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Thomaerys Velaryon

How to reconcile these quotes with the current canon ?

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The way I understand it, GRRM did not have a complete Targaryen family tree until he worked on The World of Ice and Fire (published in 2014). Until then we had disjoint information about the Targaryens of the past but nothing concret to link them all. I stumbled on two sentences in the books published before TWOIAF and I was wondering how/if we can reconcile them with the current canon established in TWOIAF (the retcon for Jaehaerys I's children from Fire & Blood does not matter here).

 

First, this line from A Clash of Kings, Catelyn II (published in 1999):

Quote

Renly shrugged. "Tell me, what right did my brother Robert ever have to the Iron Throne?" He did not wait for an answer. "Oh, there was talk of the blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryen, of weddings a hundred years past, of second sons and elder daughters. No one but the maesters care about any of it. Robert won the throne with his warhammer." 

In the current canon the blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryen includes:

  1. Lord Orys Baratheon was half-brother to the Conqueror trio.
  2. Lord Rogar Baratheon married Alyssa Velaryon, the widow of King Aenys I Targaryen.
  3. Jocelyn Baratheon married her half-nephew Prince Aemon Targaryen.
  4. One of the Four Storms, the daughters of Lord Borros Baratheon, was briefly betrothed to Prince Aemond Targaryen.
  5. Unnamed daughter of Lord Lyonel Baratheon was briefly betrothed to Prince Duncan Targaryen.
  6. Lord Ormund Baratheon married Princess Rhaelle Targaryen.

I know Renly was probably not the best when it comes to historical accuracy but when it comes to his own House and the royal House one would assume he knows what he is talking about.

Could GRRM produce other Baratheon-Targaryen weddings in the future ? Vaella, Maegor, Daella, and Rhae are available. Or one of Elaena Targaryen's Penrose children marrying their Baratheon overlord perhaps ?

 

Second, this line from The Hedge Knight (published in 1998):

Quote

Good King Daeron had four grown sons, three with sons of their own. The line of the dragonkings had almost died out during his father's day, but it was commonly said that Daeron II and his sons had left it secure for all time.

When we realize Daeron's father was King Aegon IV Targaryen, the most prolific progenitor in the entire Targaryen family tree (bastards included), this line makes absolutely no sense. Sure in the end Aegon IV only had Daeron and Daenerys as trueborn children but I wouldn't call that a line that "almost died out". Also even if Viserys II/Aegon IV's legitimate line were to be completely gone, Elaena and her multiple children were around as well as the Velaryon and Hightower children of Baela and Rhaena Targaryen.

 

Do you guys have an idea how to reconcile the existing canon and those quotes ?
@Lord Varys @Rhaenys_Targaryen @The Wondering Wolf @Nittanian @Potsk @Ran @The Dragon Demands @The Grey Wolf

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46 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

I know Renly was probably not the best when it comes to historical accuracy but when it comes to his own House and the royal House one would assume he knows what he is talking about.

GRRM has previously remarked on this. I doubt this feelings have changed.

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I've gone on record being quite annoyed with that on a number of occasions. And there are ways to reconcile this.

1. Add some more daughters to the Targaryen family tree:

The first branch of the family that springs to mind would be the so far nameless son of Aemond Targaryen and Alys Rivers. If my theory is correct that Alys and her son will hold Harrenhal until around 150 AC until shortly before Harrenhal is given to Lucas Lothston by Aegon III (and there are numerous hints in FaB that this is what's going to happen) then Aemond's boy will live long enough to marry and have children of his own. He could have an elder daughter who ends up marrying a son of Royce Baratheon.

Another possibility would be to change the marital status of Daeron I and give him a wife (possibly a younger daughter Baela and Alyn) and a posthumous daughter who ends up being married into House Baratheon. This could be especially fun if Daeron's queen wasn't even aware of the fact that she was pregnant by the time of Baelor's coronation because no month passed between the conception of the child and Daeron's death in Dorne. This could include one of the more fun succession the Capets face in Maurice Druon's series.

