Loras Tyrell isn’t just a pretty little jouster

[Golden lion of The Rock]

So , even though Loras says that he’s better with a lance and his brother is better with a sword that doesn’t make him useless ( as several people claim ) . Firstly in an actual battle a lance is far more useful than a sword because of it’s ability to pierce through armour . And secondly Loras did come second in the Melee at Bitterbridge . 

[Universal Sword Donor]

Was this ever really a question? He's described as one of the best knights in the kingdom by multiple people

[divica]

6 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Was this ever really a question? He's described as one of the best knights in the kingdom by multiple people

Isn t he described as one of the best jousters? Even olenna wasn't quite dismissive him saying something like "loras is good at throwing people of their horses" 

[Canon Claude]

1 hour ago, Golden lion of The Rock said:

So , even though Loras says that he’s better with a lance and his brother is better with a sword that doesn’t make him useless ( as several people claim ) . Firstly in an actual battle a lance is far more useful than a sword because of it’s ability to pierce through armour . And secondly Loras did come second in the Melee at Bitterbridge . 

The books never claim that Loras is just a pretty gay jouster. You’re thinking of the abomination.

[Universal Sword Donor]

4 hours ago, divica said:

Isn t he described as one of the best jousters? Even olenna wasn't quite dismissive him saying something like "loras is good at throwing people of their horses" 

Yes but that would be part and parcel of being an amazing knight as well. He's renowned throughout the kingdoms.

[Lord Lannister]

I mean even as much as Cersei despised Loras, I don't even think she saw him as useless. Is this really a question?

[divica]

25 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Yes but that would be part and parcel of being an amazing knight as well. He's renowned throughout the kingdoms.

Yeah, but the idea that we are told seems to be that he is great on his horse with a lance.

On foot with a sword he shouldn't be anything special. Probably a competent swordsman. If I remember right he lost to brienne for example.

And I have no idea what are his abilities with a moningstar lol.

[Ran]

From Sports Illustrated:

Quote

SI.com: The athlete atop our athlete power list is LeBron James. Who is the equivalent of LeBron in your universe?

Martin: Well, LeBron James is the greatest active basketball player I suppose so the parallel in Westeros would be who is the greatest active swordsman. You can make a case for Jamie Lannister. You can make a case for The Hound or his brother Ser Gregor [Clegane] or Ser Loras [Tyrell], the Knight of Flowers. These are all first class Knights. Or even Ser Barristan The Bold [Sir Barristan Selmy]. These are all guys who are top at their own particular sport, which is swordsmanship and jousting, and all of the combat skills that attend knighthood.

He is almost certainly the best jouster in the realm at the start of AFfC/ADwD, and one of the best mounted combatants because of his great skill as a horseman being so exceptional, but he's also in the upper tier of fighters on foot as well but is not the best (he himself acknowledges that Garlan is a better swordsman, but Garlan looks like he's near the top of the ranks).

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

5 minutes ago, divica said:

Yeah, but the idea that we are told seems to be that he is great on his horse with a lance.

On foot with a sword he shouldn't be anything special. Probably a competent swordsman. If I remember right he lost to brienne for example.

And I have no idea what are his abilities with a moningstar lol.

That's more or less ... wrong from what we get in the book. For example he wasn't fighting on foot when he lost to Brienne, they were both on horses up until the moment she dragged him from the saddle. But here's GRRM:

I suppose so the parallel in Westeros would be who is the greatest active swordsman. You can make a case for Jamie Lannister. You can make a case for The Hound or his brother Ser Gregor [Clegane] or Sir Loras [Tyrell], the Knight of Flowers. These are all first class knights.

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

He is almost certainly the best jouster in the realm at the start of AFfC/ADwD,

So SI puts Lebron at the top. But im an nfl guy so lets input Tom Brady. The goat. The 7 ringed hero like the new gods of Tampa are looking out. But hes also the cheater. 

Do I doubt the skill of these athletes? Nah. Do I find it a little sus that they are constantly cheating? Ch'a.

2 hours ago, Ran said:

but he's also in the upper tier of fighters on foot as well but is not the best

Simultaneously fighting and killing two of his rainbow brothers is certainly not small potatoes

[divica]

34 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

That's more or less ... wrong from what we get in the book. For example he wasn't fighting on foot when he lost to Brienne, they were both on horses up until the moment she dragged him from the saddle. But here's GRRM:

I suppose so the parallel in Westeros would be who is the greatest active swordsman. You can make a case for Jamie Lannister. You can make a case for The Hound or his brother Ser Gregor [Clegane] or Sir Loras [Tyrell], the Knight of Flowers. These are all first class knights.

But look at the entire quote ran posted above

Quote

SI.com: The athlete atop our athlete power list is LeBron James. Who is the equivalent of LeBron in your universe?

