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OldLordWalder

Lysa and Cat husband swap

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Posted (edited)

What would've happened if Lysa had been betrothed to Brandon Stark and Catelyn to Jon Arryn? I mean, Catelyn was the elder daughter so it makes sense that she would marry the elder of the two men, Jon Arryn. Therefore, after Brandons murder, Lysa would be wed to Ned Stark. Would Catelyn miscarry as many children as Lysa did, and become ultra protective over her kids? I would assume that littlefinger would never be able to persuade Cat to murder Jon as he did with Lysa, who was much more infatuated with him.

Im currently re-reading the books and im still halfway through storm, so there might be some things im missing. 

Edited by OldLordWalder

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The marriage to Brandon Stark was pre-determined before the rebellion. it was something promised upon by Stark and Tully to marry the eldest son to the eldest daughter. This transaction promised Cat to a Stark. If Tully proposed the younger sister after Brandons death, it may have been considered a slight to Ned (basically saying he is not good enough for the oldest daughter). Too that end Cat was promised to marry a Stark, but it matters less which Stark. 

Lysa on the other hand was married out of necessity for the alliance between houses Tully, Arryn, and Stark during the rebellion.

I don't think there is a normal situation where someone like Lysa would usually marry such an old husband but it happens and Jon needed an heir.

Having said that, if Lysa married Ned, she would probably be miserable in the North (it took Cat time to learn to love it) and who knowns. maybe Lysa would have kept little finger and had a bastard with him and have poisoned Ned instead.

As for Cat... she is dutiful and had many children, so it's possible that even though she would not be close to her husband, she would still have many children by him. This also puts Cat in King's Landing for a long time, so it would not be so wild an idea that she would be a major player at court and have a complex relationship with Cersei (maybe even something resembling friendship.)
 

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The pact was the eldest son betrothed to the eldest daughter. I guess once Brandon was unavailable due to a sudden case of death by stupid, it wouldn't be a stretch to have Hooster say he'll honor the pact with the second son to the second daughter. I don't see any of the involved players, especially Ned and Lysa, being particularly happy. I'm pretty sure Ned would put his foot down on Littlefinger playing his games up North, and Catelyn isn't going to humor him like Lysa did, so a huge side effect might be Littlefinger's going to have to come up with a new angle to work to scheme his way to the top, if he's able to at all.

I guess the source of Lysa's miscarriages would have to be examined. Since that's less than certain and open for debate, you could spin any number of scenarios concerning her children with Ned. I think it's safe to say that Catelyn probably wouldn't miscarry as she's proven fertile in the main books and wouldn't have any reason to deliberately miscarry as Lysa might have(unless Littlefinger is making her tea). 

This gets me thinking if Ned wasn't required to uphold his brother's engagement, what might he have ended up doing?

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22 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

This gets me thinking if Ned wasn't required to uphold his brother's engagement, what might he have ended up doing?

He probably would have ended up being something like sir Garlan or Loras. A knight in the service of his older brother. 

or maybe he would found a cadet brach of house stark like the greystarks.

He and Ashara Dayne had a thing, so maybe they would have married. its a feasible relationship status wise, and it would increase the northern marriage pacts that defined Rickard Starks "southern ambitions"

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, OldLordWalder said:

What would've happened if Lysa had been betrothed to Brandon Stark and Catelyn to Jon Arryn? I mean, Catelyn was the elder daughter so it makes sense that she would marry the elder of the two men, Jon Arryn. Therefore, after Brandons murder, Lysa would be wed to Ned Stark. Would Catelyn miscarry as many children as Lysa did, and become ultra protective over her kids? I would assume that littlefinger would never be able to persuade Cat to murder Jon as he did with Lysa, who was much more infatuated with him.

Im currently re-reading the books and im still halfway through storm, so there might be some things im missing. 

If Lysa had been betrothed to Brandon instead the rebellion would not have happened. Littlefinger caused all the drama because of being in love with Cat. He would have caused problems for whoever Cat was promised to. 
 

Spoiler

im fairly certain that Lysa was aborting all of Her pregnancies to Arryn, so I don’t think Cat would have had a problem. (The evidence is somewhere in aSoS, it’s implied or discussed in Sansa’s POV I think)

Spoiler

. There is some indication that Lysa’s son may actually be Littlefinger’s son.

 

Edited by Solaris
Spelling because autocorrect

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I think Jon Arryn dies a lot sooner, I doubt Littlefinger would be able to show as much restraint if Catelyn was right under his nose in Kings Landing for years. 

It's also likely that you would end up with relatively few Stark or Arryn kids. Lysa likely has fertility issues from what sounds like a poorly carried out abortion so there won't be many kids at Winterfell. 

