How to reconcile these quotes with the current canon ?

[Ran]

George has not changed the marriages of the kings since the 2000s, outside of fiddling with names and adjusting for the Dance era. The kings who didn't marry or remarry will be explained, and that's just how it will be.

[Lord Varys]

33 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

@Lord Varys I'm a bit bummed if the Targaryen lineage presented in TWOIAF turns out to be incomplete but then again it already is given the Fire & Blood retcon about Jaehaerys I's children. Adding new Targaryen children/marriages to the canon to better fit the story would make sense.

The tree is definitely incomplete - with Jaehaerys I's children it turned out to be wrong, which is another more unfortunate problem.

The Rhaena-Androw marriage was missing from the original tree, and the total number of the children of Baela and Rhaena are missing from the tree - in part, perhaps George didn't figure it out already, but since it seems clear that Aelinor Penrose is related to Aerys I through either of those two bloodlines it stand to reason that the connections are there, at least.

They may not have made it into the tree due to space constraints, etc. ... but with FaB I only containing half the family tree, a subsequent family tree for Rhaenyra-Daemon-Laena's descendants could include more details than the TWoIaF tree did - for instance, reflecting how we get from, say, the second Laena Velaryon to Aelinor Penrose, if that's how the bloodline goes.

And then there are curious absences like the hypothetical children of Jenny and Duncan. It would have been so easy to add a half-sentence stating their marriage remained childless, but this is not confirmed in the book. The same goes for Vaella the Simple, Prince Maegor and his mother Daenora - who would also have been very young when Aerion died.

And effectively confirmed marriages and issue are missing for both daughters of Maekar. We do know both married and had children.

But for our Baratheon quotes dilemma the best solutions would be via the elder sister of Bloodraven or Daena the Defiant. Because both fit the bill of Renly's quote about 'elder daughters'.

To come up with a second son of House Targaryen marrying a hypothetical ruling Lady of Storm's End from whom Robert and his brothers are descended would be much more complicated.

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The candidates for a new marriages I agree with:

• Daenaera Velaryon is too beautiful and young to not have suitors after Aegon III's death.

Yes, if she doesn't predecease Aegon II she would have to remarry. Everything else would be very odd.

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• Deana the Defiant could marry an important lord in the 180s AC and slowly gaining power behind the scenes for her son prior to the First Blackfyre Rebellion.

Since she died young I'd also not be surprised if she died before 180 AC. And if she played a role in the Blackfyre thing TWoIaF should have elaborated on that. But unless she died in the early 170s she should have remarried.

But I really like my idea that plans were made to marry her to Viserys II after his ascension to the throne to prevent that there develop a rift in the family. They could have even planned that the king adopt Daemon Waters ... which would have been a rather funny situation for Aegon IV.

If Viserys II had ruled for another 10-15 years he could have easily outlived Aegon IV (remember, that Viserys had children at a very early age, so chances that they would necessarily succeed him were much lower than that Jaehaerys I be succeeded by his sons), and then the question of Daena and her sisters and their children could be raised again, especially if they had sons at that time.

If Daena had married a powerful lord as you suggest said powerful lord could have decided that his son was a better claimant to the Iron Throne than Dornish-loving Daeron, say. In such a scenario you would not even need Daemon Blackfyre to stir up trouble.

The phantom of such a development could have been avoided if Daena had become the queen at the side of Viserys II - just like a Dance could have been avoided if Rhaenyra had been married to Aegon the Elder.

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• Aegon IV was a widower for the last 5 years of his life. Obviously he had his mistresses, but I think someone like Aegon would like to have a wife of his choosing in the end. Plus given how corrupt the court was during his reign, I doubt the execution of Lord Bracken was enough to prevent ambitious lords to try to have Aegon marry their daughters after Naerys' death.

Here I'd differ. I think it is a problem to assume that Aegon IV never took a second wife considering his depravity, but remarrying after Naerys' death may have been problematic considering how the king's size and his declining health.

That said, there is the possibility for a secret marriage - George could easily enough turn Megette into a wife of Aegon's, sort of like Tysha was Tyrion's wife, with the mummer-septon story just being the story Viserys II decided was the truth afterwards. After Naerys' death Serenei of Lys could have been a secret wife of Aegon's. But the idea of Aegon taking another wife at that point for reasons of state - meaning a woman he didn't love/desire the way he did with his mistresses - seems not very likely.