Then there is potential for legitimized bastards of the house, especially the daughters of Aegon IV, namely Mya and Gwenys Rivers, Bloodraven's sisters. The elder could have married into House Baratheon.

2. Give more marriages to surviving dowager queens:

Equally interesting would be the case of some of the (potential) dowager queens remarrying after their king's death, most notably Daenaera Velaryon (who for all intents and purpose should outlive Aegon III considering her age) but also Aelinor Penrose. For Aelinor we can assume a Targaryen ancestry since she is Aerys I's cousin on the Targaryen and not the Martell side of the family, i.e. a descendant of either Baela-Alyn or Rhaena-Garmund. But in 'wider sense' Daenaera Velaryon would also count as a woman with Targaryen blood. And the fact that both women married into the royal house would make them Targaryens in the same sense Alyssa Velaryon was a Targaryen woman when she married Rogar Baratheon (which was symbolized by her wearing Targaryen colors and all).

My favorite scenario for Daenaera Velaryon, though, would be that Viserys II marries his late brother's wife at some time during the reign of Daeron I or Baelor the Blessed to tie the family stronger together. They could have a daughter together who ends up with the Baratheons. But a scenario where a widowed Daenaera ends up with Royce Baratheon is also possible.

Dowager queens is interesting regardless whether they end up with House Baratheon. George should do some of this, no matter what.

3. Do something more with existing Targaryen women:

The best candidate for our scenario here would be Daena the Defiant. She is an elder daughter, after all. We know she apparently dies early, but she could die in childbirth after marrying Royce Baratheon's second son, say, who eventually succeeds to Storm's End. Such an unprestigious match for her could have been the punishment for her giving birth to a bastard. It could also be done by Aegon IV to separate her from Daemon Waters.

Others would include Vaella the Simple - who could end up being the mother of Ormund Baratheon - or Daenora Targaryen, who could also be the mother of Ormund after Aerion's death (although she wouldn't be an elder daughter). The same could work with Daella or Rhae Targaryen - although I doubt that either marry into House Baratheon since that would mean the Baratheons were already very closely related to Egg's branch of the family when he made matches for his children.

4. The fate of Targaryen women through the female line:

There we would have the six daughters of Garmund and Rhaena, the children of Baela and Alyn - and the grandchildren of those couples one of which seems to be Aelinor Penrose - as well as the children of Elaena and Ronnel Penrose. Their eldest daughter, Laena Penrose, could easily enough have married into House Baratheon. And she would, most likely, have the blood of the dragon on both sides of the family, being descended on her father's side from Laena Velaryon, Alyn and Baela's daughter, and on her mother's side from Elaena and Aegon III.

But we could also think of Daenerys' Martell children, some of which might be daughters, as well as daughters of Lord Viserys Plumm.

I think I covered all those possibilities. I think George should go with some of them, so that Renly's claim doesn't look completely outlandish. It is pretty bad as it is, considering he seems to have forgotten his own Targaryen grandmother which is just silly.

I also didn't like George using the same silly Baratheon with Borros 'I've no idea who my aunt was' Baratheon. Sure, he was sucking up to Aemond, but making your own aunt your great-aunt is just silly. If you don't give a damn about her, just say so, and don't tell fairy-tales.

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Posted (edited)

i've discussed the "almost died out" thing before. https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/i8z135 I believe that is one of the many thing grrm changed since THK because he didn't have a clear idea back then.

As of THK, there were no Blackfyres, and Viserys was Aegon iii's son. If you calculate the ages from Daeron I to Daeron II with the old tree in AGOT, you'll find every generation has to die in his 20s. https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/9kh570/

So Aegon IV probably didn't have those bastards back then. Raising Viserys by a generation, with the death year fixed, added 20+ years of life to Aegon IV and Daeron II. Perhaps, the blackfyre plot was born when grrm was wondering what did they do during those extra 20 years.

Similarly i believe grrm changed his plan about the Baratheon marriage. He didn't know when they married back in 1999, but certainly not as near as two generations ago.

