable; Sweetrobin is the heir to the Vale but an alternative heir is already being groomed to take the position if Sweetrobin dies or is killed. 

So what does it mean that Sweetrobin's "giant" was successful in breaking down the gates of Sansa's castle? I think it's a sexual metaphor. Joffrey never consummated with Sansa or with Margaery. Sweetrobin broke down the wall but did his giant really get inside of Winterfell? The doll was quickly beheaded. As you point out in the OP, "It'll bite off your prick every time."

Same thing kinda happened to Theon when he invaded Winterfell.

Man thats interesting about Winterfell. What it means for the larger story I don't know...I want to think about that more. Theres also the part about Petyr helping her build it. He is instructing her in statecraft. So she's learning how to build a social situation in which all the things she loved about Winterfell can exist. But...Petyr is the real threat, so why is he helping her in this situation, metaphorically speaking. Maybe the metaphor only goes so far as learning statecraft. Maybe its just meant to be poignant? 

I would say that Winterfell is the emotional heart of the whole story. Those who defile the heart are cursed? idfk. Then why is Harrenhal cursed too. Harrenhal is cursed for everyone tho so thats different. Winterfell is just cursed for those who do bad things to it/the Starks. One could posit that Theon is healed by Winterfell too, and then there's the hot spring water in the walls, and I feel like the whole castle is kinda metaphorically alive. or literally who knows mate. I wanna live in Winterfell. 

Maybe the scene is about Sansa learning to fight back? I mean why does sweet robin even exist? is it just to fill me with rage??? idk man. Ok maybe its about injustice. Like why is this little mans in charge. But thats obvious. So in context what's the point of him? idk. 

Thats really cool about the giants btw I had no idea:)

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The shadow with the burning heart is Mel's shadow baby butchering Renly, the golden stag. The man without a face, obviously a faceless man, waiting on a swinging bridge, the one that Balon fell from that connects the castles of Pyke. The drowned crow on his shoulder is Euron, who hired the FM. The roaring river and a woman that was a fish, Catelyn, drifting dead with red tears on her cheeks: she was thrown into the Green Fork after clawing her own cheeks upon seeing Robb die. And then her eyes opened to become Lady Stoneheart.

A wolf howling in the rain: Grey Wind at the Red Wedding. The clangor of drums, pipes, horns and screams: Red Wedding again. The little bells: Jinglebells being killed. The maid with purple serpents: Sansa and the hairnet at Joffrey's wedding. Same maid killing a giant in a snow castle: Sansa, but where and who?

Basically, Arya is going to kill a lot of people, maybe something on the order of Summerhall.

But you see how all of these visions are about momentous, paradigm-shifting events? Kings dying, murder and mayhem . . . So why in the midst of all this would she throw in a vision about a silly little doll and a miniature snow castle?

The castle is built of snow. It doesn't have to be Winterfell. It just is with sweet robin. Where else could it be? And wtf is sansa doing slaying the giant metaphorically speaking**

Edited by Orion2

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