„Woke Culture“ is a child of Neo-liberal capitalism

[polishgenius]

1 minute ago, Ran said:

Let me put forward the less generous view: that you are a person with an agenda,

 

 

Let's be fair: of course Fury's got an agenda. She's not hiding it, she's telling it to us very clearly. Suggesting that she's trying to sneak something by us and others in manipulating labels is very unfair.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

I would hope in this debate that we are not losing sight of the fact that the Native peoples of this country are not a single interchangeable group.  There are members of the Navajo Nation, the Cherokee Nation, the Ojibwe, the Seminole, etc. etc. etc.  I imagine, though I am happy to be corrected, that members of those Nations first identify with that Nation.

[Arakan]

10 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

No I don’t. What I hate is redfacing. I hate that she can pretend to be of my culture and that that caused me to have to see an actual fucking President call her the name of a sexually trafficked indigenous child as a slur against her pretended race which is my actual race on TV over and over and over. And I hate that it allows people like you to assume that I agree with your opinion that asks indigenous people to shut up about our concerns when I DO NOT

What the fuck are you talking about. People like me? Who are people like me? Where the fuck did I say that indigenous people should shut up? WHERE? Where? 

People like YOU are the problem (as in person). You insult me when I have said nothing to you. What is this? 

[Fury Resurrected]

Just now, Arakan said:

What the fuck are you talking about. People like me? Who are people like me? Where the fuck did I say that indigenous people should shut up? WHERE? Where? 

People like YOU are the problem (as in person). 

I say people like you as you are not the first or last person to take my criticisms of Elizabeth Warren as agreement with their dislike of “woke culture” and “virtue signaling” and whatever bullshit buzzwords they choose to assign to people asking for common courtesy things like not being called terms they find offensive.

[Arakan]

Just now, Fury Resurrected said:

I say people like you as you are not the first or last person to take my criticisms of Elizabeth Warren as agreement with their dislike of “woke culture” and “virtue signaling” and whatever bullshit buzzwords they choose to assign to people asking for common courtesy things like not being called terms they find offensive.

You accused me that I told indigenous people to shut up! Where did I do this? Where? Show me!

[polishgenius]

3 minutes ago, Arakan said:

What the fuck are you talking about. People like me? Who are people like me? Where the fuck did I say that indigenous people should shut up? WHERE? Where? 

People like YOU are the problem (as in person). You insult me when I have said nothing to you. What is this? 

 

 

In fairness like, while you did to your credit roll it back later on, you started this topic with some very broad statements that could absolutely be interpreted as trying to dismiss protest culture entirely as not worth listening to, and in your response to Fury you very definitely misinterpreted what she was saying and put motives in her mouth. You can't really be surprised that she either skipped over or mistrusted the interim where you clarified your original intentions when you said something that could in the context of your first post very much be seen as 'we shouldn't talk about this really'.

[Fury Resurrected]

1 minute ago, polishgenius said:

 

 

In fairness like, while you did to your credit roll it back later on, you started this topic with some very broad statements that could absolutely be interpreted as trying to dismiss protest culture entirely as not worth listening to, and in your response to Fury you very definitely misinterpreted what she was saying and put motives in her mouth. You can't really be surprised that she either skipped over or mistrusted the interim where you clarified your original intentions when you said something that could in the context of your first post very much be seen as 'we shouldn't talk about this really'.

@Arakan, this post very helpfully explained it.

[Arakan]

Just now, polishgenius said:

 

 

In fairness like, while you did to your credit roll it back later on, you started this topic with some very broad statements that could absolutely be interpreted as trying to dismiss protest culture entirely as not worth listening to, and in your response to Fury you very definitely misinterpreted what she was saying and put motives in her mouth. You can't really be surprised that she either skipped over or mistrusted the interim where you clarified your original intentions when you said something that could in the context of your first post very much be seen as 'we shouldn't talk about this really'.

Come on. Why do you defend her? Where did I say what she accused me of? Yes, I made a mistake and I admitted it but this was days ago and had nothing to do with the discussion right now. Nevermind. 
 

 

[Arakan]

4 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

@Arakan, this post very helpfully explained it.

No it did not! You accused me of telling indigenous people to shut up. You know what how would you as an US American citizen like it when I accuse you of thousands of massacred people in Iraq or Afghanistan? Of supporting slave labor in Bangladesh due to the ridiculous consumerism in the US? Of supporting state terrorism in Pakistan or Jemen or Somalia via US drone strikes?

