„Woke Culture“ is a child of Neo-liberal capitalism

[polishgenius]

 

13 minutes ago, Arakan said:

Oh I understand and I admitted that I was wrong to answer. Though I am just „the White guy“. Interesting. Why not just a person? I am not from the US. I don’t side with people based on ethnicity. 

Why are you allowed to dismiss people's arguments as just Americans but other people aren't allowed to return the favour?

 

1 minute ago, Arakan said:

But Mesut Özil as someone of Turkish origin suffered enough discrimination in Germany so that he shouldn’t be ridiculed like this. 

Yes because African-Americans famously suffer no discrimination in America, if that's why he gets a pass but LeBron doesn't.

[Zorral]

31 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

my big issue with most revolutionaries - they tend to have purity tests

Liz Cheney, a revolutionary purged by fellow revolutionaries? Or a Cold Warrior against Cuba's international terrorism? You decide! Tell us what you think at this undisclosed number, or on Face Book, Twitter and our account on Instagram! 

 

[Knight Of Winter]

Most recent debate within this thread just demonstrates how communities (for the lack of better world, for I think it's not particularly well-suited here) aren't monolith, and that none of its members can be realistically expected to represent the entire millions-large group. You don't hear terms "Californian" or "Irish community" thrown around, mostly because it's implicitly understood that both of them encompass a variety of individuals with radically different ideas, thoughts and experiences - and not one of them could claim to represent the entire group. I really see no reason to believe Native Americans should be any less diverse. Which is good. 

Also a follow-up question for @Fury Resurrected or anyone else who knows: is there any term by which all of US's indigenous population call themselves? In other words, is there an endonym for "Native Americans" ?

____

As for @Arakan  - for one, I applaud you for making this topic and kicking off this discussion which has since breached into countless more or less related tangents while retaining little of its original idea. So I'll roll back to your original post for a little bit. You obviously dislike "woke" way of thinking - which is fine. You also dislike capitalism and the exploitation it brings - which is also fine. But then you seek to bring these two with some common denominator, which where IMO your argument falls apart, for there's little to nothing tying them together. For example, you correctly posit that neo-liberal capitalism is based on extreme individualism; but fail to notice that lot of modern "progressivism" (I don't know if that's the correct term, but I don't know any better one and I think you'll get the gist) falls into the exact opposite: staunch collectivism, for it posits that the best way to look at people is though lens of group(s) which they belong to, along with said groups' status and historical context. There's no neo-liberal individualism in that, none at all.

Moving on, you claim that both lead to entitlement, which, even if it were true (and I think that's questionable, but will proceed for the sake of argument) really tells little of them. Two different causes leading to the same consequence doesn't speak much of the relation between the causes themselves.  E.g. both coronavirus and long sports' match lead to exhaustion, but that doesn't a priori mean there's any relation between the two. Or maybe it's the other way around - one cause with two different consequence - which, again, has the same problem.

[Week]

1 minute ago, Arakan said:

Do you know Mesut Özil? At least he took a stance, one of the few who could. I will surely not support Erdogan, a supporter of neo-liberal capitalism and rightwinger. By the way big ally of your country . 

But Mesut Özil as someone of Turkish origin suffered enough discrimination in Germany so that he shouldn’t be ridiculed like this. 

LeBron James, though, totally fair game to call him out as complicit in genocide. Have Black Americans not suffered enough discrimination? How does he deserve your ridicule by this new "woke" consideration?

[Arakan]

3 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

Really? Have you verified that every company you buy products from is not taking advantage of slave labor, or making money off the Chinese government? I shouldn't have to explain that one of the features of modern capitalism is that unless you're living off the grid in a hut you built with your bare hands, some of your money is trickling up to awful oligarchs.

Of all the people to criticize in this unfocused crusade of yours, you've picked Greta Thunberg, Elizabeth Warren, LeBron James, and Fury?

Don’t forget Biden, Rummenigge, Bayern Munich, Lady Gaga. Why should I pick Trump or rightwingers? They are despicable anyway and no one would expect anything else from them. 

Your first paragraph. You won’t believe it but this is what I did. I left my company and a good salary because too much blood money was involved. I live off the grid as much as possible. I sold my car, I sold my whatever I had. And I took a new job as post driver. I will never be rich (again), I won’t be able to travel abroad, maybe some will call me poor. but I don’t care because I can look in the mirror. Yes, I participate in society. 