 

 

Edited by zionius

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46 minutes ago, zionius said:

i've discussed the "almost died out" thing before. https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/i8z135 I believe that is one of the many thing grrm changed since THK because he didn't have a clear idea back then.

Yeah, although that quote still sort of works. It is weird in light of all the legitimized bastards now, especially the Blackfyres, but strictly they weren't legitimized yet during the reign of Aegon IV, and that guy really had trouble fathering children on his sister-wife.

That said, timeline-wise it is still off since Daeron II started having his four sons before his father even ascended the Iron Throne.

And, yes, the Unworthy's bastards would have been a later invention. They were definitely not there yet back when George wrote the original Targaryen appendix. The Martell-Targaryen double wedding also is something that grew out of the entangled family tree situation in the wake of THK. Originally, it was intended that the Dornish union was just accomplished by Daeron II marrying Myriah, possibly during his reign not decades before. The entire Daenerys thing is a later addition so that another marriage can happen during Daeron II's actual reign.

46 minutes ago, zionius said:

Similarly i believe grrm changed his plan about the Baratheon marriage. He didn't know when they married back in 1999, but certainly not as near as two generations ago.

I'd definitely assume that the Rhaelle-Ormund match wasn't a thing yet when George wrote ACoK.

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48 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That said, timeline-wise it is still off since Daeron II started having his four sons before his father even ascended the Iron Throne.

In agot timeline, Daeron is not mature when Aegon iv died. They both died at 20s.

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3 minutes ago, zionius said:

In agot timeline, Daeron is not mature when Aegon iv died. They both died at 20s.

Yes, I meant that a new interpretation of that quote cannot be fully brought into accord with the Targaryens nearly dying out during the reign of the Unworthy.

If Daenerys was a later addition and we have no bastards then it is just Aegon IV, Naerys, and Daeron II after the death of Viserys II since, presumably, Aegon III's unknown third son would have died without issue.

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I think Viserys II was the father of Aegon III's children.
Aegon III was probably gay.
There is some evidence in fab that suggests this, I find it hard to believe that he started being attracted to women at the age of 23.
When larra rogare left, viserys 17 year old never took a second wife, this is because he got close to daenaera after his wife left, daenaera was not against it because his husband did not touch her.

This explains why Martin completely removed Aegon III's line from the Targaryen royal family succession. 
No current Targaryen has the blood of Aegon III and Daenaera Velaryon.
Their "children" are bastards.
This also explains why Aegon III's daughters did not contest the ascension of Viserys II as monarch because they know he is their real father. 
Elaena even named her bastard Viserys.

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Hug-hammer said:

This also explains why Aegon III's daughters did not contest the ascension of Viserys II as monarch because they know he is their real father. 

I don't think that conclusion fits at all, given GRRM describing Daena the Defiant always wearing black in emulation of her father, and in particular this:

Quote

No matter how she was dressed, however, she always wore the golden three-headed dragon pendant she had inherited from her father. At court she wore it on a fine golden chain; when in disguise, she hung it on a leather thong and hid it beneath her clothes. Supposedly she even wore it when bathing, and when making love.

Daena clearly knew Aegon III was her dad.

After the Dance and all, there was no longer any real room for women to contest for the Iron Throne, especially in the face of the long-running Hand of the King who was his brother's heir and could and would take the Iron Throne seamlessly. 

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@Hug-hammer I disagree completely.

Hints of Aegon III being gay in Fire and Blood ? Where ?

If you are refering to him being close to Gaemon Palehair, may I remind you we are talking about a severly traumatized 10 year old boy who just lost pretty much his entire family. Then a boy who remind him of his lost younger brother shows up, of course Aegon would play with him and like his company, that doesn’t make him gay.

Also, Daenaera was 6 when they married it seems normal to me Aegon waited before having sex with her.

About Aegon’s daughters not contesting Viserys II’s ascension to the throne, well Daena the Defiant did! She simply did not have enough political power after her time in the Maidenvault to succeed.

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4 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

@Hug-hammer I disagree completely.

