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Alternate wives for Stannis

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How did we go from discussing wives for Stannis to arguing about who's committed the worst crimes?

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41 minutes ago, Kinola said:

How did we go from discussing wives for Stannis to arguing about who's committed the worst crimes?

Because there are fans that enjoy their favorite characters so much, not only do they have to prop them up at every opportunity, but tear other characters down. 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/6/2021 at 1:35 PM, Lord Lannister said:

On paper the match seems to make a bit of sense. But yeah, I always assumed that Robert arranged his marriage with Selysse. Just kind of seems his style. Robert was always a bully to those under his power he didn't like. I don't believe for one second the sleeping with the hotter cousin in his marriage bed thing was an accident for one second. But I guess any scenario that Stannis marries someone else would require Robert to be less of a dick(or to just not care in this instance which might be easier) or Stannis to deviate from his duty to his older brother. 

 

On 5/7/2021 at 12:53 AM, Minsc said:

 

I doubt Robert cared the slightest who Stannis married.  If Stannis had married on Robert's order that would have came up in one of Stannis's various sessions of complaining about everything while making himself out to be a martyr.

It's really difficult for me to say which one it is. On the one hand, it's probably true that Stannis would have at least mentioned his resentment for marrying Selyse at some point if it hadn't been his choice.

But on the other hand, I'm inclined to agree with Lord Lannister nonetheless. Partly because Stannis is, by GRRM's own admission, based on Tiberius, second emperor of Rome. Like Stannis, Tiberius was a highly efficient ruler and military figure who spent years sulking on an island, and he was also rumoured to have kept sinister company and participated in very dark actions. And they were both married to people whom they despised. Tiberius has a much more tragic story, though; he was already married to a woman he loved when Augustus, his stepfather, forced him to divorce and marry Augustus' daughter, Julia, instead. Tiberius was heartbroken and even followed his ex-wife around the marketplace one day out of sheer misery. Julia, meanwhile, thought Tiberius was beneath him and slept around with whoever she felt like. Even Augustus got embarrassed by the rumours so he had Julia divorced from Tiberius and exiled to another island. All this mistreatment by Augustus and Julia has been speculated as being reasons for Tiberius' later deteriorations, socially and possibly mentally.

Now, that story definitely doesn't suit Stannis, since the only woman he seems to have had any attraction to was Melisandre, but I don't think he would have chosen to marry Selyse. When would he have ever met her? It's not like he was a fan of the Reach in the first place, and the marriage of Stannis with House Florent reeks of a political move on the Iron Throne's part to keep the Tyrells in check after they sided against the rebels. It's surely not a coincidence that Stannis married a woman who happened to be related to the ancient rivals of House Tyrell. Maybe Robert didn't think of it himself, fine, but maybe Jon Arryn gave Robert the idea? It's not like Stannis was going to disobey or anything. Maybe he didn't bother complaining about it because he must have reckoned that he would have been unhappy with any woman he was made to marry, and he just didn't consider that he might develop feelings for his wife. Self-loathing is definitely a part of Stannis' character; he's always measuring himself as inferior to his big brother, and Robert loved to bully him about that as well. Plus then you have Robert being a highly popular man, and so Stannis becomes disillusioned with what most people find attractive. Plus, nobody was exactly interested in him, either for platonic or romantic reasons. 

 

This turned into a bit of a stream-of-conscious rambling, but I can make it work that Stannis wouldn't openly complain about an arranged marriage. He doesn't seem to have had any use for female sexuality until he met Mel.

Edited by James Steller

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51 minutes ago, James Steller said:

 

It's really difficult for me to say which one it is. On the one hand, it's probably true that Stannis would have at least mentioned his resentment for marrying Selyse at some point if it hadn't been his choice.

But on the other hand, I'm inclined to agree with Lord Lannister nonetheless. Partly because Stannis is, by GRRM's own admission, based on Tiberius, second emperor of Rome. Like Stannis, Tiberius was a highly efficient ruler and military figure who spent years sulking on an island, and he was also rumoured to have kept sinister company and participated in very dark actions. And they were both married to people whom they despised. Tiberius has a much more tragic story, though; he was already married to a woman he loved when Augustus, his stepfather, forced him to divorce and marry Augustus' daughter, Julia, instead. Tiberius was heartbroken and even followed his ex-wife around the marketplace one day out of sheer misery. Julia, meanwhile, thought Tiberius was beneath him and slept around with whoever she felt like. Even Augustus got embarrassed by the rumours so he had Julia divorced from Tiberius and exiled to another island. All this mistreatment by Augustus and Julia has been speculated as being reasons for Tiberius' later deteriorations, socially and possibly mentally.

Now, that story definitely doesn't suit Stannis, since the only woman he seems to have had any attraction to was Melisandre, but I don't think he would have chosen to marry Selyse. When would he have ever met her? It's not like he was a fan of the Reach in the first place, and the marriage of Stannis with House Florent reeks of a political move on the Iron Throne's part to keep the Tyrells in check after they sided against the rebels. It's surely not a coincidence that Stannis married a woman who happened to be related to the ancient rivals of House Tyrell. Maybe Robert didn't think of it himself, fine, but maybe Jon Arryn gave Robert the idea? It's not like Stannis was going to disobey or anything. Maybe he didn't bother complaining about it because he must have reckoned that he would have been unhappy with any woman he was made to marry, and he just didn't consider that he might develop feelings for his wife. Self-loathing is definitely a part of Stannis' character; he's always measuring himself as inferior to his big brother, and Robert loved to bully him about that as well. Plus then you have Robert being a highly popular man, and so Stannis becomes disillusioned with what most people find attractive. Plus, nobody was exactly interested in him, either for platonic or romantic reasons. 

 

This turned into a bit of a stream-of-conscious rambling, but I can make it work that Stannis wouldn't openly complain about an arranged marriage. He doesn't seem to have had any use for female sexuality until he met Mel.

That’s a good point. It’s not like nobles in Westeros would ever expect to have loving relationships with their spouses. Stannis probably doesn’t even think of it as a slight because he’s surrounded by people who are in shitty marriages.

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On 5/11/2021 at 3:08 PM, Kinola said:

How did we go from discussing wives for Stannis to arguing about who's committed the worst crimes?

Well...

The last time I was here: whenever Stannis was brought up, there would always always be discussion on whether Stannis was "bad" or not.

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