Meanwhile if you believe the theory that Robert Arryn is Littlefinger's son (not saying I do) then it's likely Jon Arryn is infertile. As such a Catelyn-Jon marriage would result in no kids and Harry Hardyng as heir to the Vale. 

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6 hours ago, Lady_Qohor said:

Meanwhile if you believe the theory that Robert Arryn is Littlefinger's son (not saying I do) then it's likely Jon Arryn is infertile. As such a Catelyn-Jon marriage would result in no kids and Harry Hardyng as heir to the Vale. 

Lysa had a number of miscarriages though. The speculation on that being she rid herself of any children Jon impregnated her with as a weird form of affection for Littlefinger and some kind of revenge for the tansy incident when she was younger.

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4 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Lysa had a number of miscarriages though. The speculation on that being she rid herself of any children Jon impregnated her with as a weird form of affection for Littlefinger and some kind of revenge for the tansy incident when she was younger.

Exactly she has a history of not being able to deliver a healthy baby. That could mean abortions or it could mean fertility issues.

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9 hours ago, Lady_Qohor said:

Exactly she has a history of not being able to deliver a healthy baby. That could mean abortions or it could mean fertility issues.

Fertility isn’t the issue, she’s getting pregnant. The issue is carrying a child to term. Sweetrobin is sickly or is potentially kept sick by his mother (a munchausen by proxy type scenario). It’s all suspect.

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23 hours ago, Lady_Qohor said:

I think Jon Arryn dies a lot sooner, I doubt Littlefinger would be able to show as much restraint if Catelyn was right under his nose in Kings Landing for years.

I'd assume that Littlefinger managed to rise up to the Small Council thanks to Lysa's influence. She would be the one that convinced Jon Arryn to bring him to King's Landing for a post in customs, and while Petyr's talents can't be denied, he surely relied on Lysa's help when a connection, recommendation or any kind of support was needed.

That wouldn't be the case with Catelyn, who wouldn't want anything to do with him.

23 hours ago, Lady_Qohor said:

It's also likely that you would end up with relatively few Stark or Arryn kids. Lysa likely has fertility issues from what sounds like a poorly carried out abortion so there won't be many kids at Winterfell.

There's no reason to blame Lysa for Jon Arryn's issues. Jon had already tried to have heirs with to wives before Lysa, and he failed. When he married Lysa, he was 67. Even with our current medical standards, at this age most men can't father children because of reduced sperm count, quality and mobility. And Jon wasn't precisely a healthy man, as Lysa tells as that he had already lost half his teeth when she married him.

Also, children sired by men as old as Jon (he was 76 when little Robert was born) have a much higher likelihood to suffer birth defects or development disorders. Because of that (and Littlefinger's willingess to kill the boy) I would bet on Robert being Jon's son.

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4 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

I'd assume that Littlefinger managed to rise up to the Small Council thanks to Lysa's influence. She would be the one that convinced Jon Arryn to bring him to King's Landing for a post in customs, and while Petyr's talents can't be denied, he surely relied on Lysa's help when a connection, recommendation or any kind of support was needed.

That wouldn't be the case with Catelyn, who wouldn't want anything to do with him.

I thought Catelyn considered Littlefinger a friend of Game of Thrones. Certainly she trusts him enough to convince Ned to trust him. 

That friendship would probably only strengthen if she was married to Jon. They would both spend time in the Vale and Catelyn would probably be lonely, given that she's possibly childless and her husband is much older than her. 

Littlefinger's proven himself clever and competent. Why wouldn't Catelyn advise her husband to take a seemingly clever, competent and trustworthy friend into his service. 

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@Lady_Qohor

Catelyn has always been a very responsible woman. She would be aware how it would look if she interceded to his old husband to favor a friend who has recently claimed to be in love with her and has even fought a duel for her hand. Ironically, Jon had no reason to suspect that Lysa was only trying to help a childhood friend, but if Catelyn was his wife, Petyr would be seen as a rival.

Catelyn didn't even visit Littlefinger when he was hurt after the duel, because she thought it was her duty towards Brandon Stark. I'm sure she would also have been dutiful towards Jon.

You might be right in saying that Catelyn considered Petyr a friend, and perhaps she'd have found a way to help him after some years. So perhaps he'd rised high too. Still, I think she wouldn't have helped him as much as Lysa did.

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Meanwhile if you believe the theory that Robert Arryn is Littlefinger's son (not saying I do) then it's likely Jon Arryn is infertile. As such a Catelyn-Jon marriage would result in no kids and Harry Hardyng as heir to the Vale. 

Jon Arryn managed to produce a couple of kids before he married Lysa in the books. Those kids died at birth or were stillborn.

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