Hints of Aegon III being gay in Fire and Blood ? Where ?

 

The contents of Samantha Tarly's letter asking if the king prefers men to women.
The letter was destroyed.
And the ship that was to escort Aegon and Viserys is called "gay abandonment."
Martin likes to make insinuations about ships.
It's like the Maiden's Fancy, Rhaena's ship and those <<favorites>>.

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23 minutes ago, Ran said:

I don't think that conclusion fits at all, given GRRM describing Daena the Defiant always wearing black in emulation of her father, and in particular this:

Daena clearly knew Aegon III was her dad.

After the Dance and all, there was no longer any real room for women to contest for the Iron Throne, especially in the face of the long-running Hand of the King who was his brother's heir and could and would take the Iron Throne seamlessly. 

Thanks, I didn't really remember that part.
 Although the dance injuries surely contributed to wanting to keep women out of the succession.
According to the laws of daena inheritance is these sister have a more powerful claim than viserys ii, later the blackfyre will use this to strengthen their legitimacy. 
 This can be seen after the death of Prince Rhaegel for example.
Aerys i designated his little niece Aelora as his heir, far ahead of his little brother Maekar and his sons. 
So the dance did not really change the laws of inheritance within the royal family.

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There is no reason at all why Aegon would have wanted Viserys to father children on Daenaera. Viserys had children on his own who could have continued the line (as they actually did in the end). Aegon was delighted by Daenaera's look and they had their first child when she was 16, so she probably got pregnant at the age of 15. But maybe Viserys II was gay? He was on that ship, as well, and did not remarry after Larra died. On a more serious note, there are no hard hints for Aegon being gay. He was distant to almost everyone and the ones he warmed up to were two boys (a brother and a companion) and two girls he was supposed to marry.

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Posted (edited)

@Hug-hammer

If you want to go meta about that ship, then I would rather argue it was called "Gay Abandon" because Aegon was never the same after that day and didn't felt joy anymore.

No joy = gay abandon.

Edited by Thomaerys Velaryon

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Guys, Daenaera is just six years old at her wedding, it would have made sense for Aegon III to wait for her to have children for about ten years - and that's what he did. Daeron was born in 143 AC, when his mother was barely sixteen. This claim from TWoIaF that King Aegon III waited long to bed her after she flowered isn't all that true ... what he did was to wait until chances were good that a pregnancy wouldn't kill his young wife or impede her health like it his own grandmother, Queen Aemma.

Daenaera would have flowered with 12-13 or so, so this wasn't really a big deal.

And Aegon III producing five children despite his depressing character over a period of seven indicates he had a pretty healthy sex life.

But then - as I said - a widowed Daenaera Velaryon would also make a very fine second wife for Viserys II. Assuming she survived her five pregnancies and didn't die of any other causes she would have been only thirty years old in 157 AC when Aegon III died. Not old enough to retire and do nothing with her life. Such a union could also have smoothed the eventual ascension of Viserys II to the Iron Throne - because Daenaera could also have been still there in 171 AC, when she would have been barely forty-four years old.

As for the succession of Baelor:

There are way to make that entire thing more convincing ... by having Viserys II marry Daena. That could have happened without us knowing it so far ... or they could have made plans to do it and then the king died before the appointed date.

Viserys II would have been the first widower ascending the Iron Throne and, if we think about real world (medieval) monarchy, this is pretty much anathema. A king needs a queen, regardless how he personally feels about his long-dead true love, etc. Queens do fulfill a lot of ceremonial functions in a monarchy aside from producing royal children. He would have either remarried in preparation for his eventual power grab - which would have been on the table the moment King Baelor became a septon and thus ensured he would never have heirs of his own body - or he would have been pushed to it when he became king.

Marrying Daena could allow her to get as close to the throne as she possibly could without actually being queen while at the same time ensuring she married nobody else - which, bastard or not, she would do after she got out of her prison. And that could mean trouble for Viserys II and his children and grandchildren because Dance and Great Councils and whatever else aside ... an ambitious lord could use her claim to start another succession war. And the Targaryens no longer had dragons to keep such folks in check.