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• Aelinor Penrose's marriage to Aerys I was rumored to not have been consummated. I think people would be interested in marrying the "untouched" King's widow, especially since she had some Targaryen blood herself.

Yes, but her age at that time would make it difficult for her to still carry children - hence the idea she could have married Maekar to continue as queen.

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• Maekar I outlived Dyanna Dayne for more than 20 years. It would make sense for him to remarry but I can see GRRM deciding not to and thus creating a parallel with Tywin Lannister (who should have remarry after Joanna's death).

Tywin wasn't a king, though, although him lacking a consort at the Rock would have also been somewhat strange. But then, he wasn't even at the Rock after Joanna's death until 281 AC, and one imagines that Genna and eventually Cersei sort of stepped in for Joanna.

The problem of not having a queen is more important, since a queen actually fulfills a function at a working court. At Maekar's court such a role could be fulfilled by Aelinor as a queen dowager as well as the aging Elaena (who was around until at least 220 AC, possibly longer) as well as by Rhaegel's widow Alys Arryn (if she outlived her husband) or even by Daeron's wife Kiera of Tyrosh.

But generally the thing is that love and grief may prevent a prince from remarrying ... a king really wouldn't have that luxury. He has a duty to his kingdom, and that doesn't only extend to producing heirs but also to have a wife to embody the ideals of the social order. The Father Above isn't a widower or bachelor, either, apparently.

The final problem in this entire scenario is absent Queen Shaera. She did survive Summerhall, so she should also be around during the reign of her son. She clearly is gone in the days of the truly Mad King, but one way for her to disappear would certainly be a second marriage, possibly one abroad. She was only thirty-six when Aerys II ascended the Iron Throne.

An interesting idea here could be her marrying into the Old Blood of Volantis, and Steffon's mission effectively being to look among Aerys II's half-siblings in Volantis for a suitable bride for Rhaegar. If Shaera was dead by then - which we should expect - then her Volantene husband may not have been very inclined to agree to such a match considering the reputation of the Mad King. Not to mention that it might turn out that Aerys II doesn't have any living/unmarried half-sisters at that point in time.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

George has not changed the marriages of the kings since the 2000s, outside of fiddling with names and adjusting for the Dance era. The kings who didn't marry or remarry will be explained, and that's just how it will be.

That seem to be correct. He turned Queen Aelinor Targaryen, a sister of Aerys I, into Aelinor Penrose, a cousin, for TWoIaF as well as settling on a Dayne for Maekar's bride.

The other two brides for Daeron's sons also came as surprises to you, unless I mistaken, although I'm aware those aren't wives of (future) kings.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 5/9/2021 at 2:04 PM, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

@Thomaerys Velaryon

I had to make a new account. Anyway, @Lord Varys covered pretty much everything. All I would add is that GRRM could simply give the Targ kings more daughters. (Honestly, Viserys II and Maekar I both being lifelong widowers doesn't make much sense.)

Both had multiple heirs, and especially Viserys II would still have the memory of the Dance of the Dragons fresh in the back of his mind, where struggle between the King's child by his first wife and his children by his second wife caused a devastation across the land.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Both had multiple heirs, and especially Viserys II would still have the memory of the Dance of the Dragons fresh in the back of his mind, where struggle between the King's child by his first wife and his children by his second wife caused a devastation across the land.

He also had the more recent memory in the forefront of his mind about his royal brother and his two royal nephews going into an early grave. In 171 AC House Targaryen is down to Viserys II, his son living an unhealthy lifestyle, and a not very impressive grandson who might be better suited to be the Prince Consort of Dorne than sitting the Iron Throne. Even if you ignore the fact that the kingdom would need/want a queen, there was a dynastic need to that - Aegon and Naerys were not that likely to have more children.

A fifty-year-old Viserys II remarrying would have to have no fear that any children by his second wife would ever be in a position to challenge their half-brother and his descendants. Viserys II would be about sixty-six when any such children came of age ... and Viserys II great-grandson Baelor would still be older than them.

And the problem that remains is that of Daena. If she isn't married to Viserys II or any of his descendants then she could marry outside the family - and that, in turn, could then lead to a Dance-like scenario with Daena's children eventually challenging Viserys' descendants.

Viserys II taking the throne is like Baelon becoming heir instead of Rhaenys. It is another original insult which could eventually lead to a war further down the line.

The problem of the Dance wasn't so much a king remarrying ... but a king retaining his daughter as his heir after he had fathered multiple sons. Not to mention a king marrying an ambitious woman and handing the government to her father.