Would you like that? 
At least have the integrity to apologize for those accusations instead of doubling down! 

[Varysblackfyre321]

28 minutes ago, Arakan said:

Dante, my friend. ALWAYS. I mean I get fucking sick when I nowadays see „socially progressive“ ads from Amazon of all companies. It’s sickening.

Yeah business entities tap into sentiments they perceive as popular enough to exploit for their own benefit.

This by itself isn’t new and by itself isn’t worth complaining about.

The NBA still holds the national anthem for basketball ball games. Because they wanna appeal to people’s sense of national pride and get them conflating the product their selling as an act of showing that pride.

I don’t think there’s been a lot of outrage of this particular tradition of virtue signaling.

And it’s kinda pointless to.

1 hour ago, kiko said:

Not wanting to criticize anyone here in this thread. But the original claim of the thread starter was that all the fight for (can I say that?) interests of specific minority groups is a distraction from what @Arakan claims is the main fight which is social equality and justice for the oppressed masses. Yet here after 9 pages we discuss about semantics, the history of offensive words and who's podcast is not thoroughly progressive because they ignore important letters. This is certainly important - not denying that. But it obviously is distraction to the supposed all encompassing solution of all those social issues.

 

But here’s the thing though; there hasn’t been any specifics on how excactly the “woke” has significantly held back any class based action or reforms, policies. Mainly just complaints about companies trying to give themselves a more socially progressive aesthetic to appeal to a segment of their consumer base and insistence it’d divides the working class by virtue of acknowledging that not everyone is treated exactly the same way even in regards to class.

Those inequalities won’t suddenly dissipate once the great class revolution comes(or whatever).

[Arakan]

1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yeah business entities tap into sentiments they perceive as popular enough to exploit for their own benefit.

This by itself isn’t new and by itself isn’t worth complaining about.

The NBA still holds the national anthem for basketball ball games. Because they wanna appeal to people’s sense of national pride and get them conflating the product their selling as an act of showing that pride.

I don’t think there’s been a lot of outrage of this particular tradition of virtue signaling.

And it’s kinda pointless to.

But here’s the thing though; there hasn’t been any specifics on how excactly the “woke” has significantly held back any class based action or reforms, policies. Mainly just complaints about companies trying to give themselves a more socially progressive aesthetic to appeal to a segment of their consumer base and insistence it’d divides the working class by virtue of acknowledging that not everyone is treated exactly the same way even in regards to class.

Those inequalities won’t suddenly dissipate once the great class revolution comes(or whatever).

What about universal health care? Would be a huge step into a better direction wouldn’t it?

[Week]

2 minutes ago, Arakan said:

What about universal health care? Would be a huge step into a better direction wouldn’t it?

That is a political and implementation morass that need not be delved into here. Of course it would, theoretically, be better - I have no confidence in our current elected officials to pull it off in the US. Not really sure how it is germane to this discussion anyhow.

[Fury Resurrected]

1 minute ago, Arakan said:

No it did not! You accused me of telling indigenous people to shut up. You know what how would you as an US American citizen like it when I accuse you of thousands of massacred people in Iraq or Afghanistan? Of supporting slave labor in Bangladesh due to the ridiculous consumerism in the US? Of supporting state terrorism in Pakistan or Jemen or Somalia via US drone strikes?

Would you like that? 
At least have the integrity to apologize for those accusations instead of doubling down! 

Your original post absolutely advocates against members of minority groups and those who amplify their voices speaking on those topics. You may have backpedaled it after being called out but making that call and space for complaints against that is more impactful than the backpedal. The discussion has been full of people finding their five second Google searches to be more valuable to the lived experiences of members of the groups they search. Even your later posts communicated a sense of just not wanting to hear other groups challenge the status quo if it makes you uncomfortable. And there’s a ton of that in this thread from you and others and it is very exhausting for the couple of BIPOC to engage with. 

[Arakan]

You know what. NOW I make a generalization. One can identify quite easily (70-80% rate) who in this thread is US American. You can tell it by the absolute self-centeredness of those people, no matter ethnicity or race, as if the whole world circled around the US. The deep-ingrained exceptionalism, at least on a subconscious level. 