But then - the entire scenario of there being a dispute about the succession after Baelor's death makes no sense. The king had annulled his marriage and ensured he would never have trueborn children when he took the vows of a septon. Meaning King Baelor must have ruled on his own succession early in his reign or else the Realm would have been in constant uncertainty about the succession. I mean, Baelor the Blessed is the guy who went to Dorne on foot in the first year of his reign - that alone would have necessitated that he name an heir in case anything happened to him. And after he nearly died in the viper pit and was incapacitated for weeks or months his council and court would have realized that the royal succession was a rather important question to settle. I mean, this is the world where the Young King Viserys has to rule on his succession two years after his ascension despite the fact that he has all the time in the world to remarry and have a veritable army of sons. And later childless Aerys I also names multiple heirs ... but we are to believe that Blessed Baelor never thought about his own death, the day he would finally face the judgment of the Father? Not very likely.

Add to that the fact that Baelor's brother Daeron I had been murdered and Baelor was the last of the sons of Aegon III it gets even more obvious that folks wouldn't have ignored or forgotten this problem.

Insofar as his uncle was concerned we can assume Baelor wanted to succeed - if he had wanted his sisters as his heirs he would have neither divorced Daena nor would he have imprisoned them or barred them from marrying to continue the royal bloodline.

Whether Baelor wanted Aegon to succeed him is a completely different question, though. That may have been a problem for him. And since one assumes he didn't intend to rule only ten years, king and court would not have expected the old man to outlive the young king.

And, yes, the widower situation also involves King Maekar. He should have remarried, too, never mind the number of children he had by his late wife. A king needs a queen.

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2 hours ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

@Thomaerys Velaryon

I had to make a new account. Anyway, @Lord Varys covered pretty much everything. All I would add is that GRRM could simply give the Targ kings more daughters. (Honestly, Viserys II and Maekar I both being lifelong widowers doesn't make much sense.)

Yes, that was also part of my idea above. Which could be done by ways of giving Daeron I a wife and a posthumous daughter, and by ways of Viserys II remarrying.

Maekar I'd like to remarry, too, but he could just take his widowed sister-in-law Aelinor Penrose as his second wife, so she could continue in her role as queen ... and by 221 AC she could be well beyond her childbearing years, so Maekar's children - he had more than enough heirs when he became king - would not have to multiply even more despite the fact that he had another wife.

But the easiest way to resolve the Baratheon issue would be by ways of marrying Daena or Bloodraven's eldest sister to a younger son of House Baratheon whose line would eventually inherit Storm's End. And it would be truly awfully convenient if none of those women ever married. Especially in Daena's case this would be very hard to swallow.

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@Lord Varys I'm a bit bummed if the Targaryen lineage presented in TWOIAF turns out to be incomplete but then again it already is given the Fire & Blood retcon about Jaehaerys I's children. Adding new Targaryen children/marriages to the canon to better fit the story would make sense.

The candidates for a new marriages I agree with:

  • Daenaera Velaryon is too beautiful and young to not have suitors after Aegon III's death.
  • Deana the Defiant could marry an important lord in the 180s AC and slowly gaining power behind the scenes for her son prior to the First Blackfyre Rebellion.
  • Aegon IV was a widower for the last 5 years of his life. Obviously he had his mistresses, but I think someone like Aegon would like to have a wife of his choosing in the end. Plus given how corrupt the court was during his reign, I doubt the execution of Lord Bracken was enough to prevent ambitious lords to try to have Aegon marry their daughters after Naerys' death.
  • Aelinor Penrose's marriage to Aerys I was rumored to not have been consummated. I think people would be interested in marrying the "untouched" King's widow, especially since she had some Targaryen blood herself.
  • Maekar I outlived Dyanna Dayne for more than 20 years. It would make sense for him to remarry but I can see GRRM deciding not to and thus creating a parallel with Tywin Lannister (who should have remarry after Joanna's death).

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