[Arakan]

6 minutes ago, polishgenius said:Yes because African-Americans famously suffer no discrimination in America, if that's why he gets a pass but LeBron doesn't.

Deflection. 

[polishgenius]

2 minutes ago, Arakan said:

Deflection. 

 

I know, that's why I called you out for it.

[DMC]

8 minutes ago, Week said:

LeBron James, though, totally fair game to call him out as complicit in genocide. Have Black Americans not suffered enough discrimination? How does he deserve your ridicule by this new "woke" consideration?

Well, he did sign with the Lakers.

[DanteGabriel]

2 minutes ago, Arakan said:

Your first paragraph. You won’t believe it but this is what I did. I left my company and a good salary because too much blood money was involved. I live off the grid as much as possible. I sold my car, I sold my whatever I had. And I took a new job as post driver. I will never be rich (again), I won’t be able to travel abroad, maybe some will call me poor. but I don’t care because I can look in the mirror. Yes, I participate in society. 

"As much as possible" eh? That tells me that you are complicit in at least some of the crimes if capitalism. You sold your car instead of giving it away to the poor? You profited off a transaction of a fossil fuel vehicle?

A post driver? You mean you're employed by the German government? Do I have to remind you of the sins of that government? Do you deliver packages to oligarchs? If you're not burning anything destined for, say, Nestle, you're insufficiently committed to the revolution, comrade.

Nuance for me and not for thee is a fun game.

[Arakan]

6 minutes ago, Week said:

LeBron James, though, totally fair game to call him out as complicit in genocide. Have Black Americans not suffered enough discrimination? How does he deserve your ridicule by this new "woke" consideration?

Yes. Because he indirectly is. And Mesut Özil is Not. Mesut Özil has his flaws (supporting Erdogan). But he spoke out against genocide while LBJ was fearing he would lose money and took the side of a genocidal regime. All of this is true whether you like it or not, it is true. 

Your second sentence is deflection and a way to frame me as something I am not. I EXPLICITLY spoke about LBJ, not Black Americans who I support in their fight against white oppression and racism. 

LBJ is not „Black Americans“.  

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 minutes ago, Arakan said:

Do you know Mesut Özil? At least he took a stance, one of the few who could.

So it is a get out of jail free card?

He said China bad.
That excuses him to support whatever right-wing dictator he wants.

3 minutes ago, Arakan said:

But Mesut Özil as someone of Turkish origin suffered enough discrimination in Germany so that he shouldn’t be ridiculed like this. 

Yeah and Lebron James suffered anti-black racism.

5 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

For example, you correctly posit that neo-liberal capitalism is based on extreme individualism; but fail to notice that lot of modern "progressivism" (I don't know if that's the correct term, but I don't know any better one and I think you'll get the gist) falls into the exact opposite: staunch collectivism, for it posits that the best way to look at people is though lens of group(s) which they belong to, along with said groups' status and historical context. There's no neo-liberal individualism in that, none at all.

Eh I would disagree on this.

Progressives like liberals tend to value very little government or social interference in ones private life and postulate individuals should be left to try figure things for themselves.

The progressive stance tends to say thing like you’re a woman you don’t have to aspire married to get married to a big manly man squirt out some kids and be  for the good of society. Heck you can fuck a thousand guys tie up your tubes and be idk like wrestler and  no one gets on you about it.

[Arakan]

4 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

"As much as possible" eh? That tells me that you are complicit in at least some of the crimes if capitalism. You sold your car instead of giving it away to the poor? You profited off a transaction of a fossil fuel vehicle?

A post driver? You mean you're employed by the German government? Do I have to remind you of the sins of that government? Do you deliver packages to oligarchs? If you're not burning anything destined for, say, Nestle, you're insufficiently committed to the revolution, comrade.

Nuance for me and not for thee is a fun game.

You can ridicule me I don’t care. I chose post driver because delivering someone’s Pakets or mail more often than not makes them smile. Of course I live so I eat and have to pay rent. Yes, I still participate in society so to speak. 

[Week]

1 minute ago, Arakan said:

Yes. Because he indirectly is. And Mesut Özil is Not. Mesut Özil has his flaws (supporting Erdogan). But he spoke out against genocide while LBJ was fearing he would lose money and took the side of a genocidal regime. All of this is true whether you like it or not, it is true. 

Your second sentence is deflection and a way to frame me as something I am not. I EXPLICITLY spoke about LBJ, not Black Americans who I support in their fight against white oppression and racism. 

LBJ is not „Black Americans“.  