This in itself is a form of chauvinism and bigotry. As I said, no matter the ethnicity or race. those people I tell: the world has 8 billion people on this planet, your Nation makes up not even 3%! You are not the Center of the universe! You demand from all other people around the world to understand American sensitivities but you never show any attempt to understand people from other countries! @Fury Resurrected

[Arakan]

3 minutes ago, Week said:

That is a political and implementation morass that need not be delved into here. Of course it would, theoretically, be better - I have no confidence in our current elected officials to pull it off in the US. Not really sure how it is germane to this discussion anyhow.

??? The discussion is neo-liberal capitalism 

[polishgenius]

9 minutes ago, Arakan said:

Where did I say what she accused me of?

 

You didn't, but she's entitled to think you did. Especially since as she also explained that particular phrase is often used as a 'shut up don't talk' when trying to sideline discussion of minority issues. It's probably another second-language thing, and I can take some blame for it since you and I used 'virtue signalling' in its original meaning earlier in the topic without going on to how it's also misused, but trust her, and me, when we say that accusations of virtue signalling are often used by people wishing to paint someone who's got genuine arguments as not worth listening to to dismiss without engaging (and Warren certainly wasn't virtue signalling, at least not when claiming to be Native American). And it certainly shouldn't be expected of Fury to make sure that everyone she's interlocuting with speaks English as a first language.

And you did put words in her mouth, that's unquestionable.


 

Just now, Arakan said:

You know what. NOW I make a generalization. One can identify quite easily (70-80% rate) who in this thread is US American. You can tell it by the absolute self-centeredness of those people, no matter ethnicity or race, as if the whole world circled around the US. The deep-ingrained exceptionalism, at least on a subconscious level. 

 

 

I was trying to be even handed and I'm leaving the above message in but you cannot be serious. She's in here explaining all the ways she and hers struggle with continued American oppression and you accuse her of being that oppressor because she, at worst, misunderstood your intention when you misused a phrase. NOT okay.
 

[Arakan]

3 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

Your original post absolutely advocates against members of minority groups and those who amplify their voices speaking on those topics. You may have backpedaled it after being called out but making that call and space for complaints against that is more impactful than the backpedal. The discussion has been full of people finding their five second Google searches to be more valuable to the lived experiences of members of the groups they search. Even your later posts communicated a sense of just not wanting to hear other groups challenge the status quo if it makes you uncomfortable. And there’s a ton of that in this thread from you and others and it is very exhausting for the couple of BIPOC to engage with. 

BS! I did not back-pedal! I apologized for not proper wording it! Read my posts! 

Are you kidding me? I am uncomfortable with challenging the status quo? I would fucking fight in a revolution! I want this system to burn down! 

You are the proof! I am not American, English isn’t my first language and the whole world doesn’t revolve around YOU and your country. 

[DaveSumm]

7 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

The discussion has been full of people finding their five second Google searches to be more valuable to the lived experiences of members of the groups they search.

Just to remind you of the context; you dismissed HoI’s link because he didn’t immediately flag the bias that must exist due to the use of the term. Ran has pointed out that the term clearly doesn’t hold the same offence with many as it does with you. If we’re looking to see how widespread that offence is, then frankly a google search is more applicable here than any experience. For what it’s worth, I agree with you that logically, it should be held as an offensive term. But for whatever reason, that offence isn’t as widespread as you’re claiming. You can’t really think that there’d be museums and magazines that would use the term ‘n*gro’ today and not be in a world of shit.

[Zorral]

Face Book running ads on the WaPo pretending it cares about a better online regulation is equally sickening as amazilla pretending it gives effs about worker safety and health.

Is there anyone posting on this thread who is taken in by this?  Or believes it?  (Well, maybe one or two exceptions, who do not seem to live in the USA, coincidentally.  )

[Heartofice]

To get the conversation back on track, what I would say in response to an earlier comment is that I think there is a disconnect between the insular ‘talking to itself’ nature of progressive woke discussion and the rest of society and that can be so off putting as to prevent it getting the collective support it wants.

Eveyone should be on board with fighting racism and creating more equal societies, but those issues become more divisive than they need to be when you start doing things like jumping on people for not being completely up to date on the correct terms for things, or you start to shift the definition of racism away from one that most people generally understand. 
 

I don’t think it’s just a caricature of right wing YouTube hosts either, sure they jump on this stuff but they are given so much ammunition to do it with, it’s almost endless.