Martin: Well, LeBron James is the greatest active basketball player I suppose so the parallel in Westeros would be who is the greatest active swordsman. You can make a case for Jamie Lannister. You can make a case for The Hound or his brother Ser Gregor [Clegane] or Ser Loras [Tyrell], the Knight of Flowers. These are all first class Knights. Or even Ser Barristan The Bold [Sir Barristan Selmy]. These are all guys who are top at their own particular sport, which is swordsmanship and jousting, and all of the combat skills that attend knighthood.

In loras case his sport is clearly jousting. In regards to swordmanship, while he shouldn't be awfull we know that his brother is better than him. And we are also told about other characters that should be great swordsman/fighters like darkstar and or greatjon. 

We have no reason to believe that loras is at the same level of other top guys in regards to swordmanship.

[Universal Sword Donor]

50 minutes ago, divica said:

But look at the entire quote ran posted above

In loras case his sport is clearly jousting. In regards to swordmanship, while he shouldn't be awfull we know that his brother is better than him. And we are also told about other characters that should be great swordsman/fighters like darkstar and or greatjon. 

We have no reason to believe that loras is at the same level of other top guys in regards to swordmanship.

He literally just called Loras one of the greatest active swordsmen. Being a top 5-6 swordsman in the realm literally makes him an amazing swordsman. There are something like 400K soldiers (estimate) in Westeros, and even if you just included nobles and knights in the count, he's top 5-6 out of tens of thousands. I honestly can't tel if you're trolling or not.

He names him as one of 3 strong fighters:

Warriors and Knights: he told me that he was sort of fed up when people wrote to him asking "who's the strongest fighter? Who's the best? Etc." He explained to me that there are some very strong fighters, he only mentioned 3: the 2 Cleganes and Loras

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1264

[Minsc]

5 hours ago, divica said:

If I remember right he lost to brienne for example

He loses to Brienne when she channels her ancestor and turns the melee into a wrestling match.  Before that he had disarmed her and was raining down on her with his blunted ax.  If it had been an actual combat his ax likely would have cleaved into her before she jumps onto him.

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

Wasn't Loras also part of the Vanguard that crushed Stannis in the battle of the Blackwater? Yeah, his brother led it, but this means he's probably been blooded. Not to mention he's the one who went to take Dragonstone, and despite what has been said about his condition, I doubt he was actually that badly hurt. More likely the Tyrells foresaw the trail by combat and didn't want Cersei to be able to choose Loras was her champion.

[Ran]

10 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

Wasn't Loras also part of the Vanguard that crushed Stannis in the battle of the Blackwater?

Yes. GRRM said he performed prodigious feats of arms during the battle. 

 

[divica]

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

Yes. GRRM said he performed prodigious feats of arms during the battle. 

 

but he could have done it on horseback with a lance. At least that would make sense for the vanguard...

[Ran]

Just now, divica said:

but he could have done it on horseback with a lance. At least that would make sense for the vanguard...

Well, yes, but lances don't tend to last a bunch of charges, and unlike a tourney he's unlikely to be handed a replacement for a broken lance. He may not have drawn a sword -- maybe he had a longaxe hanging from the saddle, or a morningstar -- but still, he fought briliantly.

I'm not quite sure why you're opposed to Loras being a great swordsman. GRRM's quote does mention jousting and swordsmanship both, but what he starts with was just "active swordsman" when he rattles off the list, and then expands on the fact that of course these great knights train in many weapons and their skills apply to greater and lesser degree among these weapons.

 

[divica]

13 minutes ago, Ran said:

Well, yes, but lances don't tend to last a bunch of charges, and unlike a tourney he's unlikely to be handed a replacement for a broken lance. He may not have drawn a sword -- maybe he had a longaxe hanging from the saddle, or a morningstar -- but still, he fought briliantly.

I'm not quite sure why you're opposed to Loras being a great swordsman. GRRM's quote does mention jousting and swordsmanship both, but what he starts with was just "active swordsman" when he rattles off the list, and then expands on the fact that of course these great knights train in many weapons and their skills apply to greater and lesser degree among these weapons.

 

Because we are talking about someone that at 15 defeated jaime in a joust. If we consider that he is as good with a sword as he is a jouter then we would be talking about another arthur dayne. Maybe even better. And what can be said about his brother that is an even better swordsman?

In my mind it makes sense that loras can be a prodigy jouster, but if he is a prodigy all around we would be talking about someone on another level. There should be more awe when people talk about him or garlan. 

[Minsc]

2 hours ago, divica said:

In my mind it makes sense that loras can be a prodigy jouster, but if he is a prodigy all around we would be talking about someone on another level. There should be more awe when people talk about him or garlan. 

Why can't Loras be a prodgy all around like Jaime or Dayne?  Jaime thinks Loras reminds him of how he was when he was younger.

[divica]

9 minutes ago, Minsc said:

Why can't Loras be a prodgy all around like Jaime or Dayne?  Jaime thinks Loras reminds him of how he was when he was younger.

Because we aren't talking about someone being a excelent for his age.

We are saying that a 15 year old loras is as good as a 30 year old jaime. That means that when loras is 20 or 25 he will be much better than prime jaime.