You don't support LeBron James in his fight against white oppression and racism because ... he's rich? In fact, you actively attack him and demand that he prioritize a different, though very legitimate, crisis rather than the one that impacts his family and community.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

22 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Liz Cheney, a revolutionary purged by fellow revolutionaries? Or a Cold Warrior against Cuba's international terrorism? You decide! Tell us what you think at this undisclosed number, or on Face Book, Twitter and our account on Instagram! 

 

A scion of the prior regime, hiding in plain sight, who must be purged on the orders of Q.

[Arakan]

5 minutes ago, Arakan said:

Mesut Özil has his flaws (supporting Erdogan). But he spoke out against genocide while LBJ was fearing he would lose money and took the side of a genocidal regime. All of this is true whether you like it or not, it is true. 

@Varysblackfyre321
there is your answer. I don’t even like Özil because he supports US American ally and rightwinger Erdogan. But he called the genocidal regime out and lost dozens of millions as a result. But money is not everything in life. In this regard he showed backbone. LBJ did not. 

He of course is not the only one. Bayern Munich is no better. But I said that already. 

[Zorral]

5 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

A scion of the prior regime, hiding in plain sight, who must be purged on the orders of Q.

A winnah! We have ourselves ah winnah right here!  Pick up your stuffed animal of choice at the Green Market next Thursday.  Thank you.

[Arakan]

3 minutes ago, Week said:

You don't support LeBron James in his fight against white oppression and racism because ... he's rich? In fact, you actively attack him and demand that he prioritize a different, though very legitimate, crisis rather than the one that impacts his family and community.

Deflection and strawman. 
LBJ is the wrong person to fight oppression because he supports oppression. He has no credibility. 
Human beings are human beings no matter how they look or from where they are. He might have lost a few million dollar but he still has enough. He was in no existential money crisis  

May I ask from where you are?

[Week]

2 minutes ago, Arakan said:

Deflection and strawman. 
LBJ is the wrong person to fight oppression because he supports oppression. He has no credibility. 
Human beings are human beings no matter how they look or from where they are. He might have lost a few million dollar but he still has enough. He was in no existential money crisis  

May I ask from where you are?

Well, you really know how to win friends and influence people. Revolution must be nigh. FFS.

[Arakan]

33 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

Most recent debate within this thread just demonstrates how communities (for the lack of better world, for I think it's not particularly well-suited here) aren't monolith, and that none of its members can be realistically expected to represent the entire millions-large group. You don't hear terms "Californian" or "Irish community" thrown around, mostly because it's implicitly understood that both of them encompass a variety of individuals with radically different ideas, thoughts and experiences - and not one of them could claim to represent the entire group. I really see no reason to believe Native Americans should be any less diverse. Which is good. 

Also a follow-up question for @Fury Resurrected or anyone else who knows: is there any term by which all of US's indigenous population call themselves? In other words, is there an endonym for "Native Americans" ?

____

As for @Arakan  - for one, I applaud you for making this topic and kicking off this discussion which has since breached into countless more or less related tangents while retaining little of its original idea. So I'll roll back to your original post for a little bit. You obviously dislike "woke" way of thinking - which is fine. You also dislike capitalism and the exploitation it brings - which is also fine. But then you seek to bring these two with some common denominator, which where IMO your argument falls apart, for there's little to nothing tying them together. For example, you correctly posit that neo-liberal capitalism is based on extreme individualism; but fail to notice that lot of modern "progressivism" (I don't know if that's the correct term, but I don't know any better one and I think you'll get the gist) falls into the exact opposite: staunch collectivism, for it posits that the best way to look at people is though lens of group(s) which they belong to, along with said groups' status and historical context. There's no neo-liberal individualism in that, none at all.

Moving on, you claim that both lead to entitlement, which, even if it were true (and I think that's questionable, but will proceed for the sake of argument) really tells little of them. Two different causes leading to the same consequence doesn't speak much of the relation between the causes themselves.  E.g. both coronavirus and long sports' match lead to exhaustion, but that doesn't a priori mean there's any relation between the two. Or maybe it's the other way around - one cause with two different consequence - which, again, has the same problem.

My major sin was to use the wrong terminology. Virtue signaling would have been the better word. I will answer in more detail tomorrow. I am a bit exhausted. 

[Arakan]

2 minutes ago, Week said:

Well, you really know how to win friends and influence people. Revolution must be nigh. FFS.

Why do you attack me personally not the post. What I wrote? Argue against my argument not whether I know to win friends or not.